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It might be a dumb question to ask... is blue flame of J20 normal?

Zipper1724

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New to here. Sorry for my dumb questions.

In my perception, the military jet plane has red flames. But this Chinese testing machine has the BLUE flame. So, my question is which one is better? The blue one or the red one?
Besides, i will appreciate, if someone can give me more about jet engine of J20.


d26915b47511a20a481cc009d0326cc6.jpg


plz
 
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Not a dumb question at all.

Exhaust color is from temperature. White is hottest, then the cooler blue, then the cooler orange/yellow. The hotter the engine the less durable it is. Hotter does not necessary mean better performance, especially if you have to run blue hot even before afterburner.
 
Not a dumb question at all.

Exhaust color is from temperature. White is hottest, then the cooler blue, then the cooler orange/yellow. The hotter the engine the less durable it is. Hotter does not necessary mean better performance, especially if you have to run blue hot even before afterburner.

thanks a lot. its explicit and clear.
colour means temperature, but temperature can not guarantee performance


Nice pics. it helps. thanks anyway~
 
It's all about synthetic fuel additives. The fuel-oxidizer mixture is rich in Hydrogen so the exhaust is 'reducing' and not 'oxidizing' in chemical effect. This hydrogen rich exhaust leaves the nozzle with hydrogen radiating very pale blue light.
 
Not a dumb question at all.

Exhaust color is from temperature. White is hottest, then the cooler blue, then the cooler orange/yellow. The hotter the engine the less durable it is. Hotter does not necessary mean better performance, especially if you have to run blue hot even before afterburner.

So Gambit can you please elaborate in WVR scenario how this blue flame may effect on situation is this vulnerable for aircraft. 2ndly is this due to the mixture or composition of fuel or the engine design.


I had asked some relevant question few years earlier but couldn't get a reasonable answer.
 
thanks a lot. its explicit and clear.
colour means temperature, but temperature can not guarantee performance
Yes it does it has to be with proper burning

An inner zone of unburned gas; a middle zone called the reduction zone or reducing flame, since there the supply of oxygen is deficient and the oxygen is therefore removed from an oxide placed in it; and an outer, or oxidizing, zone. The candle flame is extremely complex. Several zones can be observed: a nonluminous inner portion where the melted wax produces gases; a middle area where the gases are decomposed to hydrogen, which burns, and carbon, which is heated to incandescence; and an outer, hardly visible region in which combustion is complete (carbon dioxide and water being formed). Flames are colored by the introduction of various substances, a fact utilized in the flame test for the identification of certain metals
 
So Gambit can you please elaborate in WVR scenario how this blue flame may effect on situation is this vulnerable for aircraft.
A blue exhaust came from a higher combustion temperature, which translate to a higher infrared signature. Am sure you can take it from here.

2ndly is this due to the mixture or composition of fuel or the engine design.
From both...

First...You should understand that a higher combustion temperature does not mean the engine is of a 'poor' design. There are many factors working together to qualify any engine as 'poor' or 'superior' when compares against each other.

Second...As a preemptive measure in case anyone tries to tell you that if China is able to design an airliner engine, China can design a military class jet engine. That is completely wrong.

b8d90a82a7a141f68579513211a1fb18.jpg


In the above, you can see the great differences between an airliner jet engine (middle) and a military class jet engine (bottom). The top illustration is to show what they have in common: a combustion core.

The airliner jet engine is called a 'high bypass turbofan' type. The majority of thrust comes from the (green) fan assembly. It is this air mass and flow that we call 'bypass' air.

The military class jet engine is also a turbofan design but the bypass air is so low that the engine design is nearly a 'turbojet' type. The bulk of thrust comes from exhaust.

In terms of performance, if you want high thrust and acceleration, you want the turbojet design. If you want fuel economy and durability, very vital to the financial bottom line of an airline company, then you want the high bypass turbofan design. In the middle lies the low bypass turbofan design, which is in the bulk of jet fighters out there.

What distinguish one low bypass engine from another ? Efficiency. As in how effective does the engine burns fuel. For example...An engine that can regulate fuel flow and atomization in tenths or even hundredths of percentage points is more efficient than an engine that regulate fuel flow and atomization in single digit percentage points. There are many other factors involved that are beyond the scope of this discussion. I just want you to know that a military class jet engine is a wholly different beast than an airliner jet engine.

So while a higher combustion temperature does not mean an inferior engine design, it does mean materials will break down sooner than when under lower temperature. This is where Russia and China are behind the US and other Western companies: materials science, specifically engine blade composites. Engine hours are closely monitored and a fighter will be taken offline for engine change if the engine approaches the limit of those operating hours. In this case, an engine with a lower combustion temperature with high durability blade composites will have longer engine operating hours, therefore, can stay on the 'combat ready' status longer.

Am sure you can see where this is heading.
 
Yes it does it has to be with proper burning

An inner zone of unburned gas; a middle zone called the reduction zone or reducing flame, since there the supply of oxygen is deficient and the oxygen is therefore removed from an oxide placed in it; and an outer, or oxidizing, zone. The candle flame is extremely complex. Several zones can be observed: a nonluminous inner portion where the melted wax produces gases; a middle area where the gases are decomposed to hydrogen, which burns, and carbon, which is heated to incandescence; and an outer, hardly visible region in which combustion is complete (carbon dioxide and water being formed). Flames are colored by the introduction of various substances, a fact utilized in the flame test for the identification of certain metals



Word by word copy?
Why not give site/URL for people to learn more....

an inner zone of unburned gas; a middle zone called the reduction zone or reducing flame, since there the supply of oxygen is deficient and the oxygen is therefore removed from an oxide placed in it; and an outer, or oxidizing, zone. The candle flame is extremely complex. Several zones can be observed: a nonluminous inner portion where the melted wax produces gases; a middle area where the gases are decomposed to hydrogen, which burns, and carbon, which is heated to incandescence; and an outer, hardly visible region in which combustion is complete (carbon dioxide and water being formed). Flames are colored by the introduction of various substances, a fact utilized in the flame test for the identification of certain metals.

Read more: flame | Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/science/flame.html#ixzz3G6bDs5WV
 
A blue exhaust came from a higher combustion temperature, which translate to a higher infrared signature. Am sure you can take it from here.

This is something which I understand for long as I have seen a Chines engine may be WS-10G with some Chinese Flanker few years earlier and have asked the similar question but didn't get a satisfying answer. I think this is imperative in WVR scenario with Heat Seeking missiles.
 
Word by word copy?
Why not give site/URL for people to learn more....
an inner zone of unburned gas; a middle zone called the reduction zone or reducing flame, since there the supply of oxygen is deficient and the oxygen is therefore removed from an oxide placed in it; and an outer, or oxidizing, zone. The candle flame is extremely complex. Several zones can be observed: a nonluminous inner portion where the melted wax produces gases; a middle area where the gases are decomposed to hydrogen, which burns, and carbon, which is heated to incandescence; and an outer, hardly visible region in which combustion is complete (carbon dioxide and water being formed). Flames are colored by the introduction of various substances, a fact utilized in the flame test for the identification of certain metals.

Yes you are right shoudl have mentioned link (no disrespect to author) !! should have mentioned that By the way i have done quite a study in flame and combustion thats y pasted link which could be self explanatory
 
@gambit Thanks for this explanation. I have read somewhere that F-18 engine F-414 is a Turbofan and Turbojet Hybrid engine and called Leaky engine. Can you shed some light over it.
 
j10b fit WS10G has orange flame. the J20 picture you post is not the latest prototype 2012. China can produce decent fighter engines, I can show you as many pictures as you guys want.

@gambit Thanks for this explanation. I have read somewhere that F-18 engine F-414 is a Turbofan and Turbojet Hybrid engine and called Leaky engine. Can you shed some light over it.
that's why F18 sucks in Dog fighter? I mean F18 is never gonna be a great fighter.

said China will procure max to 144 pops of customized Su35 variant from Russia.

the military cooperation between China and Russia will shake the whole world. when India's MMRCA get stagnant, China is getting more and more stronger.
 
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those MKI will automatically turns into crap after China study Su35, we got the upper hands this time.
 
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