JF-17 "Extremely close" to the MIG-29: Mikhail Pogosyan

[Ping]

While the Mig-29 is marvelous piece of aerodynamic engineering and it is true the Archer slaved to the pilots helmet sights initially resulted in kills for the Mig-29. The German pilots should have qualified his statement by adding inside ten nautical miles in a low-speed, high alpha envelope. Of course considerable time has passed since the above event and both fighters have received significant upgrades. The F-16's that trained with German Migs did not have JHMCS and so the helmet mounted sights was a significant advantage for the Fulcrum. In addition, the F-16's flight computer restricts AoA to prevent departure from controlled flight. The Mig-29 imposes no such restriction, our pilots were quite impressed with how the Mig-29 upon departure elegantly returned to controlled flight when the stick was released.

The German pilot didn't mention anything about low speed. If anything, it was normal engagement where speeds were not fixed prior to the exercises. If they did increase the speed of engagement later on as claimed by USAF pilots, what makes you think the German didn't do it accordingly? With a higher TWR and a top speed higher than F-16, The Fulcrum could accelerate and decelerate at will compared to an F-16. Coupled with Superior High alpha performance and more instantaneous turn rate, the bets are off. Its no wonder F-16s ate 18 archers.

Outside of the slow turning regimes the German Fulcrums were very vulnerable.Our pilots quickly learnt to keep air speed above 300 knots, at that speed the Viper was able turn and burn a lot better than the Mig-29. This advantage is derived from the fly-by-wire and a highly responsive self tuning engine, both of which the German MIG-29 lacked. The German Mig-29 on the other hand was slow to respond to stick input, while the F-16 pilots enjoyed instantaneous stick response. There are other limitations of the German MIG-29, poor situational awareness from the need to take eyes off the target to look down at the radar display or toggle switches while the F-16 pilot employed shoot and scoot tactics. If the Mig-29 pilot was fortunate to survive the merge he often lost the F-16 while his eyes adjusted from looking at his instruments and switches to the view outside the cockpit, forcing the pilot to request Viper coordinates from ground control.

That's what the USAF pilots say in code one magazine. The German pilot didn't mention anything about that as an "handicap"... given the fact that a humans eyes can turn many degrees even if the head is in another position.

We let the German pilots brag and for a long time many believed the German Mig-29's "kicked F-16s a$$" and this is exactly what we wanted everyone to think-our pilots were explicitly ordered not to reveal details of the engagement.

So You let everyone believe F-16 was inferior. Yeah right!
If anything, those pilots are trying hard to brag in forums and code one magazine.
Bragging and USAF pilots go hand in hand, and I even have first hand experience of that talking to 2 pilots, on 2 different occasions.

This may be an Indian myth, not a Pakistani myth. We all are well aware and have seen the smoky nature of the RD-93s fitted in JF-17s, thus saying they don't smoke, well Indians may have made this up, we Pakistani members very much acknowledge the smoky nature of the engines, but definitely less smoky compared to original ones.

Ok. I thought someone mentioned RD-93 doesn't smoke.

Since you are new to the forum, just to let you know, we have on this forum some very senior as well as reliable and authentic members whose initial disclosures of few tit bits about JF-17 program came out to be true later on through official sources, reason being they know people from within the organization which is making JF-17 planes and have know how of the program, thus if they say the thrust of the variant JF-17 is getting is more then what is being publicly stated, it for sure is reliable for us, may be not for Indian members, which is very understandable. By the way we are not here to prove it to Indian members, we are here for our own learning and knowledge purposes and since these tit bits from such members has come true, there is nothing wrong in believing them, you guys can't, none of our problem, we are not here to make you guys believe it.

By the way, the RD-33MK series of engines came out way back in 2001, so why can't the RD-93 engines supplied much later have the same or near to specifications as RD-33MK ?? Who knows Russians may have provided the higher thrust version to us, but lower stats are being published for obvious reasons. So you guys keep thinking whatever you want and let us think what we want to.

If that's the case then they are wrong. Why would PAC display in farnborough a lower specs than reported by these senior members? So these senior members know more than PAC? I don't think so. In all my years, I have often seen fan boys exaggerate claims of their respective fighters, and only to drown in dis-belief when the official specs are revealed.

2001? What? MK received IOC only in 2005!
And Isn't it obvious? The Russians are dumping an old version of the engine to the chinese and marketing the Mig-29s with newer RD-33MK engines.

Then again, should we be taking what you have to say or the words of the pilot flying the JF-17 who would definitely know what he is talking about ??

And to just let you do some math, the loaded with weight of JF-17 is shown as 9,100KG, with full fuel + 2 wing tip missiles.

So now take out the piece by piece of this 9,100KG weight, you have empty weight of 6,411KG, 2,300KG fuel and the rest 389KG goes for the 2 wing tip missiles. So it means the missiles are being taken as approx 190KG per piece, isn't that too much for a WVR missile ?? It is, as the PL-5EII version being used on JF-17s weight just 83KG per piece, thus a massive reduction of the weight of the 2 wing tip missiles from 390KG to just about 166KG for 2 WVR missiles, a massive 223KG reduction in the weight for just wing tip missiles. From my calculation it seems, the weight of the wing tip missiles was taken for a BVR range missile which are in the 190-200KG weight category, as there is nothing else which can justify a 190KG wing tip missile.

So, now limited usage of composites has already started and it has led to few hundred KG further weight reduction, so with such massive weight reductions as demonstrated by the wing tip missile weight calculations, its very plausible that JF-17s TWR is more then 1, especially with the engine thrust to be little higher then what is expected by people on the forums.

Who said that the pilot said it was 1.1? Who was it? Does he have it in recording? And MOST IMPORTANTLY under what loaded conditions is it 1.1?


Empty weight is not 6,411kg, but 14,520lb or 6586kg as per the latest specs.

BTW, who said it was full fuel with 2 wing tip missiles? Apart from Wiki, there is no one else who is saying that. Infact, sino defence says-
Loaded weight: 9,100kg (without two wingtip missiles)
FC-1 (JF-17 Thunder) Multirole Fighter Aircraft - SinoDefence.com


Most probably the mentioned Empty weight is the Manufacturers empty weight and not the operational empty weight, which makes the JF-17 even the more heavier.

What is the myth about this ?? This is a statement which can be taken as what you like or want to hear. Twisting of some statement, what is the myth about this ?? Why are you Indians making myths from nothing ?? JF-17 giving Mig a run for its money is more then enough to tell what JF-17 has evolved into, which is a fact not myth, how you, we or the Russian news agency wants to portray it doesn't makes it a myth. We Pakistani members are well aware that Mig-29 is superior in certain aspects, while JF-17 holds its ground in certain others, it is for the operator to decide which one suits its better compared to its requirements and what the planes are offering.

If that is not a Myth, show me the quote from Pogoysan. Yes, the sentence which begins with a " and end with " which implies the said person has said exactly the same words. Please show me the quote and end this once and for all.

So buddy, don't make myths out of yourself, we Pakistani members have not made myths out of anything, so shouldn't you.

We have some very respected, senior and knowledgeable and even ex-PAF members and they know what they are talking about and what tit bits they give out about JF-17 regarding its specifications, we believe them, you guys can't, no worries, we are not forcing you to.

A Myth is something which is not backed up by facts. And also, its got nothing to do with Pakistani or Indian. If you have read my posts, you'd have noticed I apply the same principle when dealing with the hoards of Su-30MKI indian fan boys as well.

 

[Arsalan]

Military Strategy

JF-17 Thunder exports estimated at $5 billion
August 11, 2010 in Pakistan
Tags: JF-17 Thunders


Pakistani fighter Catic JF-17 Thunder has been demonstrated at an airshow in Farnborough.

It has attracted the interest of a number of countries including Azerbaijan.
JF-17 Thunder fighter was initially developed by Chinese engineers for the needs of the Pakistani army. First fighters JF-17 Thunder (Chinese FC-1 Saolun) were supplied to the Pakistani armed forces in 2007.

Now the project is entering a new level and the Chinese-Pakistani producers are searching ways to the international market.

Among potential customers who demonstrated interest to the innovation are Azerbaijan, Iran, Egypt, Turkey, Venezuela and a number of other countries.

Earlier, the press spread information about an agreement with Azerbaijan regarding the purchase of at least 24 JF-17 fighters estimated at about $17m each, which envisions the volumes of supply at about $500,000,000.

The JF-17 fighter is 14 m in length, the wing span is 8.5 m and it is equipped with RD-93 engine.

The capacity of the plane is 3720 kg, the battle radius at the fighter version is 1200 km, maximal flight range is 3000 km. It can be equipped with different types of air-air and air-land rockets, as well as air bombs.

regards

 

[Kompromat]

I still cannot figure out why TUAF is so interested in JFT.

 

[Arsalan]

I still cannot figure out why TUAF is so interested in JFT.

perhaps they are sensing its potential to do well in export market.
Turkey is/must be also well aware of PAF intentions to take this bird to next level and make it the main saty of AF in years to come.
with all the experience of Turkey with the F-16z and otehr modren US planes, Turkey can get a good market in term of JFT upgrades. you know every one love $$$

moreover with potentail exports, TUAF will be getting more and more upgrade and modification orders.

i dont see TuAF deploying JFT but there intreset must only be for Business reasons.

regards!

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

as they are eligible to modify and produce F-16s; as they are on board with F-35 project I doubt they have the need to induct JFT

Perhaps they would induct 5-10 for analysis, but I dont see the TuAF inducting them in squadrons. As they retire their aging Phantoms they will probably only use the 2 aircrafts listed above for their air defence and attack requirements

JFT is however a huge potential in other countries; and it has much to offer for good price. Most importantly there is much room for future upgrades and room for further joint ventures as international defence firms see opportunity for JFT development

 

[Kompromat]

Yes it would be real good to have TAI onboard this Program.

 

[TaimiKhan]

If that's the case then they are wrong. Why would PAC display in farnborough a lower specs than reported by these senior members? So these senior members know more than PAC? I don't think so. In all my years, I have often seen fan boys exaggerate claims of their respective fighters, and only to drown in dis-belief when the official specs are revealed.

What did PAC display at farnborough ?? I have not seen any official figures from Farnbrough so far, just simple pictures. Well you may have seen fan boys exaggerating, but on this forum, pshamim, muradk are those kind of members who don't exaggerate, as you are new and haven't studied much nor know about them, thus you have no idea about the authenticity of these members. Its very plausible that what is being given to Pakistan and what may be offered for export are two different products, just like avionics suite of PAF would be different compared to what will be offered for export. PAF has few systems of its own and western ones, while the export one may be all Chinese one or as per customer's request. Thus it is very likely that even engine specifications may be different for Pakistan and what will be offered for export.

2001? What? MK received IOC only in 2005!
And Isn't it obvious? The Russians are dumping an old version of the engine to the chinese and marketing the Mig-29s with newer RD-33MK engines.

Here plz see the official manufacturer site, it says Developed in 2001.

Klimov :: Production :: Aircraft Program :: RD-33MK

And wouldn't it be obvious to keep Pakistan a client, Russia may provide a more powerful version of the engine to Pakistan, while may have done a deal to provide lower specification engine for export purposes. Plus, we are not buying the engines blindly, after rigorous testing and evaluation the engine was finalized and as per latest reports PAF is quiet happy with the performance of the engine. Plus the engine re-export was allowed by Russian and if Russians are smart people and want to do business, they won't be providing old, unreliable version of the engines, as it will cause them more harm in the end compared to stopping export of JF-17s, as one way or another substitute for the engine would come in few years time. And as per what i see, Russians are smart not as dumb as Indian members might think.

Who said that the pilot said it was 1.1? Who was it? Does he have it in recording? And MOST IMPORTANTLY under what loaded conditions is it 1.1?

Here some of the members who are quoting it and you can ask them personally and see if it satisfies you.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-thunder/61184-paf-jf-17-farnborough-air-show-2010-a-45.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-thunder/68207-jf-17-thunder-multirole-fighter-thread-4-a-19.html

A non-PDF source: The SAAF Forum • View topic - Chengdu JF-17 vs Gripen

You can ask Mark Sien, pshamim, Black Blood and a non-Pakistan member who asked the pilots himself: http://www.defence.pk/forums/members/tempest-ii.html

Hope this is sufficient.

Empty weight is not 6,411kg, but 14,520lb or 6586kg as per the latest specs.

That chart you are referring to is from 2008 IDEAS held in Karachi where those specification were told and to me it seems more likely a typo error, instead of 14,220, 14,520 was typed as official and more reliable sources quote the 6,411Kg or 6,450KG empty weight. In my above post, links to official manufacturer website were posted which post the 6,411KG figure. Here, some more reliable and from official sources about the empty weight.

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex....

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex....

Specifications: FC-1 Xiaolong / JF-17 Thunder, China / Pakistan - Air Force Technology

The SAAF Forum • View topic - Chengdu JF-17 vs Gripen

A highly reliable and respected defence journalist and analyst: The JF-17 Thunder: A hefty punch at an affordable price.

And some of the below pictures from official sources would be saying this also.

BTW, who said it was full fuel with 2 wing tip missiles? Apart from Wiki, there is no one else who is saying that. Infact, sino defence says-
Loaded weight: 9,100kg (without two wingtip missiles)
FC-1 (JF-17 Thunder) Multirole Fighter Aircraft - SinoDefence.com


Most probably the mentioned Empty weight is the Manufacturers empty weight and not the operational empty weight, which makes the JF-17 even the more heavier.

Here plzz see the pictures from the PAC Kamra official site which clearly says the 9,100KG weight is with 2X wing tip missiles. You can click the above provided links of PAC and see what they are mentioning.

If that is not a Myth, show me the quote from Pogoysan. Yes, the sentence which begins with a " and end with " which implies the said person has said exactly the same words. Please show me the quote and end this once and for all.

A Myth is something which is not backed up by facts. And also, its got nothing to do with Pakistani or Indian. If you have read my posts, you'd have noticed I apply the same principle when dealing with the hoards of Su-30MKI indian fan boys as well.

Ok now here see this official Russian news agency item which was used to open this thread, who are quoting Pogosyan and not Pakistani members. Check 3rd para and see what the news agency had to say:

" The deal is facing opposition from Russian aircraft manufacturers, such as Mikhail Pogosyan, the head of the MiG and Sukhoi aviation holding, who said that the FC-1 is extremely close, if not the same, as the Russian-made MiG-29. Pogosyan claimed that FC-1 is a direct competitor to Russia's MiG-29 and the deal would incur losses for the Russian manufacturers. "

Made-in-China airplanes may undermine sales of Russian high quality jets - RT

So now the myth busted or still gonna go on the .......................

The " " is being quoted from the news agency who clearly mentioned Pogosyan, who said that, so its not we Pakistani members to have put the " ", its the source which is quoting him to have said it.


I think sufficient has been said and with much proofs.

 

[Ping]

What did PAC display at farnborough ?? I have not seen any official figures from Farnbrough so far, just simple pictures. Well you may have seen fan boys exaggerating, but on this forum, pshamim, muradk are those kind of members who don't exaggerate, as you are new and haven't studied much nor know about them, thus you have no idea about the authenticity of these members. Its very plausible that what is being given to Pakistan and what may be offered for export are two different products, just like avionics suite of PAF would be different compared to what will be offered for export. PAF has few systems of its own and western ones, while the export one may be all Chinese one or as per customer's request. Thus it is very likely that even engine specifications may be different for Pakistan and what will be offered for export.

The same which they displayed in IDEAS 2008. This placard was in orange.
Both Klimov and PAC displays the specs and you are claiming otherwise without proof. Are these members designing the engines or Klimov?

Here plz see the official manufacturer site, it says Developed in 2001.

Klimov :: Production :: Aircraft Program :: RD-33MK

And wouldn't it be obvious to keep Pakistan a client, Russia may provide a more powerful version of the engine to Pakistan, while may have done a deal to provide lower specification engine for export purposes. Plus, we are not buying the engines blindly, after rigorous testing and evaluation the engine was finalized and as per latest reports PAF is quiet happy with the performance of the engine. Plus the engine re-export was allowed by Russian and if Russians are smart people and want to do business, they won't be providing old, unreliable version of the engines, as it will cause them more harm in the end compared to stopping export of JF-17s, as one way or another substitute for the engine would come in few years time. And as per what i see, Russians are smart not as dumb as Indian members might think.

It may be developed in 2001, but it received IOC only in 2005. Just like the WS-13 engine which is developed in 2007 but got IOC only now where flight tests are being carried out on JF-17.

RD-33MK

Here is the document from Klimov which confirms the same-

"Klimov delivered first batch of the engines for flight tests in December 2005"

http://klimov.ru/f/download/press-kit/2100054687/2100054339/

After IOC, there is FOC, which was achieved maybe only now.


And you are right, they not dumb, they are smart, and that's why they are providing old engines to the chinese for re-export to pak. The last thing russians need is the chinese getting their hands on their latest RD-33MK. Not to mention creating competition for their Mig-29.

Here some of the members who are quoting it and you can ask them personally and see if it satisfies you.

PAF JF-17 in Farnborough Air Show 2010

JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

A non-PDF source: The SAAF Forum • View topic - Chengdu JF-17 vs Gripen

You can ask Mark Sien, pshamim, Black Blood and a non-Pakistan member who asked the pilots himself: http://www.defence.pk/forums/members/tempest-ii.html

Hope this is sufficient.

No need to ask, the guy himself says-
"The pilot also said the TWR is greater than 1.1. I did not ask "carry how many tonnes". With the Chinese testing their own version of the RD-93 said to have 10% more thrust and openly offering to help the Russians improve the RD-93, I suspect they are already upgrading the RD-93 before installing them."

The only way it gets 1.1 is when it is loaded with only 950 kgs of fuel.

Here plzz see the pictures from the PAC Kamra official site which clearly says the 9,100KG weight is with 2X wing tip missiles. You can click the above provided links of PAC and see what they are mentioning.

Ok. Thanks for the pic. With the official pic saying it is with the missiles, we have to believe it. This carries more credibility than sino-defence.

That chart you are referring to is from 2008 IDEAS held in Karachi where those specification were told and to me it seems more likely a typo error, instead of 14,220, 14,520 was typed as official and more reliable sources quote the 6,411Kg or 6,450KG empty weight. In my above post, links to official manufacturer website were posted which post the 6,411KG figure. Here, some more reliable and from official sources about the empty weight.

Typo error? Comeon!! How old are the pics you posted? It is natural for an aircraft weight to increase when more systems are added to it in the course of the development cycle. Every aircraft experiences that.

Ok now here see this official Russian news agency item which was used to open this thread, who are quoting Pogosyan and not Pakistani members. Check 3rd para and see what the news agency had to say:

" The deal is facing opposition from Russian aircraft manufacturers, such as Mikhail Pogosyan, the head of the MiG and Sukhoi aviation holding, who said that the FC-1 is extremely close, if not the same, as the Russian-made MiG-29. Pogosyan claimed that FC-1 is a direct competitor to Russia's MiG-29 and the deal would incur losses for the Russian manufacturers. "

Made-in-China airplanes may undermine sales of Russian high quality jets - RT

So now the myth busted or still gonna go on the .......................

The " " is being quoted from the news agency who clearly mentioned Pogosyan, who said that, so its not we Pakistani members to have put the " ", its the source which is quoting him to have said it.


I think sufficient has been said and with much proofs.

Where is the " " quote? This is precisely what I've been saying, and you give me the same news story.
Those RT morons are saying FC-1 is a copy of the Mig-29. Read the news again.

"Russian and Chinese weapons manufacturers are clashing head on within the international arms market as China’s new fighter jet seems to be a cheaper imitation of the Russian original."

RT is implying Pogoysan said FC-1 is an extremely close copy, if not the same as the Mig-29. Pogosyan never said such a thing. That's why I'm asking the quote from Pogosyan.

They thought everything china makes is a copy. What you have is a classic case of- China's piracy track record, coupled with stupid journalists, to get a story like this.

 

[dbc]

The German pilot didn't mention anything about low speed. If anything, it was normal engagement where speeds were not fixed prior to the exercises. If they did increase the speed of engagement later on as claimed by USAF pilots, what makes you think the German didn't do it accordingly? With a higher TWR and a top speed higher than F-16, The Fulcrum could accelerate and decelerate at will compared to an F-16. Coupled with Superior High alpha performance and more instantaneous turn rate, the bets are off. Its no wonder F-16s ate 18 archers.



That's what the USAF pilots say in code one magazine. The German pilot didn't mention anything about that as an "handicap"... given the fact that a humans eyes can turn many degrees even if the head is in another position.


So You let everyone believe F-16 was inferior. Yeah right!
If anything, those pilots are trying hard to brag in forums and code one magazine.
Bragging and USAF pilots go hand in hand, and I even have first hand experience of that talking to 2 pilots, on 2 different occasions.

ok the F-16 is inferior to the Mig-29

And since you know so much about the Mig-29, can you tell me why a clock is so prominently displayed in the Mig-29's cockpit? I'm rather perplexed by this, why does the Mig-29 pilot need a clock? It's not like he's baking cookies up in the sky or is he

 

[InPhilTraitor]

I know JF-17 is a JV, so I am curious why are the chinese who are equal partners still testing, while Pakistanis are inducting it in Air Force?

 

[mjnaushad]

I know JF-17 is a JV, so I am curious why are the chinese who are equal partners still testing, while Pakistanis are inducting it in Air Force?

JFTs are mainly for Pakistan. With china joined to export. China might not induct JFT as they have much better J 10. Also latest reports said that China tested JFT with chinese engine. So it could be the possibility that they want it with Chinese engine.

 

[WAQAS119]

ok the F-16 is inferior to the Mig-29

And since you know so much about the Mig-29, can you tell me why a clock is so prominently displayed in the Mig-29's cockpit? I'm rather perplexed by this, why does the Mig-29 pilot need a clock? It's not like he's baking cookies up in the sky or is he

Great shot DBC!!!!
Lets see the capabilities of Ping pong!

 

[satishkumarcsc]

ok the F-16 is inferior to the Mig-29

And since you know so much about the Mig-29, can you tell me why a clock is so prominently displayed in the Mig-29's cockpit? I'm rather perplexed by this, why does the Mig-29 pilot need a clock? It's not like he's baking cookies up in the sky or is he

Perhaps to know his ETA or to just know the time...perhaps his wife was baking them at home..and every cockpit has a clock...even the F 16 has one on the right console

 

[dbc]

Perhaps to know his ETA or to just know the time...perhaps his wife was baking them at home..and every cockpit has a clock...even the F 16 has one on the right console

Yes it does , please go back and read my question I asked why is it "prominently displayed" in the center console typically reserved for important gauges that the pilot must continuously monitor. In the F-16 the clock is placed in the "right auxiliary* console"

* functioning in a subsidiary capacity
Examples of AUXILIARY

a sailboat with an auxiliary engine
<the auditorium has an auxiliary cooling system used only on particularly sweltering days>

Are you a Mig-29 expert like Ping? I have so many questions for you guys.

 

[nForce]

Yes it does , please go back and read my question I asked why is it "prominently displayed" in the center console typically reserved for important gauges that the pilot must continuously monitor. In the F-16 the clock is placed in the "right auxiliary* console"



Are you a Mig-29 expert like Ping? I have so many questions for you guys.

Why?? Why??Please tell us..I cant hold back my anxiety any more....