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J-10 Vs F-16 Technical Comparison

Lankan Ranger

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J-10 vs F-16 Technical Comparison

The F-16 was designed from the outset as a dog-fighter. The moderate sweep of the wings and aspect ratios were ideal for this. The trade-off however, was greater supersonic resistance. The thrust offered by the two engine options on the F-16 is impressive even to this day.

TWR in air combat is about 1.15, ensuring impressive climbing rates and sustained turn rates. As noted, the F-16 sacrificed supersonic performance, not only in its wing design but also in its fixed air intakes. In supersonic flight, engine thrust is lost. While it can reach Mach 2.0, pragmatically it has poor supersonic performance.

While the F-16 sacrificed supersonic performance for subsonic dogfighting, the J-10 did not make the same sacrifice. Thus, while when the F-16 was designed, turning dogfights were what was projected as the bread and butter of air combat, when the J-10 was being designed, the BVR era had arrived (or re-arrived).

The J-10s aerodynamic design, including wing design and inlet design, take this into account. For instance, the J-10 visibly has greater wing sweep and a variable inlet. With the J-10B, a DSI intake. While the J-10B sacrifices maximum theoretical top speeds with its DSI intakes, for all relevant combat speeds, it gives the J-10 superior performance.

Under modern BVR conditions and higher altitude combat, the J-10 is significantly superior to the F-16. This is also reflected in its higher instantaneous turn rates. The Mirage-2000s have been a point of major concern both for the Pakistanis and the Turkish air forces, because of these aerodynamic issues, despite the Mirages weak engines.

The Greeks, who operated both the Mirage 2000 and F-16C considered the F-16 to be better at low altitude, low speed, hard turning fights, and Mirage 2000 to be superior at hi-hi.The F-16 would have to attempt to survive the first merge in an air combat scenario, which becomes increasingly suicidal with high off-bore sight missiles.

BVR further compounds these problems for the F-16s. In previous eras, flying hi and fast was fine, but you often had to come down low to engage a low flying enemy aircraft. Today, that becomes less relevant with longer range BVR missiles and look-down shoot-down capabilities.

The F-16 has also been adding weight over time and attempting to counterbalance this with increased engine thrust. However, since wing area remained the same, maneuverability has been sacrificed. Higher wing loading is particularly detrimental for higher altitude maneuverability. The J-10 on the other hand, has all the wing area it could ever need with a delta canard layout.

The newer block F-16s however, are great for low altitude air-to-ground missions. The high wing loading favors low fliers and the moderate wing sweep helps handling at lower speeds often necessary during ordnance delivery. The J-10 is thus not ideal for the CAS role. However, because of the range and payload advantages, the J-10 can be considered an effective deep striker. CAS was never a pressing need for the PLAAF, and the PAF has the JF-17 which is ideal for that role.

The Dragon's New Claws: The J-10B Emerging - Grande Strategy
 
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it was obvious for a long time that F-16's outdated design is not as suited for high speed high altitude air to air combat like the J-10, while being merely equally manueverable to the J-10 at subsonic speed due to lack of canards. it's safe to say that in single engined fighters, J-10 is the king right now. it is simply superior in all aspects to mirage and F-16, especially the export versions.

it used to be that china would have to trade 2 fighters for 1 of taiwan's during the 80's. now, it is taiwan that has to trade 2 mirage 2000's or f-16's for 1 J-10, if those planes manage to take off at all.
 
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it was obvious for a long time that F-16's outdated design is not as suited for high speed high altitude air to air combat like the J-10, while being merely equally manueverable to the J-10 at subsonic speed due to lack of canards. it's safe to say that in single engined fighters, J-10 is the king right now. it is simply superior in all aspects to mirage and F-16, especially the export versions.

it used to be that china would have to trade 2 fighters for 1 of taiwan's during the 80's. now, it is taiwan that has to trade 2 mirage 2000's or f-16's for 1 J-10, if those planes manage to take off at all.

The F-16 excells in high speed manuverability, in fact it's one of the best; moreover, it has the best sustained turn rate of any aircraft. The artical is very wrong and bias. Besides being wrong about the F-16's high speed manuverability they were also wrong about it's low speed manuverability.

I found this quote to be amusing:

The F-16 has also been adding weight over time and attempting to counterbalance this with increased engine thrust. However, since wing area remained the same, maneuverability has been sacrificed. Higher wing loading is particularly detrimental for higher altitude maneuverability

With advanced composites and smaller computers aircraft are actually getting lighter.
 
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The F-16 excells in high speed manuverability, in fact it's one of the best; moreover, it has the best sustained turn rate of any aircraft. The artical is very wrong and bias. Besides being wrong about the F-16's high speed manuverability they were also wrong about it's low speed manuverability.

I found this quote to be amusing:



With advanced composites and smaller computers aircraft are actually getting lighter.

well, i can find only a few statistics openly, but it seems the aircraft are very comparable in engine: both 127 kN with afterburner, but the J-10 has a higher combat ceiling (20000 m vs 18000 m) and the F-16 has a higher wing loading at 430 kg/m2 vs 335 kg/m2. Wing loading gives higher lift but decreases maneuverability. J-10's 335 kg/m2 wing loading is at the level of highly agile craft like the Eurofighter 2000 (311 kg/m2) while the F-16's 430 kg/m2 wing loading is closer to the F-104 from 1950's.
 
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The F-16 excells in high speed manuverability, in fact it's one of the best; moreover, it has the best sustained turn rate of any aircraft. The artical is very wrong and bias. Besides being wrong about the F-16's high speed manuverability they were also wrong about it's low speed manuverability.

Due to clipped delta wings F-16's performance is best at low speed and low altitude, where as J10 has very good performance at hi hi due to delta configuration. More over due to availability of canards J-10 is equaly maneuvarable at every altitude and lower speeds as well... but i'm sure that JF-17 will excel in maneuverability and handling to both J-10 & F-16 at low altitudes due to its light weight and side air intakes and cliped delta having more appropirate aspect ratio.

With advanced composites and smaller computers aircraft are actually getting lighter.
I find it ammusing that to some persons composites is one answer to every thing..... can you please tell us what part of F-16 has composites?
 
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well, i can find only a few statistics openly, but it seems the aircraft are very comparable in engine: both 127 kN with afterburner, but the J-10 has a higher combat ceiling (20000 m vs 18000 m) and the F-16 has a higher wing loading at 430 kg/m2 vs 335 kg/m2. Wing loading gives higher lift but decreases maneuverability. J-10's 335 kg/m2 wing loading is at the level of highly agile craft like the Eurofighter 2000 (311 kg/m2) while the F-16's 430 kg/m2 wing loading is closer to the F-104 from 1950's.

I never even metioned the J-10, my point is the artical is wrong about the F-16's performance.

Due to clipped delta wings F-16's performance is best at low speed and low altitude, where as J10 has very good performance at hi hi due to delta configuration. More over due to availability of canards J-10 is equaly maneuvarable at every altitude and lower speeds as well... but i'm sure that JF-17 will excel in maneuverability and handling to both J-10 & F-16 at low altitudes due to its light weight and side air intakes and cliped delta having more appropirate aspect ratio.

The performance of an aircraft has more to do with just delta wing vs conventional wing. Wing loading, wing area, angle of sweep, T/W ration and many other facts play a roll in how an aircraft manuvers/performes. Lets take the F-16 and Mig-29, for example, both are classic designs yet they couldn't be more different in porformance. The Mig-29 excells in low speed manuvering while the F-16 excells in high speed manuvering. This should tell you more about the F-16's high speed performance:

The F-16, however, enjoys an advantage in the 200 knot-plus regime. At higher speeds, we can power above them to go to the vertical. And our turn rate is significantly better. By being patient and by keeping airspeed up around 325 knots

Code One Magazine: Schlemming with the Fulcrums, F-16/MiG-29 Training in Italy — July 1995

Something to consider regarding a delta platform:

delta-winged aircraft to 'bleed off' energy very rapidly in turns, a disadvantage in aerial maneuver combat and dogfighting.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...0&mb=2&usg=AFQjCNG9W3c8R5nz8iprFWLbJvhWE3_KKw

I find it ammusing that to some persons composites is one answer to every thing.....

When did i say it was the answer to everything? I simply said composites and smaller computers tend to make aircraft lighter, in fact i'm not aware of any fighter that has gotten heavier overtime without a total re-design of the aircraft, atleast not substancially. Consider this, today we have hand-held computers and laptops that are many times more powerful and lighter than older computers, so with computers getting smaller and lighter how does an aircraft get heavier? Even if an aircraft was to get heavier due to upgrades, it wouldn't be by much, unless of course circuit boards would come with anchors.


can you please tell us what part of F-16 has composites?

This tail fin, from an F-16 jet fighter, is made of composite

Tail Fin, Composite, F-16 - Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum

The F-16 horizontal stabilizer assembly was also sensitive to the cost drivers found, as this composite part...

Cost Effectiveness of Composite Materials on the F-15 and F-16 Aircrafts.

Some people call titanium and aviation grade aluminum composites too.

The airframe is built with about 80% aviation-grade aluminum alloys, 8% steel, 3% composites, and 1.5% titanium. Control surfaces such as the leading-edge flaps, tailerons, and ventral fins make extensive use of bonded aluminum honeycomb structural elements and graphite epoxy laminate skins

F-16 Fighting Falcon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



How does F-16 have the best sustained turn rate?

I had the opportunity to speak to an F-16 pilots, he told me the F-16 does indeed have one of the highest turn rates, he could have been bias but i do beleive the F-16 has a very good turn rate. Lets go back to the F-16 vs Mig-29 mock exercises, the F-16 performed better at higher speeds and had a better longer, more sustained turn rate dispite some sources claiming the Mig-29 has the better turn rate, this could suggest that the Mig-29 is over-rated (unlikely) or the F-16 is underrated (likely).
 
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sustained turn rate, however, is not the most important. instantaneous turn rate is. humans cannot withstand sustained g-forces of over 9, however, instantaneous g-forces of even 40 times gravity can be withstood for 1 second.

while the F-16 may have the best sustained turning rate, due to pilot limitations it might not even be able to use it to the fullest, while a plane with a lower sustained turn rate but faster instantaneous one, is going to be more maneuverable in combat.
 
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^ Yup.

I've often wondered what is the sustained turn rate and Corner velocity of fighters under the same conditions.
 
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Which begs the next question. What are intake ramps for?

BTW is that a J-10B in your avatar?

My half assed explanation will be the modulation of air at supersonic speeds. I'm sure actual aviation experts will give much better definitions.

Yes it is a CG J-10B in my avatar. I used it since it was the only picture I could find that is sufficiently small to be used as an avatar.
 
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I don't think technical comparison can be done.Chinese are too much secretive about their military toys and usually keep everything classified.So it is very hard to examine Chinese Military.Heck We did not know much about JF-17 until it was transferred to Pakistan and then Pakistan Air Force released information about plane slowly.
 
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When did i say it was the answer to everything? I simply said composites and smaller computers tend to make aircraft lighter, in fact i'm not aware of any fighter that has gotten heavier overtime without a total re-design of the aircraft, atleast not substancially. Consider this, today we have hand-held computers and laptops that are many times more powerful and lighter than older computers, so with computers getting smaller and lighter how does an aircraft get heavier? Even if an aircraft was to get heavier due to upgrades, it wouldn't be by much, unless of course circuit boards would come with anchors.

Why are older F-16 variants considered more manoeuverable than later variants?
 
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