It wasn't China, but Nehru who declared 1962 war: Australian journalist Neville Maxwell

[Omega007]

@Omega007, could you explain to me how exactly is India's own internal army report in 1962, supposed to be "Chinese propaganda"?

Are you saying that the Indian army is giving out Chinese propaganda?

And what does this thread has got to do with that my friend??By the way,Sorry I have been rude so far.Won't do that from now on.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

And what does this thread has got to do with that my friend??By the way,Sorry I have been rude so far.Won't do that from now on.

But you just called me a moron in your previous post.

Like I said to @DRAY ,it's futile to argue with a moron like you,especially when you have found the Maxwell.

 

[dray]

But you just called me a moron in your previous post.

"Moron" is a synonym of "Fool", and "Fool" is not a personal insult as per you.

And why did you shift the argument to this thread that suits you?
Please continue here:

Lt-General Thorat's 1962 China warning fell on deaf ears.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

"Moron" is a synonym of "Fool", and "Fool" is not a personal insult as per you.

And why did you shift the argument to this thread that suits you?
Please continue here:

Lt-General Thorat's 1962 China warning fell on deaf ears.

I feel this thread is better suited for this discussion, since it is more related to the overall war.

@Chinese-Dragon

I was waiting for this economy thing their to come,really,I was expecting this.Actually I was quite surprised you hadn't brought your tried and tested economy rhetorics when you've got nothing to counter the claims.

Well if you think your economy can win you your war,then good for you.I choose not to go there since it has got nothing to do with the topic at hand (I hope I can do that).

And again you posted your same old internal Indian Army report sh!t,why??Can't you just counter our points??Even the biggest CPC apologist Maxwell whom you love to quote so much,said on record that Indian Army was in no position to wage even a limited war,let alone a prolonged one and they could very well have crossed the McMahon line by mistake.

They didn't even have any in-depth defensive ground works on place,the soldiers were not equipped,not clothed,heck they were not even acclimatised!!All the evidence suggests that India had no intentions to mount an offensive,there were simply no preparations on ground necessary.On the other hand,all the evidence suggests that Chinese had started to prepare for the war from as far back away as '59.So what does that tell us??

Is this simple thing that much hard to comprehend??Or is it that you just don't wanna comprehend?? And you are again playing the famine card.Very good man,we started it.....you finished it.We are the most miserable warlike creatures.......you are the sane,peacefull and most responsible nation on earth.Here,I said that.Happy now??Just leave it at that.

I am the one bringing sources in our argument, reports from the Indian Army, quotes from the Indian Naval Chief, etc.

I haven't used even a single Chinese source (there are very few Chinese sources on the 1962 War anyway).

Do you consider the Indian Army and the Indian Navy to be sources of Chinese propaganda? Who do you think they serve?

And again, if Nehru was guilty of being unprepared, then what about India today? India is currently in a relatively worse position vis-a-vis China, compared to 1962 when we were poorer than India and in the middle of a famine too.

 

[Omega007]

I feel this thread is better suited for this discussion, since it is more related to the overall war.



I am the one bringing sources in our argument, reports from the Indian Army, quotes from the Indian Naval Chief, etc.

I haven't used even a single Chinese source (there are very few Chinese sources on the 1962 War anyway).

Do you consider the Indian Army and the Indian Navy to be sources of Chinese propaganda? Who do you think they serve?

And again, if Nehru was guilty of being unprepared, then what about India today? India is currently in a relatively worse position vis-a-vis China, compared to 1962 when we were poorer than India and in the middle of a famine too.

Like I said,you are simply not competent enough to run a debate with,neither do you've the requisite grip on the language with a mountainous comprehension disability.

Your so called source,Mr Maxwell never accuses India to actually have started the war.What he criticises is the Forward Policy,which according to him,brought the war upon India.He thought that the Forward Policy had PROMPTED CHINA TO FEEL THREATENED AND PREEMPT ANY POSSIBLE INDIAN ATTACK.That doesn't equals to India attacked first!!It's not my fault that you suffer from such monumental comprehension abilities!!In all so called sources,Nehru has been accused of "PROVOKING" the Chinese,not for "STARTING" the war.But then again,what the great Chinese Dragon says has to be right all the time even if he's unable to refute the points raised by other members!!

And why suddenly this change of thread??Don't have the courage to debate like a man??

I feel this thread is better suited for this discussion, since it is more related to the overall war.



I am the one bringing sources in our argument, reports from the Indian Army, quotes from the Indian Naval Chief, etc.

I haven't used even a single Chinese source (there are very few Chinese sources on the 1962 War anyway).

Do you consider the Indian Army and the Indian Navy to be sources of Chinese propaganda? Who do you think they serve?

And again, if Nehru was guilty of being unprepared, then what about India today? India is currently in a relatively worse position vis-a-vis China, compared to 1962 when we were poorer than India and in the middle of a famine too.

Like I said,you are simply not competent enough to run a debate with,neither do you've the requisite grip on the language with a mountainous comprehension disability.

Your so called source,Mr Maxwell never accuses India to actually have started the war.What he criticises is the Forward Policy,which according to him,brought the war upon India.He thought that the Forward Policy had PROMPTED CHINA TO FEEL THREATENED AND PREEMPT ANY POSSIBLE INDIAN ATTACK.That doesn't equals to India attacked first!!It's not my fault that you suffer from such monumental comprehension issues!!In all so called sources,Nehru has been accused of "PROVOKING" the Chinese,not for "STARTING" the war.But then again,what the great Chinese Dragon says has to be right all the time even if he's unable to refute the points raised by other members!!

And why suddenly this change of thread??Don't have the courage to debate like a man??

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Like I said,you are simply not competent enough to run a debate with,neither do you've the requisite grip on the language with a mountainous comprehension disability.

Your so called source,Mr Maxwell never accuses India to actually have started the war.What he criticises is the Forward Policy,which according to him,brought the war upon India.He thought that the Forward Policy had PROMPTED CHINA TO FEEL THREATENED AND PREEMPT ANY POSSIBLE INDIAN ATTACK.That doesn't equals to India attacked first!!It's not my fault that you suffer from such monumental comprehension abilities!!In all so called sources,Nehru has been accused of "PROVOKING" the Chinese,not for "STARTING" the war.But then again,what the great Chinese Dragon says has to be right all the time even if he's unable to refute the points raised by other members!!

And why suddenly this change of thread??Don't have the courage to debate like a man??



Like I said,you are simply not competent enough to run a debate with,neither do you've the requisite grip on the language with a mountainous comprehension disability.

Your so called source,Mr Maxwell never accuses India to actually have started the war.What he criticises is the Forward Policy,which according to him,brought the war upon India.He thought that the Forward Policy had PROMPTED CHINA TO FEEL THREATENED AND PREEMPT ANY POSSIBLE INDIAN ATTACK.That doesn't equals to India attacked first!!It's not my fault that you suffer from such monumental comprehension issues!!In all so called sources,Nehru has been accused of "PROVOKING" the Chinese,not for "STARTING" the war.But then again,what the great Chinese Dragon says has to be right all the time even if he's unable to refute the points raised by other members!!

And why suddenly this change of thread??Don't have the courage to debate like a man??

More personal attacks from you, the sign of someone who is losing an argument.

And apparently you did not read the article, which quotes extensively from India's own Henderson-Brooks internal army report:

-------------------

NM: By September 1962 the Indian "forward policy" of trying to force the Chinese out of territory India claimed had built up great tension in the Western (Ladakh) sector of the border, with the Chinese army just blocking it. Then the Nehru government applied the forward policy to the McMahon Line eastern sector and when the Chinese blocked that too India in effect declared war with Nehru's announcement on October 11 that the Army had been ordered to "free our territory", which meant to attack the Chinese and drive them back.

As General Niranjan Prasad, commander of 4 Division, wrote later: "We at the front knew that since Nehru had said he was going to attack, the Chinese were certainly not going to wait to be attacked" — and of course they didn't. That's how the war began.

The Chinese attack was both reactive, in that General Kaul had begun the Indian assault on October 10, and pre-emptive because after that failure the Indian drive had been suspended to build up strength for a resumed attack.

-------------------

The Henderson-Brooks report quotes extensively from India's own armed forces and generals.

They say General Kaul started the Indian assault on October 10th, and Nehru gave the order to attack on October 11th.

Whereas the Chinese assault began on October 20th. More than a week after India had already started attacking our military posts!

 

[Omega007]

Yeah and who drew the first blood??In effect it was China who preempted the Indian side by attacking them!!So that makes whom the attacker??And what personal attacks are you talking about huh??I just stated the obvious.Your post is the perfect proof of your lack of comprehension abilities.

And what makes you assume that I haven't read those??I've been saying this all the times that fooled by his unfounded superiority complex and bravado,Nehru had made some hollow war cries and didn't put the money where the mouth was.He made some very provocative remarks,but they were just that - nothing more nothing less.

But this doesn't change the fact that your side started the actual war,not us.It just gave you the perfect opportunity to both start the war and summarily put all the blames on our shoulders. Even the article you posted and claimed I haven't read it,agrees with my views.

Now @DRAY bhai,you judge whether I was correct about the comprehension disabilities of our Chinese friend.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Yeah and who drew the first blood??In effect it was China who preempted the Indian side by attacking them!!So that makes whom the attacker??And what personal attacks are you talking about huh??I just stated the obvious.Your post is the perfect proof of your lack of comprehension abilities.

And what makes you assume that I haven't read those??I've been saying this all the times that fooled by his unfounded superiority complex and bravado,Nehru had made some hollow war cries and didn't put the money where the mouth was.He made some very provocative remarks,but they were just that - nothing more nothing less.

But this doesn't change the fact that your side started the actual war,not us.It just gave you the perfect opportunity to both start the war and summarily put all the blames on our shoulders. Even the article you posted and claimed I haven't read it,agrees with my views.

Now @DRAY bhai,you judge whether I was correct about the comprehension disabilities of our Chinese friend.

Why then is the Indian government keeping the Henderson-Brooks report classified?

It clearly shows, from testimony of Indian generals on the ground, that India had already begun the assault, more than a week before the Chinese offensive.

 

[dray]

Lt-General Thorat's 1962 China warning fell on deaf ears | Mail Online

'Previously, the only real threat against India which merited consideration was from Pakistan. To this now has been added the threat from China,' begins the 1960 assessment of Lt-Gen SPP Thorat, then army commander, Eastern Command, on the looming threat of China.

The assessment was written after a yearlong study of the Chinese build-up across the McMahon Line.

The army even war gamed Chinese incursions and India's response in the form of Exercise Lal Qila.

The 1960 secret report of then army commander, Eastern command, Lt-gen SPP Thorat which forecasts the events

The report forecasts events that take place in the coming years

What emerges from the top secret papers is that the use of the Indian Air Force in an offensive role was integral to the army's war plans. In 1960, Lt-Gen Thorat felt that the Sino- Indian ties that had remained friendly in the past had undergone a considerable change.

'This is primarily due to the claim made by China upon large territories which are clearly ours.

She (China) has also refused to recognise the McMahon Line as the international boundary and has made deliberate incursions into our territory in Ladakh, Uttar Pradesh and NEFA (North- East Frontier Agency, now Arunachal Pradesh)...


We are required to resist to the full and evict any further incursions by China.

This requires us to be fully prepared to undertake immediate military action...' his assessment said.

More than two years before the first wave of Chinese troops overran the border on October 20, 1962, Lt-Gen Thorat had warned of the impending crisis.

Exercise Lal Qila was held on March 17, 1960. Lt-Gen Thorat, it appears, knew the Chinese would attack. He had assessed military and infrastructure build-up across the McMahon line.

Lt-Gen Guru Bakshi, former director general, infantry, then a young captain, said: 'In 1959, we as young officers were addressed by Gen. Thimayya. The impression we got was that the government, especially then defence minister V.K. Krishna Menon, was not interested in professional military advice. Gen. Thimayya had red flagged the Chinese build-up. The civilian leadership was not listening.'

The roughly 100-page top secret report accessed by Headlines Today/Mail Today records the situation in 1960 and also forecasts events that could take place in the coming years.

Lt Gen Thorat wrote that the task was to 'defend our territory and that of Sikkim against aggression from Pakistan and China and be prepared to give military assistance to Nepal and maintain law and order in the Naga Hills and Tuensang Agency (NHTA)'.

With the help of detailed intelligence inputs, Lt-Gen Thorat assessed China's military build-up, and road and airfield construction plans.

Lt-Gen Shantanu Chowdhary, former vice-chief of army staff, said: 'Sadly, there was lack of coordination between the top military and political leadership.

Had effective preparations been done, when Lt-Gen Thorat warned, the situation would have been very different.'

Lt Gen Thorat was also in favour of using the air force in an offensive role. Recently, Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne also said that had air power been used then, the results of the war would have been different.

Author and military historian Kunal Varma said:'Then defence minister was not convinced that China would attack India. (Then PM) Nehru went with his view and the rest is history. Had Lt-Gen Thorat's report been taken in the right spirit, India would have been better prepared.'

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Forward Policy was just setting up some posts in response to Chinese posts in that disputed land, and for that China started a war even after repeated assurances by their leaders to resolve the dispute through peaceful means. What you are trying to prove in every thread whenever this issue comes up, is like you had an argument with someone over a table in a restaurant, and you suddenly shoot the guy for arguing with you over the table, hence the fault is his. The war was declared over a small issue and in a haste without giving enough time to a peaceful resolution.

Nehru was not military minded, he was not looking for, neither expecting a military solution to that problem, and he totally misjudged the Chinese intention believing in their false assurances, he has his share of unforgivable blunders, but that doesn't take away the blame from China for unilaterally attacking a 'friendly' country who stood by them in their trying times, and souring the relationship between the two countries which was otherwise good for thousands of years.

 

[Omega007]

Why then is the Indian government keeping the Henderson-Brooks report classified?

It clearly shows, from testimony of Indian generals on the ground, that India had already begun the assault, more than a week before the Chinese offensive.

Like I said and have been saying so far : They made some hollow warcries and didn't put the money where the mouth was,all talk but there was really no walk.

The war officially started when the PLA attacked the positions held by 7th Brigade led by Brigadier John P Dalvi in Namka Chu valley on 20th October and guess what??The entire Brigade lost its cohesion within first few hours of the contact!!That was the degree of "combat preparedness" of our forces during the '62.

So there were no question of actually doing anything on the ground,not withstanding what Nehru was uttering.Indian side thus couldn't have been the aggressor in pure military terms,although they were killing tigers with their mouths!!

 

[axisofevil]

The 1960 assessment of Lt-Gen SPP Thorat


This assessment makes Neville look like he is lying. He could be a paid rat working for the PRC.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Like I said and have been saying so far : They made some hollow warcries and didn't put the money where the mouth was,all talk but there was really no walk.

The war officially started when the PLA attacked the positions held by 7th Brigade led by Brigadier John P Dalvi in Namka Chu valley on 20th October and guess what??The entire Brigade lost its cohesion within first few hours of the contact!!That was the degree of "combat preparedness" of our forces during the '62.

So there were no question of actually doing anything on the ground,not withstanding what Nehru was uttering.Indian side thus couldn't have been the aggressor in pure military terms,although they were killing tigers with their mouths!!

According to India's own internal army report, General Kaul started the Indian offensive on October 10th, attacking Chinese posts beyond the MacMahon Line.

Then on October 20th came the Chinese offensive. That is 10 days after India had already started the attack!

The 1960 assessment of Lt-Gen SPP Thorat

This assessment makes Neville look like he is lying. He could be a paid rat working for the PRC.

The Italian Sonia Gandhi has FAR more money to pay bribes than any member of the Chinese government, she has more personal wealth than even all the members of the Standing Committee combined.

Regardless, Neville Maxwell is only quoting directly from India's own internal army report. Do you believe the Indian Army is secretly working for China?

 

[Omega007]

@Chinese-Dragon

"10 October 1962: The Skirmishes
Begin
October 10th dawned without a
hint of what was to come. At first
light, Lt. Gen. Kaul was shaving
while his batman was preparing
tea. Suddenly the calm of the
morning was shattered by the
incessant fire of small arms fire
and the thumps of mortars. The
Tseung Jong position had come
under fire and was retaliating.
Around 8:00 a.m., 600 Chinese
troops attacked the post. The
Indians totaled 56 men with only
pouch ammunition. Still they beat
back the first assault. Around 9:30
a.m. the Chinese attacked a
second time. By now the section at
Karpo La II had moved to the flank
of the Chinese. When the Chinese
emerged, it opened up on them
inflicting heavy casualties. The
Chinese retaliated by bringing
down mortar fire. As the first fire
rang out the Rajputs were strung
on the Southern bank of the
Namka Chu. According to their
orders they were hurrying up to
Yamatso La. The forward company
was about 450 meters from the
Temporary bridge with Lt. Col.
Maha Singh Rikh following behind
with the second company. Lt. Gen.
Kaul now proceeded to give
another order. He asked Lt. Col.
Rikh to hold on and set defensive
positions. Protests about the
positions being dominated by the
Thag La ridge were brushed aside.
He then left handing over
command to Brigadier Dalvi saying,
"It is your battle." Moreover a
company of the 1/9 Gorkhas had
to accompany the party to provide
protection.
Meanwhile Major Chaudhary was
asking for mortar and machine gun
fire. Brigadier Dalvi had two 3"
mortars and two machine guns but
he had to make the painful
decision of not opening fire as the
retaliatory fire from the south bank
would decimate the Rajputs who
were still milling around. Helplessly
they watched the Chinese
reinforcements clamber up for a
second attack. The Chinese
attacked a third time from three
directions and at this time Major
Chaudhary asked the unit to
withdraw. By that time the Chinese
were on Major Chaudhary's
position, hand-to-hand combat
was in process. Somehow he
withdrew what was left of his two
platoons. Sepoy Kanshi Ram
brought back a AK-47 snatched
from a Chinese soldier. The
withdrawal was made possible by
the gallantry of Naik Chain Singh.
Asking his men to fall back, Naik
Singh covered their withdrawal with
an LMG, till he was gunned down
by a machine gun burst. Major
Chaudhary, Sepoy Ram and Naik
Singh were awarded the Maha Vir
Chakra. The Punjabis outnumbered
20 to 1 lost 6 dead, 11 wounded
and 5 missing. Peking Radio
admitted to a 100 casualties."

Now you decide who started the attack on the October 10th.

By the way Dragon,we both are too adamant and probably would never agree with each other on this matter.So lets agree to disagree and move on.

No matter what we say here,no-one can't change the reality that you won.So what's done is done,both side paid very heavy price in men,but at the end your leaders - both civilian and military,did everything right,where as our leaders made mistakes after mistakes which ultimately cost us the war itself.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

@Chinese-Dragon

"10 October 1962: The Skirmishes
Begin
October 10th dawned without a
hint of what was to come. At first
light, Lt. Gen. Kaul was shaving
while his batman was preparing
tea. Suddenly the calm of the
morning was shattered by the
incessant fire of small arms fire
and the thumps of mortars. The
Tseung Jong position had come
under fire and was retaliating.
Around 8:00 a.m., 600 Chinese
troops attacked the post. The
Indians totaled 56 men with only
pouch ammunition. Still they beat
back the first assault. Around 9:30
a.m. the Chinese attacked a
second time. By now the section at
Karpo La II had moved to the flank
of the Chinese. When the Chinese
emerged, it opened up on them
inflicting heavy casualties. The
Chinese retaliated by bringing
down mortar fire. As the first fire
rang out the Rajputs were strung
on the Southern bank of the
Namka Chu. According to their
orders they were hurrying up to
Yamatso La. The forward company
was about 450 meters from the
Temporary bridge with Lt. Col.
Maha Singh Rikh following behind
with the second company. Lt. Gen.
Kaul now proceeded to give
another order. He asked Lt. Col.
Rikh to hold on and set defensive
positions. Protests about the
positions being dominated by the
Thag La ridge were brushed aside.
He then left handing over
command to Brigadier Dalvi saying,
"It is your battle." Moreover a
company of the 1/9 Gorkhas had
to accompany the party to provide
protection.
Meanwhile Major Chaudhary was
asking for mortar and machine gun
fire. Brigadier Dalvi had two 3"
mortars and two machine guns but
he had to make the painful
decision of not opening fire as the
retaliatory fire from the south bank
would decimate the Rajputs who
were still milling around. Helplessly
they watched the Chinese
reinforcements clamber up for a
second attack. The Chinese
attacked a third time from three
directions and at this time Major
Chaudhary asked the unit to
withdraw. By that time the Chinese
were on Major Chaudhary's
position, hand-to-hand combat
was in process. Somehow he
withdrew what was left of his two
platoons. Sepoy Kanshi Ram
brought back a AK-47 snatched
from a Chinese soldier. The
withdrawal was made possible by
the gallantry of Naik Chain Singh.
Asking his men to fall back, Naik
Singh covered their withdrawal with
an LMG, till he was gunned down
by a machine gun burst. Major
Chaudhary, Sepoy Ram and Naik
Singh were awarded the Maha Vir
Chakra. The Punjabis outnumbered
20 to 1 lost 6 dead, 11 wounded
and 5 missing. Peking Radio
admitted to a 100 casualties."

Now you decide who started the attack on the October 10th.

Where is the source. I'm quoting from India's own internal army report.

And now suddenly you are saying it did not start with the Chinese attack on October 20th? I guess you agree with me then.

 

[Kyle Sun]

If India has to capture some strategic posts for the sake of defending its borders ..... I say do it.

This is a genuine words .
Regardless of our own positions .
India president did the right thing but wrong way and wrong time.