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Japans warns West against lifting China arms embargo

I think I actually support, to a certain degree, Western arms sanction against China. This has taught the Chinese self-reliance so the nation was able to make considerable strides in aerospace tech.

No matter less or more, the lifting of embargo will help China get something than loose. I support this move and would suggest China to evaluate/analyze/adopt western tech as well.. West is still laps ahead of Asia and to cover the gap in lesser period of time, such moves will help.

Regarding China's indigenous ability to manufacture armament of its requirements is a reality and such procurement would bolster its industry instead of damaging it.
 
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There is nothing china needs from West

NOTHING !!!

China has best Missiles
China has best fighter planes now J10B and J11 etc and many more
Chinas will be launching commercial airline products soon
China is building Railways and infrastructure
China is building refineries in Iran and world

China is world Leader - Obama can go give fancy speeches etc but his country is in debt 10-20 trillion dollars and they can't pay back for next 30-40 years unless they start WW3
 
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The thing is many of the Japanese elite responsible for WWII are never punished, and today alot of the politicians are just descendants of the said elites. In their minds Japan lost but they don't feel they were wrong partly because alot of their their ancestors were never held responsible.
 
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It's not like lifting the embargo will change anything.

Our industry doesn't need EU technology; in some aspects we are far ahead.

In fact, we even export weapons to some EU countries.
 
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I think I actually support, to a certain degree, Western arms sanction against China. This has taught the Chinese self-reliance so the nation was able to make considerable strides in aerospace tech.

In fact, I don't think lifting the EU arms embargo will have any effect. China has already reached the world's top advanced level for years now.

Example: did Western technology help develop the DF-21D ASBM? No
 
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Why would China want any 'Western Weapon' in the first place ---- Arent they supposed to be self sufficient in that ?? :azn:

That's why the US chose this time to start lifting the embargo. They didn't lift it back in the 80's because at that time China needed Western technology.

They know that lifting it now would not change China.

 
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No matter less or more, the lifting of embargo will help China get something than loose. I support this move and would suggest China to evaluate/analyze/adopt western tech as well.. West is still laps ahead of Asia and to cover the gap in lesser period of time, such moves will help.

Regarding China's indigenous ability to manufacture armament of its requirements is a reality and such procurement would bolster its industry instead of damaging it.

I would agree that it is a very negative and incorrect assessment that if avenues to bootstrap become available, internal efforts will stagnant.
 
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The thing is many of the Japanese elite responsible for WWII are never punished, and today alot of the politicians are just descendants of the said elites. In their minds Japan lost but they don't feel they were wrong partly because alot of their their ancestors were never held responsible.

And the bureaucratic elite.
However, they do exhibit and loser/subservient mentality to the US.
 
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I believe that the Japanese did not "get off easy' after the WW2 as some claim they did. Didn't they lose hundreds of thousands due to the nukes alone? Furthermore iirc correctly, the firebombing of Tokyo alone(not taking other cities into account) during ww2 by Allied forced caused more death and destruction than the one caused by the nukes.
I mean..even though the Japanese carried out heinous crimes during their reign; don't you folks think that the unprecedented retaliation (the first and only use of nukes against a population)they faced counts as punishment?.

(btw, just for the record; I believe the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki to be war-crimes, as all they did was the punish a people collectively instead of targeting the criminals. I would have preferred that the Allies actually did a better job of punishing the actual criminals than literally "drop the bomb" on a city )


Also, I do agree that some of the Japanese Elite escaped prosecution.This is definitely deplorable; however by no means is this unique during ww2. The Germans (Who have been quite copious in their apologies post ww2) saw many a horrid war criminal escape after the war. Many slipped away via the Odessa route; while some went on to work in the Allied nations. Where do you think the creme-de-la creme of the scientists and engineers who propelled Western and (sometimes even soviet) technology and development came from? Germany. Entire German factories/R&D centers and staff were dismantled by the Allies and the Soviets and transplanted in their own respective countries. Many war criminals, with the blood of millions on their hand were welcome, and given a new life by the victors. The man who built America's Rocket to the Moon worked for Hitler during ww2!

What exactly should the Japanese; who are imho 2 or 3 generations removed from those who perpetrated the crimes during ww2 do? Is this some version of the "Original Sin" concept found in the Abrahamic religions? that the children should be punished for the sins of their fathers? It makes no sense. If that is the case, the Jews would still be hating Germany, and the Polish; both the Germans and Soviets and so on.

btw, I replied to this thread just cos I believe the common Japanese people have atoned for their sins as much as they could...or in other words; as much as the other Axis nations during the ww2 have. Could the Allies have done a better job securing some war criminals who escaped? definitely. However to demand a pound of flesh 3 generations removed might not really do much.

Also, what China could do (like the Jewish people have done) is to collect evidence of war crimes of living war criminals, and have them face justice.
 
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I believe that the Japanese did not "get off easy' after the WW2 as some claim they did. Didn't they lose hundreds of thousands due to the nukes alone? Furthermore iirc correctly, the firebombing of Tokyo alone(not taking other cities into account) during ww2 by Allied forced caused more death and destruction than the one caused by the nukes.
I mean..even though the Japanese carried out heinous crimes during their reign; don't you folks think that the unprecedented retaliation (the first and only use of nukes against a population)they faced counts as punishment?

(btw, just for the record; I believe the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki to be war-crimes, as all they did was the punish a people collectively instead of targeting the criminals. I would have preferred that the Allies actually did a better job of punishing the actual criminals than literally "drop the bomb" on a city )


Also, I do agree that some of the Japanese Elite escaped prosecution.This is definitely deplorable; however by no means is this unique during ww2. The Germans (Who have been quite copious in their apologies post ww2) saw many a horrid war criminal escape after the war. Many slipped away via the Odessa route; while some went on to work in the Allied nations. Where do you think the creme-de-la creme of the scientists and engineers who propelled Western and (sometimes even soviet) technology and development came from? Germany. Entire German factories/R&D centers and staff were dismantled by the Allies and the Soviets and transplanted in their own respective countries. Many war criminals, with the blood of millions on their hand were welcome, and given a new life by the victors. The man who built America's Rocket to the Moon worked for Hitler during ww2!

What exactly should the Japanese; who are imho 2 or 3 generations removed from those who perpetrated the crimes during ww2 do? Is this some version of the "Original Sin" concept found in the Abrahamic religions? that the children should be punished for the sins of their fathers? It makes no sense. If that is the case, the Jews would still be hating Germany, and the Polish; both the Germans and Soviets and so on.

There are many fallacies to your argument. Some German criminals got away, yes, as some criminals always get away, but the vast majority were punished. Building weapons, for whomever, is not a crime, but using them the way the Nazis and the Japanese did is.

What exactly should the Japanese do? Fully recognize and apolgoize for their crimes. I don't expect them to pay reparations or try the war criminals who are still alive, but I do expect them to at least recognize what they've done and do so at the extent that Germany has done.

And for the record, the amount the Japanese suffered isn't nearly as brutal as years of occupation, but that's not really the point. Making them suffer just as much as the Chinese, Vietnamese, Koreans, Philipinos, etc. did will only perpetuate the cycle of violence. To continue your biblical theme, all the Japanese have to do is to confess their sins.

Even God doesn't forgive those who don't confess and repent, why should we?
 
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There are many fallacies to your argument. Some German criminals got away, yes, as some criminals always get away, but the vast majority were punished. Building weapons, for whomever, is not a crime, but using them the way the Nazis and the Japanese did is.

Even disregarding the example of Wernher Von Braun and the assorted scientists we will still end up with literally thousands of Top Nazis who escaped prosecution after ww2. Many did go to work for the Allies.

In the words of Eli Rosenbaum of the justice Department (well known Nazi hunter and spokesperson for the Holocaust survivors )

"the real winners of the Cold War were Nazi criminals, many of whom were able to escape justice because East and West became so rapidly focused after the (Second World) War on challenging each other that they lost their will to pursue Nazi perpetrators
And they even deemed some of the criminals to be useful allies in conducting Cold War intelligence operations"


to cut a long story short; some of the Most wanted Nazis (along with thousands of others) escaped, and some worked for the ww2 Victors.

These infamous Characters include

Josef Mengele "The Angel of Death" who carried out the horrid human experiments during ww2.

Klaus "Butcher of Lyon" Barbie, of the Gestapho
(he worked for the CIA after ww2 )

Adolf Eichmann "The architect of the Holocaust"

the list goes on.

Even to this day, some of the files pertaining to the cooperation between Nazi war criminals and the Allies intelligence/governments after ww2 are still classified.

What exactly should the Japanese do? Fully recognize and apolgoize for their crimes. I don't expect them to pay reparations or try the war criminals who are still alive, but I do expect them to at least recognize what they've done and do so at the extent that Germany has done.

I agree with this. I'm quite surprised that they didnt already. I was under the impression that the Axis nations apologized after the ww2. This is the least they could do.

And for the record, the amount the Japanese suffered isn't nearly as brutal as years of occupation but that's not really the point. Making them suffer just as much as the Chinese, Vietnamese, Koreans, Philipinos, etc. did will only perpetuate the cycle of violence. To continue your biblical theme, all the Japanese have to do is to confess their sins.


Of course; I never meant they were equal or downplay the suffering the other nations endured under the axis. I agree with your statement. Japan should at least make a full apology.

My post was actually a reply to some in this thread who claimed that post ww2 Germany was actually better than post ww2 Japan. Many of the Germans who supported the allies during ww2, and especially those brave men who tried to assassinate Hitler; were treated as outcasts by the German population well into the late 60s. I remember listening to the story of a doctor (who was the son of one of the Germans who tried to assassinate Hitler) explain the discrimination he and people like him faced in post ww2 Germany. For all the "apologies" the government was making; there was a strong undercurrent; even amongst his fellow students and teachers in his school that was pro Nazi. He and his ilk were called "traitors" by most of the Germans.


Even God doesn't forgive those who don't confess and repent, why should we?

Well said.

on an unrelated note, as an Advaitin Hindu and as someone who believes in democracy; I find the concept of god (which implies inequality) a figment of the human imagination.
 
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Yes, I am well aware of the fact that many Nazis got away with their crimes, but the number of Japanese war criminals who got away with their crimes is not even close in magnitude. By 1958, ALL Japanese war criminals, including Class-A ones, were completely exonerated. That's about half of all convicted class A(class A!!!) war criminals convicted in the Tokyo trials.

So some German scientists who conducted human experiments got away with it? ALL Japanese scientists who conducted human experiments caught by the Americans got away with it. At least the Soviets executed some of them.

As Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers, MacArthur also gave immunity to Shiro Ishii and all members of the bacteriological research units in exchange for germ warfare data based on human experimentation. On May 6, 1947, he wrote to Washington that "additional data, possibly some statements from Ishii probably can be obtained by informing Japanese involved that information will be retained in intelligence channels and will not be employed as "War Crimes" evidence."[12] The deal was concluded in 1948.[13]
 
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Yes, I am well aware of the fact that many Nazis got away with their crimes, but the number of Japanese war criminals who got away with their crimes is not even close in magnitude. By 1958, ALL Japanese war criminals, including Class-A ones, were completely exonerated. That's about half of all convicted class A(class A!!!) war criminals convicted in the Tokyo trials.

I was definitely not aware that all the Convicted Japanese war criminals were exonerated.This is quite unprecedented and should definitely be condemned; to say the least. Thanks for shedding some light into this fact. Ill endeavor to learn more about it.


So some German scientists who conducted human experiments got away with it? ALL Japanese scientists who conducted human experiments caught by the Americans got away with it. At least the Soviets executed some of them.

Even though I agree that fact that the acquittal of all the Japanese war criminals is clearly unprecedented and not equal to the escape of the Nazis; One also have to keep in mind that Eichmann and Mendele were directly responsible for the deaths of nearly 13 Million people.


As Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers, MacArthur also gave immunity to Shiro Ishii and all members of the bacteriological research units in exchange for germ warfare data based on human experimentation. On May 6, 1947, he wrote to Washington that "additional data, possibly some statements from Ishii probably can be obtained by informing Japanese involved that information will be retained in intelligence channels and will not be employed as "War Crimes" evidence."[12] The deal was concluded in 1948.[13]

I am well aware of this particular incident. It also plays a central theme in the novel "The Emperor's general" about MacArthur's role in post ww2 Japan.

I find the post ww2 German stance quite hypocritical; as evidenced from the testimonies and histories of those who lived then, it was the Government which was making all the apologies; while a lot of people actively resented the fall of the Nazis. Thus even though I unequivocally agree that Japan should apologize; I disagreed with (some of the posts in this thread) that Germany was lily white due to its profuse apologies. The point I was trying to make to those claimants was that One may smile, and smile, and (yet) be a villain.

Ps: Just to be clear, the intent of my post was to point out the hypocritical nature of the official German apology post ww2 and definitely not to lessen or even question the atrocities committed by Japan during ww2.
 
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Ps: Just to be clear, the intent of my post was to point out the hypocritical nature of the official German apology post ww2 and definitely not to lessen or even question the atrocities committed by Japan during ww2.

Thanks for keeping an open mind about it. :tup:

The Western media keep going on about Nazi war crimes, yet they rarely mention the Japanese war crimes... even though more than 20 million innocent Chinese civilians died to the Imperial Japanese Army.
 
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What are present CCP official lines on the like such as the cultural revolution? Lots of people also unnecessarily suffered. This is not excusing japanese actions but it does weaken the case if chinese government do not want to face up to something that happen in history that was their doing (Not saying they are)
 
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