Jamaat-ud-Dawa to approach ICJ over sanctions: Hafiz Saeed

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

IIRC, politicians in Pakistani jails have had a lot of facilities.

Zardari, during Nawaz's term, was allowed to keep his cell phone, had a TV and VCR, air conditioning etc.

But I am going off memory, and I was pretty young when I read about it, so I can't be sure ..

Not sure what the situation is like now. Whether we have first class, business class and economy class in our prisons - should be renamed 'Politician Class', 'wealthy criminal class' and 'innocent person who can't afford bribing the warden class'.

 

[Vinod2070]

Ok, you have got to get a little more serious Vinod, you want him tried for saying that the Islamic flag will fly over the red fort?

I am not familiar with him claiming the Red Fort attack, but lets assume he did. Does Pakistan have a law that can be used to punish him for a crime not committed in Pakistan? Who initiates proceedings against him? And a mere claim made publicly is not going to hold up in court.

What if he shows up in front of the judge and says that he was merely being belligerent and trying to rile the Indians, and that he was never associated with such acts?

So now you are back to square one where you have to establish clear linkages between this specific individual and the act committed. Even if the LeT could be linked to that attack, you would still have to show that this particular member of the LeT participated in the planning, execution of funding of the attack.

Seriously, the Indians are just blazing away with nonsensical demands of 'jail him! He said this or that'. Getting the evidence to link leaders like Hafeez and convicting them is probably the hardest part of going after such organizations. All the dirty work is done by committed people like Lakhvi etc, with these guys hidden behind the scenes.

I am totally serious.

He along with his organization should be tried for his actions and the actions of his organization and not mere words.

You really feel there is no "proof" against them! Just read about their rallies in the Ghaddafi stadium of Lahore where a severed head was shown to delirious crowds claiming to belong to an Indian army captain (I have read that news report in a Pakistani paper).

Want more? Remember the collection boxes that were there in all markets of Pakistan openly collecting money for the Jihad against India. It was not too far back.

Everything that they did was done openly. Pakistan never felt the need to hide it before 9/11. Everyone "knows" what they have been up to all this while.

Heck, your own government banned LET. Though it was superficial and nothing really changed. Most people feel that this time is going to be no different. It won't be because there is anything that needs to be proven, it will be because Pakistan has not made up it's mind that they are Pakistan's enemies too and they can and will really cost more than they are worth.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I am totally serious.

He along with his organization should be tried for his actions and the actions of his organization and not mere words.

You really feel there is no "proof" against them! Just read about their rallies in the Ghaddafi stadium of Lahore where a severed head was shown to delirious crowds claiming to belong to an Indian army captain (I have read that news report in a Pakistani paper).

Want more? Remember the collection boxes that were there in all markets of Pakistan openly collecting money for the Jihad against India. It was not too far back.

Everything that they did was done openly. Pakistan never felt the need to hide it before 9/11. Everyone "knows" what they have been up to all this while.

Heck, your own government banned LET. Though it was superficial and nothing really changed. Most people feel that this time is going to be no different. It won't be because there is anything that needs to be proven, it will be because Pakistan has not made up it's mind that they are Pakistan's enemies too and they can and will really cost more than they are worth.

Vinod, you really can't be serious about trying someone for saying they want to raise the Islamic flag on the red fort - that is just absurd.

On the other alleged events you mentioned, I never heard of them, though I am not denying that they might be true. However you still come up with the same problem - what law did they break in Pakistan? Was the head real? Was it dug out of a grave? Who did what to get that head? Is it a crime to display a supposed head at a rally?

I mean really, you can talk about a lost of things tha are distasteful, but if we are to follow due process, than you can't just go with 'it offends me' - you have to show a crime under Pakistan's penal code was committed, and you need to have the evidence to prove that this particular individual was in some way shape or form involved in the planning or execution of that crime.

Banning the JuD or the LeT alone will do nothing, nor will the curbs placed on the leadership. They will still manage to use their personality to recruit, to raise funds under the radar, under the guise of some other organization, one that they will probably not be part of.

I mean, the UN has declared these organizations banned and the four leaders as 'terrorists' but now what?

Is India finally going to cooperate and bring cases against these individuals, on the behalf of the families of those killed, so that they can actually be punished?

 

[Awesome]

I don't understand what are we talking of! Isn't JUD just another alias for LET? Does anyone really doubt that?

Does this Hafeez guy not openly talk of the Islamic flag on the Red fort? Does he not openly claim credit for the Red Fort attack in Delhi?

What is this process we are talking of!

Ok fine try him for it? Even if he says "I DID TOTALLY DID IT" A court has to pronounce him guilty". I believe Indians are hitting themselves on the foot by not pushing for a trial. At most he would land under custody for a while. Until and unless he is SENTENCED to jail its not the same thing.

Who do you think would SENTENCE him to jail? Sentence him to hard time? A court or Zardari?

 

[AAHAN]

Don't go too far vinod.
Why r u people always in a hustle to ditch Pakistan.Perhaps u know Bal Thakray.What are Shev Sena,Bajrang Dal,RSS etc.
They are your religious extremists.Aren't they?
Who dug the cricket pitches to stop PAK-INDIA matches?It wasn't JuD,not even LeT.
Who set one of the worst examples of religious extremism by attacking BABRI MOSQUE?
What happened to Golden Temple?
Who burnt Christian missionaries?
Who committed the Gujrat massacre?
Do an introspection and u will see ur own face appearing in the mirror at every glance.
Don't hide the inhospitable,intolerant face of yours.
Your Neighbours are ur enemies
Your neighbours' neighbours are ur friends
Always blame others for ur failures
Perhaps u know CHANKIA and CHANDER GUPT MORIYA.I think u also know ARTH SHASTAR.
It was from this Shastar,written by Chankia,for Chandar Gupt Moriya,that i have mentioned above.
The strategy seems to be working well for you people.
You are real Fundamentalists. I mean many muslims even find offering prayer a hard job.But u r sticking to ur fundamentals.

 

[third eye]

You didn't answer my question. If the innocence of the Jamaat is PROVEN in court, will you accept it?

I had written.. why would India back off ?

India does not need a court to prove / disprove innocence of terrorist outfits in / from Pak.

This time its out in the open for the whole world to see & realise where & how the assembly lines are.

 

[Captain03]

i think jamaat-ud-dawa should be taken to icj
if it was a terrorist organization it would pick up arms instead of protesting
this proves their innocence

 

[third eye]

i think jamaat-ud-dawa should be taken to icj
if it was a terrorist organization it would pick up arms instead of protesting
this proves their innocence

What ??

Going by this anology, a murderer appealing against a verdict of life imprisionment, should also be innocent.

 

[Awesome]

JuD is also going to raise the case in Pak courts.

Pakistani religious leader says to challenge UN ban in court_English_Xinhua

 

[Vinod2070]

Vinod, you really can't be serious about trying someone for saying they want to raise the Islamic flag on the red fort - that is just absurd.

On the other alleged events you mentioned, I never heard of them, though I am not denying that they might be true. However you still come up with the same problem - what law did they break in Pakistan? Was the head real? Was it dug out of a grave? Who did what to get that head? Is it a crime to display a supposed head at a rally?

I mean really, you can talk about a lost of things tha are distasteful, but if we are to follow due process, than you can't just go with 'it offends me' - you have to show a crime under Pakistan's penal code was committed, and you need to have the evidence to prove that this particular individual was in some way shape or form involved in the planning or execution of that crime.

Banning the JuD or the LeT alone will do nothing, nor will the curbs placed on the leadership. They will still manage to use their personality to recruit, to raise funds under the radar, under the guise of some other organization, one that they will probably not be part of.

I mean, the UN has declared these organizations banned and the four leaders as 'terrorists' but now what?

Is India finally going to cooperate and bring cases against these individuals, on the behalf of the families of those killed, so that they can actually be punished?

Ok fine try him for it? Even if he says "I DID TOTALLY DID IT" A court has to pronounce him guilty". I believe Indians are hitting themselves on the foot by not pushing for a trial. At most he would land under custody for a while. Until and unless he is SENTENCED to jail its not the same thing.

Who do you think would SENTENCE him to jail? Sentence him to hard time? A court or Zardari?

Guys, I am not sure we are on the same page!

Are you really serious that these guys need to be dealt with in the same way you would deal with a pickpocket or a common criminal!

They are terrorists and the normal criminal code has no relevance for them. No country has successfully fought a war with the terrorists with the "normal" criminal code and procedure.

So the issue is: Does Pakistan believe that they are terrorists or not? Does the world believe that they are terrorists or not? If they are, the normal process of law becomes meaningless and they have to be dealt with in a separate manner.

I think Asim hit the nail on the head when he said that Pakistan has different priorities. So LET may be a problem for India and the USA but a lower priority for Pakistan.

So the task for India and the USA is to increase the priority for you. To make Pakistan aware that the cost of not doing anything is not negligible. It better be done through diplomatic means like the UN resolutions to make it easier for Pakistan.

The talk of any judicial process is red-herring. What judicial process is followed against enemies of the country, against the Fata rebels, against the separatists?

 

[Flintlock]

^The LeT was till recently a wing of Pakistan's foreign policy. You need to realize this in order to fully appreciate the situation that the Pakistani leadership are facing right now.

Personally, I would hate to fill Zardari's shoes at this given moment.

 

[Awesome]

Guys, I am not sure we are on the same page!

Are you really serious that these guys need to be dealt with in the same way you would deal with a pickpocket or a common criminal!

They are terrorists and the normal criminal code has no relevance for them. No country has successfully fought a war with the terrorists with the "normal" criminal code and procedure.

So the issue is: Does Pakistan believe that they are terrorists or not? Does the world believe that they are terrorists or not? If they are, the normal process of law becomes meaningless and they have to be dealt with in a separate manner.

I think Asim hit the nail on the head when he said that Pakistan has different priorities. So LET may be a problem for India and the USA but a lower priority for Pakistan.

So the task for India and the USA is to increase the priority for you. To make Pakistan aware that the cost of not doing anything is not negligible. It better be done through diplomatic means like the UN resolutions to make it easier for Pakistan.

The talk of any judicial process is red-herring. What judicial process is followed against enemies of the country, against the Fata rebels, against the separatists?

FATA terrorists, the ones that are caught are all in pak jails. You don't reach a Pak jail without going through courts.

Most have been killed.

Everyone must be tried. This is a neo-western philosophy that you may jail anyone without trial and the west is worst for it. We must not adopt a bad idea.

 

[devgupt]

a person residing in place x commits a crime in place y - where should he be tried - in x or at y?

If your analogy is to be followed then what is the use of extradition treaties in the world? I know our nations dont have an extradition treaty but guys this is an extraordinary situation.
morever it isnt that India havent shared info with Pakistan in past.
the bombay blasts etc etc but in all case we have only met with a flat pakistani denial


And you seem to believing that all these guys are no way linked directly or through shadowy means to intelligence or security establishment in Pakistan

Masood Azhar was freed in exchange for approx 160 Indian civilians during Kandahar hostage crisis. after that he resurfaced in Pakistan and is operating freely.before the incident he was on Interpol watch list and continues to do o.
can anyone give me an example of a person of such a shadowy character is allowed to roam freely in any country?

 

[Awesome]

a person residing in place x commits a crime in place y - where should he be tried - in x or at y?

If your analogy is to be followed then what is the use of extradition treaties in the world? I know our nations dont have an extradition treaty but guys this is an extraordinary situation.
morever it isnt that India havent shared info with Pakistan in past.
the bombay blasts etc etc but in all case we have only met with a flat pakistani denial


And you seem to believing that all these guys are no way linked directly or through shadowy means to intelligence or security establishment in Pakistan

Masood Azhar was freed in exchange for approx 160 Indian civilians during Kandahar hostage crisis. after that he resurfaced in Pakistan and is operating freely.before the incident he was on Interpol watch list and continues to do o.
can anyone give me an example of a person of such a shadowy character is allowed to roam freely in any country?

I'm not believing they are linked to LeT or the mumbai attack, nor disbelieving it. I'm saying it is detrimental to Pakistani society to make any permanent move without following proper judicial procedures.

 

[devgupt]

How 9/11 is Connected to December 13 - Brookings Institution

continuing with masood azhar- during the parliament attack on India there was a flat denial from Pakistan.but as this article suggests later u admit to your own mistakes. in this article you will find that your ex general and railway minister acknowledges the role of JeM in paliament attack. That is quite a senior and responsible position.
why then masood azhar should not be extradited to India?