It’s time to be patriotic citizens

[Energon]

The thing is Energon, that when we talk about pakistan and particularly in the west specially in the western media, they protay pakistan as some sort of hot bed for terrorists and a country that is on the verge of a collaspe. Whereas in actual its completely the opposite. It may have been like you mentioned back at zia's era but zia was not the only person involved but CIA who actually wanted this to counter communism. Pakistan as a society now is very moderate and they are people busy with their own lives. Let me quote you with an example here that majority if not all of the suecide attacks done in pakistan are mostly found to be Uzbik, afghan, chechian. But instead of being shown the way it is, instead it is shown that the whole pakistan nation is somewhat terrorists. The nuclear weapons can fall at anymoment into the hands of extremist and all kind of nonscense i would say. Extremist dont enjoy even 10% of the majority in pakistan and this can easily be found out with the results of polls. But some what the western media only wants to see what they call the truth and nothing more.

IMHO what the western media says is really of no consequence (from a security point of view; it may have secondary economic implications). What they do or don't portray about Pakistan really has no bearing what so ever on the people of Pakistan and the nation itself where the problem exists. Which is why it is imperative that the latter tackle this issue not because they're being forced to do so by the USA or another western power, but rather because it is integral to it's own survival.

As Ive said before many other parties including the CIA have played a role in this phenomenon... but it is Pakistan that has been the petri dish of this dangerous experiment gone array. The CIA may have given loads of money and the Arabs and central Asian Islamic states may have provided the manpower and Saudi has been central in the indoctrination of these ideas (they certainly aren't of Pakistani origin)... but a significant number of Pakistanis have also been successfully socially engineered to endorse all of this. Zia and his regime may be long gone, but the after effects of aggressive policies are still very much prevalent in parts of the society... moreover, the whole thing is self sustaining so it will keep on persisting unless something is done to curb it.

Now I'm not saying that all Pakistanis ascribe to this ideology... not at all; it is clearly evident that many people of Pakistan want nothing to do with this mess and they also happen to be the recipients it's negative outfall. But that doesn't change the fact that there are many other Pakistanis who have in fact been indoctrinated with this belief and want to practice it. A permanent solution can't be found unless these individuals are convinced otherwise.

Which brings me back to the main point is that instead of treating radicalism as an imposition which requires "fighting off" (mostly in the military sense) what actually needs to be done is to tackle this through policies of social change with military operations only being one small part of it. You can bomb and kill foreign fighters and tribals all you want, but there will just be more to replace them because the ideology which holds roots in parts of Pakistan will still persist.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

^^ Well said!

 

[Cheetah786]

Energon couldnt agree any more

 

[Neo]

And finally Afghanistan - the entire "solution" in this region Peters puts upon a reunification of all the Pashtun territories. But what of the other ethnic groups in Afghanistan? They already don't get along, and will they like the idea of a detested majority becoming an even larger one? Why assume the Pakistani Pashtun want to have anything to do with the backward, violence plagued, and devastated country that is Afghanistan? I have heard of doing things to progress, but this would be a regression for the Pakistanis Mr. Peters wishes to "reunite" with their respective "ethnic" or "blood kin". RR and Jana may be better qualified to speak to this though.

His plan sounds grand on paper, as do most simplistic neo con visions of reshaping the world, but takes into account none of the subtleties that exist in the region, nor the intra-ethnic dynamics that would create a nightmare of war and conflict - but perhaps that is the very idea here....

Absolutely right!

If Mr Peter has a vision to bring peace and stability in the region by reuniting ethnic groups he certainly needs to spend some time understanding the geography, demography and history of the area. There are flaws in his throry and his redrawn map, but then again Americans don´t have a good reputation when it comes to geography and topography...lol

Whats left of Pakistan in the redrawn map is just the half of territory which ethnically and historically belongs to punjabi´s...atleast reunite it as a whole as Punjab was before prtiotion took place.

Go back to school Mr Peters!

 

[MastanKhan]

Energon,

Lot of us are clueless about how to treat fanatics and radicals. The lovey dovey talk and social change is not going to have any effect on them. People are under-estimating their resolve and energy. Once this demon is created, the only way to get rid of it is by its destruction. These fundos and radicals didnot pop out of the soil just one day.

There are two ways to bring them down---
# 1. a non stop massive ground and air strike and seal off all the borders--de-weaponize the zone and establish summary courts for summary executions of all and everyone associated with the fundos. And for goodness sake keep these jirgas away for awhile.

Next the govt needs to keep a watch on the maulivis---anyone preaching terror against the govt. and civilians should be charged with treason and must be executed.

# 2. if you cannot succeed the first time, then refer to point # 1 and start all over again with more energy, determination and vigour till you achieve your goals.

You can only talk to people who will listen to you and sit with you to resolve the issues and meet you halfway---others who don't even want to talk to you, when their way is the only way and the rest take the highway and they firmly believe that 'death do us part', then that is how they need to be treated.

Gen Kiyani started strong---but again this assault has whimpered down in the FATA. Now there is another fanatic leader who cannot be captured. Prove me wrong Kiyani.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Energon,

Lot of us are clueless about how to treat fanatics and radicals. The lovey dovey talk and social change is not going to have any effect on them. People are under-estimating their resolve and energy. Once this demon is created, the only way to get rid of it is by its destruction. These fundos and radicals didnot pop out of the soil just one day.

There are two ways to bring them down---
# 1. a non stop massive ground and air strike and seal off all the borders--de-weaponize the zone and establish summary courts for summary executions of all and everyone associated with the fundos. And for goodness sake keep these jirgas away for awhile.

Next the govt needs to keep a watch on the maulivis---anyone preaching terror against the govt. and civilians should be charged with treason and must be executed.

# 2. if you cannot succeed the first time, then refer to point # 1 and start all over again with more energy, determination and vigour till you achieve your goals.

You can only talk to people who will listen to you and sit with you to resolve the issues and meet you halfway---others who don't even want to talk to you, when their way is the only way and the rest take the highway and they firmly believe that 'death do us part', then that is how they need to be treated.

Gen Kiyani started strong---but again this assault has whimpered down in the FATA. Now there is another fanatic leader who cannot be captured. Prove me wrong Kiyani.

MK,

You can kill a person and a group of persons who are not agreeable to your views. However, you cannot kill an idea or an ideology.

Therefore, the idea of bombing and razing an area to rid yourself of the population, some of whom are terrorists and some who support terrorists would be wiped out.

So far so good.

What about collateral killing of those who simply want to lead their lives and who are not involved in either sides of the problem i.e. the innocent?

They also die.

But then, those who survive will be so bitter for suffering and lamenting their dead for no fault of theirs that they will become more fierce a fighter for the killing of their innocent dead.

MIlitary action, and that too, deadly action such as artillery and air strikes are no panacea. Such area weapons bring only temporary lull at best, but can never effect a solution.

Winning the mind is the answer.

Killing the idea and the ideology alone can give a permanent solution!

SAS type of action or clandestine operation against known terrorists is more effective than deadly military action. The only problem for such action is that good intelligence is required. Even so, the international human rights organisation will still make a song and dance over it!

 

[MastanKhan]

Salim,

You are giving the terrorists more credit than they deserves. Massive ground operations in the cities, feet on the ground, will make them move into mountain hideouts---where they will get bombed. Securing the borders would stop the in flow of weapons and ammunition. The millitary will have to walk through the streets to clear the towns. Now these towns are not that populated, so in town gorilla warfare is not going to work for the enemy.

There was milltary action in balochistan in the 70's, lot os people got killed, what happened afterwards---the retaliation was started when the govt didnot do anything for 30 years to develop the poor areas---if the govt would have done that, balochistan would have been a success story.

It is human nature to forget about death and misery and destruction if there is an oppurtunity available for a better life afterwards. MIND IS THE SLAVE OF THE NEEDS OF THE LIVING PEOPLE. The only problem over here is that these are not ordinary people. This is HASSAN BIN SABAH all over again. And you how they got taken to task.

As I keep saying, we pakistanis are not capable of understanding as to how to deal with this deadly issue in the right manner.

Take the RED MOSQUE issue---anybody who is somebody is becoming a hostage negotiator----the hostage taker is holding open public interviews---the hostage taker has free phone line connection to the outside world---the brain washed men and women who are ready to kill themsleves are portrayed as innocent victims---the tv channels had a free for all---the tv interviews after the fact glorified the hostage takers---the people inside the mosque were made to come on the tv and made to tell their sob-story---a firestorm was being created by the media and and Judge Chaudhry added frenzy to it as well.

Nations have to pay a very heavy price for their welfare and freedom, but if it can be avoided, it should be at all costs and that is done by taking pro-active measures.

If pakistan does not stop this mayhem now---there are terrible things on their way and it won't stop with negotiation but with the blood of Osama, Al Zawaheri, maulana Fazalullah etc.

Sometimes drastic measures need to be adopted to stop terrible things from happening.

These steps should have been taken when Musharraf associated himself with the americans----but a lack of vision on the part the people made things very difficult.

Pakistan was crying the same sob story again and again---"you will use us and leave us"----yes they will do that---we know that and they also know that---then why not to take advantage of the situation and rip out their pockets and make them pay heavily. That didnot happen.

SAS type operation will work on a smaller scale. On an sas scale operation, these people are too many and too well trained and they will take out the sas. What this thing needs is a full scale millitary operation with a hundred thousand millitary troops with complete support and giving enough time to the force commander to do the job and de-weaponize the area and keep it secure and move all the afghan population across the border. Pakistan should have done it years ago. Today we would have reaped the rewards.

Where were the SAS or the special force at TORA BORA, when they could have made the difference.

When I say millitary, that is what I mean, not para millitary troops.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Salim,

Mastan Khan's position is strikingly similar to that advocated by the Americans and quite a few on the WAB - where what you are advocating would be called "weakness" and "lack of leadership".

Its interesting that your position actually jives quite well with that of most Pakistanis - a more "holistic" approach to addressing the problem.

NATO does not seem to care that it leaves Afghanistan divided, going by the opinions there, provided the divided people engage in shouting matches rather than Kalashnikov duels. And what if some of the divided hearkened for the customs of old? What was the point of keeping the Taliban out now, when they are to have a voice and be heard later?

The question is, humanity being what it is - and the lust for power and all, how long before a "divided" Afghanistan resorts to settling issues the old way?

MK:

More often than not, I find myself supporting the position you described, as the bombings mount, and the toll exacted on our nation and its people by these barbarians grows. But read this excerpt from a study done on one of AQ's strategists, and consider the thought that AQ is said to be shifting from Afghanistan to Pakistan:

Al-Suri’s slogan is: nizam, la tanzim, ‘System, not organisation’. In other words, there should be ‘an operative system’ or template, available anywhere for anybody, wishing to participate in the global jihad either on his own or with a small group of trusted associates, and there should not exist any ‘organisation for operations’. Hence, the global jihadist movement should discourage any direct organisational bonds between the leadership and the operative units. Leadership should only be exercised through ‘general guidance’ and the operative leaders should exist only at the level of small cells. The glue in this highly decentralised movement is nothing else than ‘a common aim, a common doctrinal program and a comprehensive (self-) educational program’.

The same goal of decentralisation is applied to financing and training. All cells should be self-sustained financially, with the possible exception of start-up money from jihadist activists termed ‘cell builders’. The latter category include skilled jihadists whose primary task is to create new independent cells, without connecting them to any organisational structure. The ‘cell builder’ is an Achilles heel in the system, and various precautions are taken to minimize the risk associated with his role. He is supposed to disappear from the scene before any operative activity commences, either by going to another country, going completely underground, or participating in a martyrdom operation.

http://www.mil.no/multimedia/archive/00076/_The_Al-Qaida_strate_76568a.pdf

If the new face of terrorism is this isolated, primarily leaderless "cell", then how effective will the bombing campaign you describe be? Given the porous borders our nation exists with.

 

[roadrunner]

Terrorism (in the setting of the Kashmir conflict which is categorized as an Insurgency) is tactic employed by the party that does not have the adequate strength to openly resist or confront their adversary on account of a smaller force and logistical limitations.

BULLSHYT. According to (this) your definition of terrorism, terrorism is applicable to the weaker side in an asymmetric conflict. Whatever happened to international law in deciding who was a terrorist, and who was not?

A predator is one who has a stronger logistical base and larger resource that puts him in a position of power which is then used to commit acts of violence against people who are unable to defend themselves. (I know you're not much for reading, but if that ever changes I suggest you look into Bard O'neal's "Insurgency and Terrorism: Inside modern revolutionary warfare)

Semantics. Just because "Bard O'Neal" calls all larger units in a conflict as "predators" and all weaker units as "terrorists" is just a play with words, most likely to suit particular agendas. During the Peninsular wars, Napoleon started an unprovoked war against the Spaniards who responded in turn with asymmetric type warfare. Were the Spanish "terrorists" for defending their country, and Napoleon a "predator" for invading, in this similar situation?! Of course not! One army (Napoleon's) had invaded a sovereign country (Spain) in an unprovoked assault (illegal by today's laws, but perhaps not at that time). Another example. take the case of a man who rapes a weaker woman. Who is terrorising who here? The man is obviously terrorising the woman, even though she is fighting back. It's a question of law, in the rape case, country law, and in the warfare case, international law.

You're arguing a point of semantics here, a very disingenous case, by claiming one side are "predators" the other are "terrorists" simply because one side is stronger and doing the "hunting", the other side is weaker, and therefore doing the "defending". If you need a guide, use international law to determine who the terrorists are, then one only need observe the number of UN resolutions that the Indian Army is in violation of in Kashmir.

I might get to the rest of your post later if I have time to waste.

 

[MastanKhan]

Agnostic muslim,

Thank you for your comments. Pakistanis are paying a very heavy price for not doing what they should have done years ago. They will pay a heavier price in the future for not doing when they still had the time.

Later in history----our great grand children will blame it on a lack of mental maturity of their parents and decision makers for the tragedies and hardships that would take over the nation.

Pakistanis are praying that this menace would go away somehow---they always pray that all their troubles, somehow vanish into thin air and they come out of it smelling like roses. They also pray for Allah to provide guidance to their leaders and show them the right way to rule. That is where the holistic attitude of the pakistanis comes into place----.

What is happening in afghanistan is not different than what happened years ago. After the soviets left, the afghans were at each others throats---if Nato leaves now, the afghans will be at the same crossroads of the past.

People do not know that muslim nations have a very strong history of highly trained and dedicated assasins controlled by certain interest groups. Our present day suicide bombers are no different from those killers of the old. They are young---they are provided drugs to control their minds, they are given lectures about the belief to control their thought, they are put through obedience process to follow the leader, they are told that they are the beloved of Allah and MOhammed, they are told of the wonderful life in the world hereafter, they are promised 72 virgins that will be theirs to keep till eternity. The sex starved, poverty stricken, mind controlled, boys and young men are an easy target to manipulate.

Pakistani intelligence services will have to target their recruiters. Pakistan will have to enforce harsh anti terrorist laws---pakistani judges will have to wake up from their slumber and start doing their jobs that they are being paid for to punish the criminals---pakistan courts will have to enforce treason charges against the culprits---the culprits would need to be summarily executed in large numbers.

Simply put, pakistan has but no choice and pakistanis have nowhere to run and hide from this terror.

Why is al qaeda focussing on pakistan---because they see their end game here. It will be either their graveyard over here or they will make the inroads thay believe that they can make. They have destroyed iraq, afghanistan is lost, pakistan is the only one left----of all the fool nations of the world----that provided sanctuary to al qaeda.

 

[mujahideen]

Its seems to me that our national spirit has been lost somewhere. We must revive it for the sake of Pakistan.

 

[roadrunner]

Its seems to me that our national spirit has been lost somewhere. We must revive it for the sake of Pakistan.

The national spirit should be based on a secular Islam, Pakistan first attitude. That would exclude those on here that believe Pakistan should be looking after the interests of other countries/religious groups simply because they happen to be Muslim. A good start in thise direction would be to start teaching a lot more pre-Islamic history in schools, and better education for all instead of having to rely on religious schools. It would come with time as the economy improves, and more money can be spent on more secular government funded schools instead of privately funded religious schools.

 

[IceCold]

A Five way strategy is what we need today.
1) Afghan pakistan boder should had been sealed off by now. Somehow i am very curious to know that why is US opposing such a move? Anyhow it was the job of the government to make this decision irrespective of what others had to say. Afghans are crossing boder as if they are going to another market and this should stop because they are terrorists and the price of this negelence has to be paid by the ordinary people of pakistan who get killed in the suecide attacks done by these afghan, checian and uzbik terrorists coming into pakistan through afghanistan.

2) All of the afghan pakistan boder has to be mined and fenced. Somehow that too was also delayed by the government due to US pressure. Now US pressure wont stop because to them things only go their way and not the other way, we have to make a decision, if we have to mine and fence the border then perhaps we do it now keeping aside what every one else has to say given its the people of pakistan that suffer and not anyone else. This time musharraf needs to step up in safeguarding pakistan's interest and not what US or anybody else has to say.

3) The most important in my opinion is to include people of the tribal leaders moderates with the government. Development, jobs should be created, basic neccessities of life water, gas, electricity should be provided to all. Make sure that the area gets its due share and people there are not left for the militants to use them. Militants are only successful where there is unemployment, lack of proper education,money etc. If these two factors could be addressed, we sure can break the back of terrorism.

4) All afghans should be thrown out of the country immediately without any delay. A few years back this was happening but it stoped now. Again we will face strong international pressure, but then again we need to make tough decisions on the bases that its the people of pakistan that suffer and not anyone else. This should have been done along ago, these no good bastards are just a burden over the economy and most importantly they are not even thankful for what we did for them moreover they are threatning to destabilize pakistan by ploting terrorism.

5) Last but not the least, i've been saying this for quite some time now, pakistan needs to address places from where the terrorism is being sponspered into pakistan, most importantly afghanistan, though it is not connected to AQ but it still holds its significance because after all terrorism done by AQ in US or by foreign sponspered elements in pakistan, its terrorism, the difference just lies in the interests. While US on one hand considers only AQ and tailban as terrorists, there are many others who are just doing it into pakistan from afghanistan right under the US eye. For some reason US tends to look the other way because that does not concern them and more importantly pakistanies are affected. To take care of such a threat, the PA and PAF needs to take a much more mature role. Now i know this isnt easy provided the much international pressure that we will face but we need to do it in our interest. If we have creadible information, we must not hesitate crossing the boder and bomb the living hell out these bastards.
Some time for extreme situations, extreme measures need to be taken in the greater interest of the country. Most terrorist wanted by pakistan are hiding out in afghanistan, that we and we alone need to take care off and that too by the means of force. God bless pakistan.

 

[khanz]

A Five way strategy is what we need today.
1) Afghan pakistan boder should had been sealed off by now. Somehow i am very curious to know that why is US opposing such a move? Anyhow it was the job of the government to make this decision irrespective of what others had to say. Afghans are crossing boder as if they are going to another market and this should stop because they are terrorists and the price of this negelence has to be paid by the ordinary people of pakistan who get killed in the suecide attacks done by these afghan, checian and uzbik terrorists coming into pakistan through afghanistan.

2) All of the afghan pakistan boder has to be mined and fenced. Somehow that too was also delayed by the government due to US pressure. Now US pressure wont stop because to them things only go their way and not the other way, we have to make a decision, if we have to mine and fence the border then perhaps we do it now keeping aside what every one else has to say given its the people of pakistan that suffer and not anyone else. This time musharraf needs to step up in safeguarding pakistan's interest and not what US or anybody else has to say.

3) The most important in my opinion is to include people of the tribal leaders moderates with the government. Development, jobs should be created, basic neccessities of life water, gas, electricity should be provided to all. Make sure that the area gets its due share and people there are not left for the militants to use them. Militants are only successful where there is unemployment, lack of proper education,money etc. If these two factors could be addressed, we sure can break the back of terrorism.

4) All afghans should be thrown out of the country immediately without any delay. A few years back this was happening but it stoped now. Again we will face strong international pressure, but then again we need to make tough decisions on the bases that its the people of pakistan that suffer and not anyone else. This should have been done along ago, these no good bastards are just a burden over the economy and most importantly they are not even thankful for what we did for them moreover they are threatning to destabilize pakistan by ploting terrorism.

5) Last but not the least, i've been saying this for quite some time now, pakistan needs to address places from where the terrorism is being sponspered into pakistan, most importantly afghanistan, though it is not connected to AQ but it still holds its significance because after all terrorism done by AQ in US or by foreign sponspered elements in pakistan, its terrorism, the difference just lies in the interests. While US on one hand considers only AQ and tailban as terrorists, there are many others who are just doing it into pakistan from afghanistan right under the US eye. For some reason US tends to look the other way because that does not concern them and more importantly pakistanies are affected. To take care of such a threat, the PA and PAF needs to take a much more mature role. Now i know this isnt easy provided the much international pressure that we will face but we need to do it in our interest. If we have creadible information, we must not hesitate crossing the boder and bomb the living hell out these bastards.
Some time for extreme situations, extreme measures need to be taken in the greater interest of the country. Most terrorist wanted by pakistan are hiding out in afghanistan, that we and we alone need to take care off and that too by the means of force. God bless pakistan.

hello mr icecold

I completely agree with you but I for once I think it's not america's fault I believe it was the afghans and karzai that opposed it.I heard in the news pak even sought U.S and EU help for fencing it the americans were backing it they even offered us help with biometric technology.Afghanistan was the one that kicked up a big fuss with the nonsense excuse about splitting famillies and trying to get international support for their cause and it was our fault for partially caving in to them
In reality they just didn't want to make a permanent boundary as it would mean acceptance of the durand line as the clear international border.Though i was kinda pleased to see pak government show a little backbone for once and say they will go ahead and fence regardless of afghan objections .I believe they've already completed the first part hopefully the rest will be finished soon.

 

[A.Rahman]

The national spirit should be based on a secular Islam

Thats an Oxymoron.