JF-17 Block II, A Final Thunder & The FC-20 - Updates

[Silk]

Azad Pakistan , look like you don't know ABC of Stealth... Let me educate you once again...

1. External weapon contribute 3-4 Sq M RCS. Even If you can bring down RCS of JF17 to 0.1 Sq M, fully loaded FC1 will have RCS of 3-4 Sq M.
2. F15 silent eagle is huge plane (Size of Su30), It can carry only 4 missile under its internal weapon bay (If only Internal weapon bay is used), How much a small plane like FC1 or LCA can carry in its Internal bay?? one missile?? One missile can not Guarantee kill.
3. With every country going AESA, its difficult for LO Aircraft to remain stealth.
4. I have just talked bout Frontal RCS, I have not yet talked bout IR signature and other RCS.


The Moral of the story is:
1. Stealth/VLO FC1 is myth and useless.
2. Pakistan must start new project to develop a stealth fighter (from scratch)
3. Experiments on LO JF17 is good for Pakistan R&D sector, they must do it. But ppl like you must not boast on capability of it.
4,. R&D work never go waste, even if you fail, you will get enormous knowledge.
5. Pakistan have china, Pakistan must learn as much possible from china, no one know what will happen in future.

I have read many things but this beats most of it...

Reducing RCS is waste of time thanks to AESA. Well, the whole relationship with AESA or radar with RCS is wrong. If you can see 1 m2 on say 10 meters then you can see it on maybe 20 meters if it is 4 m2. So reducing the rcs helps buying range. Maybe you would also advice India to dump all MKI (that one has definatly huge rcs and lots of weapons)...

I do not think that frontal section increased with that much with more stores. Please provide source.

 

[Mani2020]

the only time jft blk1 would be shifted from the frontline squadrons is when we have better fighters than these just think yourself why would we shift jft when we might still be using f-7s for airsuperiority---- maybe j10b induction is closer than we think

If you read wat has been stated it says that after the induction of 150 block 2 jf-17's the original block 1 jf-17's we will be retired , now 150 block 2's plus ~63 f-16's as of now (and it has been stated various times that PAF always wanted to have atleast 100 f-16's also there were reports of PAF exercising the remaining option of 18 new f-16's also some used f-16's will be purchased , so this will make f-16 numbers to increase) than there is initial contract for 58 FC-20's which will later be increased as Pakistan is asking for TOT which clearly indicates the FC-20's will be produced in Pakistan as well and the number will go up to 150 examples . so i think these are enough to replace older f-7's and mirages ,also note that F-7PG's are relatively newer platforms and they might not be replaced as yet, these will be replaced somewhat around 2020 as they have a lot of life left in them , so now you can do some calculation n you will find what numbers are replacing what.

Although there are not that much solid proofs but its worthy of my 2 cents

 

[Mani2020]

Simple question... is Block -2 going to host more internal fuel to avoid the external tanks?.. is it going to have internal weapons??... .
.

Firstly there are no confirmations of how block-2 will look like, we will only able to notice it when the first such example will come out, till then it will be useless to say anything but from some credible sources who have inside knowledge

if true then it is fine to reduce the RCS.. if not... it is just waste because when you put your external stuff your RCS will shoot to nearly 5m2 depending on the load type ... it doesnt help any way... that is why there is no effort made to reduce RCS in MKI ... it really doesnt make sense for 4th generation fighters.

Secondly this claim of your's doesnot make sense because reduce RCS is still useful for the 4th generation aircrafts to reduce the radar detection, Its not a rule of thumb instead many 4th generation aircrafts like F-15 , EF-2000 and Rafale etc have weapons externally but still a lot of work has been done on them to reduce the RCS of these fighters , if you google out you will find the attempt to use composites on these fighters , If MKI has huge RCS it doensot mean that others will follw this, even when Chinese made the copy of Su-27 they attempted to reduce the RCS of j-11's significantly then the original su-27's

 

[Manticore]

on one hand you are saying the original blk1 will be retired as early as possible and on the other hand you are saying the f7pg still have a shelflife till 2020 -- i seriously doubt that f7pg can take on the likes of mrca and upgraded indian fighters of 2020etc


im not criticising you-- i was the one who posted this tidbit probably a couple of weeks back , however i'm tentaive in regards to defending these rumours to the full extent

 

[Mani2020]

on one hand you are saying the original blk1 will be retired as early as possible and on the other hand you are saying the f7pg still have a shelflife till 2020 -- i seriously doubt that f7pg can take on the likes of mrca and upgraded indian fighters of 2020etc


im not criticising you-- i was the one who posted this tidbit probably a couple of weeks back , however i'm tentaive in regards to defending these rumours to the full extent

Don't forget indians not only operate or are going to operate MRCA's solely rather there are numbers of mig-21's and Jaguars waiting to get retired , and mig-21's are not going anywhere before 2020 , mig-21's will operate alongside others in IAf till 2020 ,

Secondly if you can see both jf-17's block one and f-7pg's the scenario is different, jf-17 block 2 will be the standard version so the block one will be retired and retiring of them doesn't mean to completely ground them rather in this case they will be converted to OCU and training squadrons, training squadrons will be used to train pilots of other countries who will purchase jf-17's while in case of F-7pg's there is not such case, there retirement means completely grounding them off , also these block 1 jf-17's can also be sold to other countries

Also note that it will take time to induct 150 block 2 jf-17's , the full quota of block 2 will be completed around 2016-17 if roughly estimated

 

[Dazzler]

I have talked to someone who said there is no way on earth we are going to retire blk 1 before 2030 at least. I do not know how Eagle Hannan said this? Rejected by my sources as we have been using 40 year old mirages till today. As i understand his post, the first block will be retired from a specific squadron for e.g black spiders or panthers and disbursed to other squadrons and bases. JFT block 1 is here to stay for at least 30 years fellows, with all upgrades though!

 

[SBD-3]

on one hand you are saying the original blk1 will be retired as early as possible and on the other hand you are saying the f7pg still have a shelflife till 2020 -- i seriously doubt that f7pg can take on the likes of mrca and upgraded indian fighters of 2020etc


im not criticising you-- i was the one who posted this tidbit probably a couple of weeks back , however i'm tentaive in regards to defending these rumours to the full extent

Mani is correct, but IMHO he hasn't been able convey the message correctly. IMO, Block Is will remain in service till we have 3rd Gens like P/PGs and Mir III/Vs. However, Block I will only replace A-5s and serve as conversion and training in Peacetime while assuming the role of G/Att in Wartime like A-5s. The rest of the 3rd Gens will be replaced by Block II. When Block II replacing 3rd Gens would have been completed, then PAF will have choices to
1) Maintain block I for Basic Fighter Training, Replacing K-8s.
2) Sell/Gift them to another friendly AF in the region i.e. SLAF,BAF etc and get them replaced by more potent Block IIs.
Yet looking at their position, Afghanistan has recently contracted for F-16s. A replacement seems eminent. However, Using Block I as trainer still seems like a good option considering the outlook of Block I vs K-8

 

[Mani2020]

I have talked to someone who said there is no way on earth we are going to retire blk 1 before 2030 at least. I do not know how Eagle Hannan said this? Rejected by my sources as we have been using 40 year old mirages till today. As i understand his post, the first block will be retired from a specific squadron for e.g black spiders or panthers and disbursed to other squadrons and bases. JFT block 1 is here to stay for at least 30 years fellows, with all upgrades though!

Thats what i said nabil that these jf-17's will be retired and will be transferred to possibly OCU squadron n training squadron ,if you read my above post , also same was said by EagleHannan

 

[Manticore]

Mani is correct, but IMHO he hasn't been able convey the message correctly. IMO, Block Is will remain in service till we have 3rd Gens like P/PGs and Mir III/Vs. However, Block I will only replace A-5s and serve as conversion and training in Peacetime while assuming the role of G/Att in Wartime like A-5s. The rest of the 3rd Gens will be replaced by Block II. When Block II replacing 3rd Gens would have been completed, then PAF will have choices to
1) Maintain block I for Basic Fighter Training, Replacing K-8s.
2) Sell/Gift them to another friendly AF in the region i.e. SLAF,BAF etc and get them replaced by more potent Block IIs.
Yet looking at their position, Afghanistan has recently contracted for F-16s. A replacement seems eminent. However, Using Block I as trainer still seems like a good option considering the outlook of Block I vs K-8

yes , mani wasnt able to convey the msg as he was using the word ''retired''

 

[razgriz19]

Thats what i said nabil that these jf-17's will be retired and will be transferred to possibly OCU squadron n training squadron ,if you read my above post , also same was said by EagleHannan

"retired" isn't the right word. f-16s which are doing fighter coversion are not retired, they are operational as much as other aircraft. thunders will remain in active service, but will be used to train pilots for future blks. (i hope thats what u were trying to say)

 

[razgriz19]

Mani is correct, but IMHO he hasn't been able convey the message correctly. IMO, Block Is will remain in service till we have 3rd Gens like P/PGs and Mir III/Vs. However, Block I will only replace A-5s and serve as conversion and training in Peacetime while assuming the role of G/Att in Wartime like A-5s. The rest of the 3rd Gens will be replaced by Block II. When Block II replacing 3rd Gens would have been completed, then PAF will have choices to
1) Maintain block I for Basic Fighter Training, Replacing K-8s.
2) Sell/Gift them to another friendly AF in the region i.e. SLAF,BAF etc and get them replaced by more potent Block IIs.
Yet looking at their position, Afghanistan has recently contracted for F-16s. A replacement seems eminent. However, Using Block I as trainer still seems like a good option considering the outlook of Block I vs K-8

i think k-8 will serve PAF till end. PAF would never replace them with thunders, they could do it, but first they need to make a twin-seater thunder.
do you know any info or plans regarding twin seat version?

 

[SBD-3]

i think k-8 will serve PAF till end. PAF would never replace them with thunders, they could do it, but first they need to make a twin-seater thunder.
do you know any info or plans regarding twin seat version?

Even the current training is on JFT single seater version. If it is going smooth then there is a reason to believe that JFT is a pilot friendly machine. Remember, the more automated the machine, the easier it is to fly. Look at F-22, not a single double seater was built yet Pilots are flying it and that too quite remarkably. with the world of simulation expanding, You can train a pilot endlessly, on a simulator, enough for him to get accustomed with the Aircraft. Hex even Israeli AF was also thinking of it as a way to save costs yet accumulate fight hours for pilots at the same time.
On twin seat, as per Pshamim, PAF had decided to fund the program but there has been complete silence on that, yet since JFT is envisaged as a true MR, there is very high probability that one may see it in action soon. However, will it follow block I config or block II, this remain yet to be seen.

 

[krash]

yes , mani wasnt able to convey the msg as he was using the word ''retired''

Man I tried to clear that a few posts back.

 

[kingdurgaking]

Firstly there are no confirmations of how block-2 will look like, we will only able to notice it when the first such example will come out, till then it will be useless to say anything but from some credible sources who have inside knowledge

Secondly this claim of your's doesnot make sense because reduce RCS is still useful for the 4th generation aircrafts to reduce the radar detection, Its not a rule of thumb instead many 4th generation aircrafts like F-15 , EF-2000 and Rafale etc have weapons externally but still a lot of work has been done on them to reduce the RCS of these fighters , if you google out you will find the attempt to use composites on these fighters , If MKI has huge RCS it doensot mean that others will follw this, even when Chinese made the copy of Su-27 they attempted to reduce the RCS of j-11's significantly then the original su-27's

This is not entirely true... RCS of all the aircraft you have mentiones is in clean configuration... not with loadsouts... the RCS reduction factor is put on place just for doing recon roles... and the Radars are getting advanced so far.. it can detect 1m2 from 150-200 KM especially with aerostats coming on board.. You can ask any pilots around in this forum or in your own country... they will educate you... RCS is a great deal when you are having a VLO or LO platform...

Secondly in 4th generations the avioncis play a major role like MAWS, jammers, decoy etc.. no where any one stress on reduced RCS...

 

[Mani2020]

This is not entirely true... RCS of all the aircraft you have mentiones is in clean configuration... not with loadsouts... the RCS reduction factor is put on place just for doing recon roles... and the Radars are getting advanced so far.. it can detect 1m2 from 150-200 KM especially with aerostats coming on board.. You can ask any pilots around in this forum or in your own country... they will educate you... RCS is a great deal when you are having a VLO or LO platform...

Secondly in 4th generations the avioncis play a major role like MAWS, jammers, decoy etc.. no where any one stress on reduced RCS...

lol oh mere bhai if an aircraft has a clean configuration of say 4m2 RCS while the other aircraft has a clean configuration of 1m2 due to the use of composites both uses same weapons with say total RCS of 3m-2 (supposition) so what will be the the total RCS of both aircrafts while fully loaded? the first one will have 7m2 while the later one 4m2 , so doesn't it make any difference?

Just as your MKI's dont use composites and have big RCS so you are trying to prove the composites concept wrong, Do you think Americans or french or Europeans have been fool enough to spend millions to reduce the RCS of their aircrafts using composites? You can't turn a 4th generation aircraft into a 5th because you need internal weapon bays and for that whole new structure and design but you can turn a 4th generation aircraft as much close to 5th gen as you can ,

Instead of asking me you go and ask some military professional and he will tell you wat are you upto , my friend bharat rakhshak is not the end of the world where many fanboys get together to have party by trying to please and illude eachother with fictions, get out from this mindset and grow up , i wonder are you mature enough to join this forum

I think mods have to come up with disclaimer stuff like " Proceed only if you are 18 or above "