J-20 vs F-22

[johnqh]

Exactly...Then the point is not to get into any situation where one's advantages do 'not matter'. In a fight, the goal is make your opponent fight under your rules, not you under his, and cheating is allowed.

We agree on this.

Then, F-22 simply shouldn't get close to that F-18 (or any 3G fighter) in a real fight. Just stay 50km away and fire the AIM-120's.

The only problem is, if J-20 and F-22 meets, it is quite possible that both fighters have enough stealth to disallow the radar-homing missiles from a lock. So both of them need to get close to hope for a kill, and the old-fashioned dog fight starts....

 

[amalakas]

Exactly...Then the point is not to get into any situation where one's advantages do 'not matter'. In a fight, the goal is make your opponent fight under your rules, not you under his, and cheating is allowed.

I remember an F15 pilot commenting on joint exercises with the german MiG 29s .. someone asked if they are more agile than the F15 and he said something along the lines of " I don't want to get so close to the bear than i can see it, i wanna shoot it from afar and make sure I am safe" ...

it's a doctrine thing...

 

[amalakas]

Gambit, are you online now ?

I have a question ..

has a SAR ever taken a lookdown on a lot with parked F22s? I wonder what the return would be from that..
has it ever happened do you know ?

 

[gambit]

Gambit, are you online now ?

I have a question ..

has a SAR ever taken a lookdown on a lot with parked F22s? I wonder what the return would be from that..
has it ever happened do you know ?

You mean synthetic aperature? As far as I know on the civilian side, SAR systems have been used to managed ground aircraft traffic or approaching airborne aircrafts. For a row of parked F-22s, I doubt that Nellis would allow a SAR to take a gander. Who knows...May be the USAF had...

 

[amalakas]

On chats with Nato crews we were told the radar in SAR mode got returns from soldiers getting off C130s and personnel on the ground .. you get were i'm going with this.. i'd die to find out if a row of F22s gives off a return ....

 

[gambit]

On chats with Nato crews we were told the radar in SAR mode got returns from soldiers getting off C130s and personnel on the ground .. you get were i'm going with this.. i'd die to find out if a row of F22s gives off a return ....

Absolutely the SAR will get returns. The question is how detailed and that the USAF will not be accommodating.

 

[amalakas]

Absolutely the SAR will get returns. The question is how detailed and that the USAF will not be accommodating.

I guess you're right..

 

[localoca]

if J-20 and F-22 meets, it is quite possible that both fighters have enough stealth to disallow the radar-homing missiles from a lock. So both of them need to get close to hope for a kill, and the old-fashioned dog fight starts....

this is What this thread its about....

 

[SpArK]

 

[no_name]

F-22 is a formidable plane, no denying that. I feel J-20 still needs alot of work.

 

[CardSharp]

F-22 is a formidable plane, no denying that. I feel J-20 still needs alot of work.

Well hell, you don't even know that since for sure, because we still don't know much about the J-20 beyond speculation.

But my guess is the same as yours, the J-20 might be a good starting point to build on but China isn't likely to produce a fully matured 5th gen first time off.

 

[localoca]

F-22 is a formidable plane, no denying that. I feel J-20 still needs alot of work.

That's why I said Fully operational, 3D TVC, Golden canopy, SW15, advanced LIP AESA Radar... as of tody its just a baby...taking baby steps like the Y-F22 was 20 years ago...but a Deadly baby that its...

 

[Akasa]

Again, these dreaded VS threads

 

[below_freezing]

This thread is funny! But I will take the bait.

US air force is a big fan of the energy maneuverability theory. It requires the fighters to maintain high energy during the dog fight. It has settled down to about 42 degree wings and very powerful engine for sustained turn rate. I doubt J-20 can out-turn F-22 on sustained turn.

However, there are different tactics in dog fight. Even with 3G fighters, Mirage-2000 is a prime example. It has amazing ability to reduce speed to achieve the instant turn rate. This is also reflected on USN's F/A-18. Between the exercises between F-16 and F/A-18, (based on an article I read, on Air Force magazine, by a navy pilot), it is very rare that F-16 can get a first shot against F/A-18. The writer himself never lost a fight against F-16. Usually, F-16's tactic is to accelerate way past, hoping to get out of the range of the short-range missile, then turn.

By the way, wasn't F/A-18 the only 3G fighter which had a kill against F-22 in the exercises?

J-20's delta wing (like Typhoon, Rafael, Mirage-2000) has a very high drag when turning, thus can reduce the speed and turn quickly.

So, if we compare the ability to dog fight, I would say J-20 will get the first shot. F-22 possible would use the same tactic as F-16 vs F/A-18, blaze past then turn after 10 miles or so. If it can evade the first missile, it has the advantage over J-20 on energy and J-20 would have little chance.

By the way, that scenario is one-against-one. If it is a group fight, it would be suicidal to reduce speed to turn. In that case, the J-20's chance is much lower unless it gets super powerful engine (WS-15?). But what's the chance that 4G fighters have a group dog fight?

This problem is solved by canards and inherent instability in design. In addition, the delta wings are superior for high speed flight, making it better to not attack the F-22 which is a comparatively waste of resources, but to attack slow weak targets like tankers, AWAC, bombers and 3rd gen planes. J-20 doesn't even have to be that stealthy, just stealthy enough that radar detection =< optical detection.

 

[dbc]

This problem is solved by canards and inherent instability in design. In addition, the delta wings are superior for high speed flight, making it better to not attack the F-22 which is a comparatively waste of resources, but to attack slow weak targets like tankers, AWAC, bombers and 3rd gen planes. J-20 doesn't even have to be that stealthy, just stealthy enough that radar detection =< optical detection.

What problem does the canard solve?