Israel's future tank - The "Carmel"

[Natan]

60mm HVMS?

IMI has a 120mm low recoil gun.

 

[Penguin]

IMI has a 120mm low recoil gun.

The earlier remark pointed out that the gun was rather ... small caliber. Hence firrs 40mm was suggested. I suggested 60mm HVMS derived gun. You suggest 120mm low recoil force gun?

 

[YeBeWarned]

60mm HVMS?

It looks like it but can we put it in a category of Tank? i mean it looks more like APC

 

[Natan]

The earlier remark pointed out that the gun was rather ... small caliber. Hence firrs 40mm was suggested. I suggested 60mm HVMS derived gun. You suggest 120mm low recoil force gun?

I suggest real IMI RG120 will be on some real Carmel vehicles somewhere in 2027. Right now the gun looks small simply because CGI artist didn't care much about caliber.

 

[Penguin]

I suggest real IMI RG120 will be on some real Carmel vehicles somewhere in 2027. Right now the gun looks small simply because CGI artist didn't care much about caliber.

Could well be something like 40mm or 45mm Cased Telescoped Armament System (CTAS) / Cased Telescoped Weapon System (CTWS)
http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/cased-telescoped-armament-system/
http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/cased-telescoped-armament-system/history/
http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/cased-telescoped-armament-system/capabilities-and-system-description/

 

[Natan]

Could well be something like 40mm or 45mm Cased Telescoped Armament System (CTAS) / Cased Telescoped Weapon System (CTWS)
http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/cased-telescoped-armament-system/
http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/cased-telescoped-armament-system/history/
http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/cased-telescoped-armament-system/capabilities-and-system-description/

It is supposed to be a familiy of vehicles with common pltaform, so yes.

MEDEVAC with some heavy machine guns, IFV with medium caliber, tank destroyer with larger caliber, mortar carrier with self-loading mortar system, CEV with dozer blade and MCLC, VSHORAD/CRAM with directed energy weapon, reconnaissance/EW vehicle with SIGINT/ELINT, and so on.

 

[DavidSling]

 

[DavidSling]

On 11/02/2019 Jane's posted a video from IAV (International Armored Vehicles), showing an interview given by Shmulik Olanski, Head of Innovation Programs Center, Land and Naval division.

In the interview, Olanski talks a lot about Rafael's evolving future armored vehicle suite intended to provide mission support to the two crewmembers, also known in Israel as the Carmel.

In the Carmel project, three teams, or three companies, were pitted against each other in a $100m competition between Rafael, IAI, and Elbit, to design a cockpit for the next generation AFV of the IDF.

One of the key aspects of the cockpit are the ability of the crew to observe their surroundings almost seamlessly and thus prevent casualties from small arms fire when crewmembers stick their heads out of the vehicle.

I remind that the concepts are as following:

Elbit - IronVision helmet mounted system.

Rafael - Panoramic wide screen setup.

IAI - Combination of wide screens and a helmet.

IAI has still not presented its concept in a visual way, nor has publicly revealed any details about it, other than it being a combination of Elbit's and Rafael's concepts.

Elbit's concept was also revealed a while ago:

Elbit has also presented a prototype at roughly when Rafael only began working on their solution, but that won't seem to be an issue, except for one thing:

Elbit's solution has already been picked for the Merkava 4 Barack MBT, Eitan IFV, and presumably also the Namer AFV.

This may create some bias within the IDF for Elbit's system for the Carmel, however the Carmel is supposed to be a clean sheet design, and the competition is only supposed to examine various concepts, not the end product's performance.

It is also in my belief that Elbit's control of the BMS market will not affect the competition.

The purpose of this post is to provide a brief summary of the pros and cons of each of the presented solutions.

Rafael
Pros

• Crewmen can point to the other crewman on the screen, and be sure they are observing the same thing. Especially useful in ambush scenarios, or in recon duties when the BMS is not yet fed with the target data or cannot pick up the target.
• Easy data input via touching the screens.
• More intuitive for a larger crew - a 3rd human crewman may be added for special missions.
• More rugged.
• Can possibly display other critical mission data when external cameras are offline.
• May be used to interface with other systems in the tank during the mission, when cameras are online.
• Stimulates team-work.

Cons

• Coverage is limited to the location of the screens, requires movement of the independent panoramic sights to observe high elevation targets, which may take up some of the visual space for the other crewman.
• Either analog and thus inferior movement of the independent sights or complex eye tracking technology.

Elbit
Pros

• More intuitive for the single crewman, seeing everything right in front of his eyes.
• Easier to operate the independent (TC or gunner's) sights.
• Possibly less complex technology to move the independent sights (inertial navigation vs eye tracking).
• May interface with different sights without interfering with the work of the other crewman.
• Higher coverage.

Cons

• Harder to communicate with the other crewmen over shared objectives.
• Stimulates solo operation.
• Less rugged.
• If external cameras go offline, the vehicle's backup interface and systems may be more difficult to operate.
• Difficult data input, may require separate computer or only allow commander to do so via less intuitive methods.

Those were just the pros and cons I could think of in the total span of maybe 5 minutes.



Carmel
Now onto examining the video itself:



Here we can see one of the points I was talking about earlier. The man on the left points for the guy on the right, allowing easy interaction between the two crewmembers who can easily be distracted by vast amounts of incoming data.

Touching the screen also allows the crewmembers to easily lay new data for each other and on the BMS. For example selecting a target and classifying it as hostile/non-hostile.



The Carmel in this video, seems to be more clearly defined as a tankette, rather than an IFV, which on the concept level seems to replace the MBT altogether, or rather add a brand new vehicle which is yet unknown how it will fit in existing formations.

It could be an organic addition to infantry or recon battalions, but no doctrine has been developed for such a vehicle. Even in the Russian army where they have at least once considered purchasing BMPT vehicles as tank escorts, there is no solid doctrine proposal.



Same old Trophy system with no changes may indicate that no serious work has yet been done to integrate Iron Fist's launchers onto the Trophy system, even though the IDF required it for the Barack MBT.

Or it could just be a matter of editing choice, choosing to focus on the situational awareness technologies rather than unrelated APS development.



Another image here shows that Rafael chose to use 2 independent cameras, one for each crew member, which may be a result of the requirement to allow every crewmember to assume the role of the other in case the other is incapable of fulfilling his mission (injury/death).

But what's more interesting is that Rafael proposed using 2 RCWS as well.

The merits of such a proposal are disputable, but if two separate sights are already required, then adding an RCWS is considered an inexpensive upgrade, and could make engagement of targets more comfortable for the crew, knowing each one can control an MG at any given time for self defense in tight areas.

http://armor-il.blogspot.com/2019/02/rafaels-suite-for-future-armored.html?m=1

 

[DavidSling]

 

[jupiter2007]

I am sure Chinese are already working on something like this, may not be as advance.

 

[DavidSling]

IDF UNVEILS ITS FUTURE ARMORED FIGHTING VEHICLE: THE CARMEL - WATCH
Still under development, many countries are expressing interest in the autonomous AFV.

BY ANNA AHRONHEIM

AUGUST 4, 2019 19:45

As part of the IDF’s continued efforts to retain a qualitative military edge over its enemies, the Defense Ministry unveiled on Sunday three new prototypes for the Carmel advanced armored fighting vehicle (AFV) which officers say will revolutionize the battlefield.

The Carmel AFV (called Carmel for a Hebrew acronym for Advanced Ground Combat Vehicle), is under development by the Defense Ministry’s Administration for the Development of Weapons and Technological Infrastructure (MAFAT) and the Defense Ministry’s Merkava Tank Administration, and will constitute a quantum leap in the field of armored vehicles.

“We have completed a long process today, in which, together with the Armored Corps and the Ground Forces, we have characterized our operational needs in the future battlefield,” said Brig.-Gen. Guy Hasson, chief Armored Corps officer.

Testing IDF's new Carmel (Credit: Ministry of Defense Spokesperson's Unit)

Launched three years ago as a multi-year plan, the Carmel is expected to be at the forefront of the military’s new combat concept which is based on autonomous and automatic maneuvering capabilities, artificial intelligence, hybrid propulsion and more.

Designed to play a lead role on the future battlefield, the combat vehicle takes artificial intelligence capabilities that enable full situational awareness and fast responses to enemy threats while drastically reducing the workload of the crew.

With numerous sensors and cameras, the Carmel allows the crew to order autonomous actions such as searching for several enemy targets simultaneously and then prioritizing the targets and off-road driving.
Drawing lessons from 2014’s Operation Protective Edge, where IDF soldiers fought in narrow streets and alleys in the Gaza Strip, the 35-ton, tracked AVF is designed to be simple to operate, relatively inexpensive, agile and lethal with firepower designed for close and urban combat.

Operated by a two-man crew, the AFV is almost completely autonomous and is highly invisible to enemy radar. The platform has breakthrough technologies, including modular transparent armor, next-generation cooperative active protection, an IED alert and neutralization system and a hybrid engine.

It is also fitted with tactical drones which can help with surveillance and reconnaissance as well as attack capabilities. The Carmel will also include an entirely new generation of active protection and will allow the two-man crew to operate in closed hatches while still seeing the entire battlefield.

But the Carmel is not a tank which is not very maneuverable in urban environments, Hasson said.

“It’s something totally different than a tank, it’s a platform that is totally new,” he told reporters at a live demonstration of the platform in northern Israel.

“Although the nature of war will not change, the soldier on the ground will face a great deal of uncertainty and will have to change,” Hasson said. “For the Armored Corps this a tremendous opportunity to try to imagine how we will see ourselves in the next decade, and maybe in the next two decades.”

WHILE MAFAT expects the development and demonstration testing of the Carmel to extend over the coming decade or more, the platform prototypes shown to reporters on Sunday included one from Rafael, one from IAI and one from Elbit – Israel’s three major defense companies.

Meir Shabtai, general manager of robotics and autonomous systems at IAI told The Jerusalem Post that the Carmel is “the next generation of combat vehicles” that can maneuver by itself and can detect and engage targets at long distances.

“The amount of information that a human can understand is limited and so the platform provides the operator only what he needs,” he said, explaining that the vehicle can take the decision to fire at targets and “allow the operator to deal with what he needs to focus on.”

According to the Defense Ministry, each company was asked to develop their platform from a technology-based concept that would transform existing and future platforms into an advanced vehicle with a cockpit – much like that of a fighter jet – where most of the activities are carried out autonomously (travel, threat detection, target acquisition, as well as defensive and offensive maneuvers).

The prototype developed by Elbit Systems has the crew wearing the IronVision Helmet Mounted Display, which is based on technology developed for the F-35 stealth fighter jet. With three large screens surrounding the soldier, wearing the helmet allows him to see outside the vehicle to acquire targets and operate the AFV under closed hatches, and further enhances crew survivability.

Rafael, meanwhile, also demonstrated a vehicle with a closed hatch and a breakthrough panoramic design, giving the crew a 360-degree situational awareness and a true and up-to-date snapshot of what is going on outside on the battlefield. In addition to the large panoramic screen, the crew operates a personal touchscreen with interfacing ability, dividing up the work of autonomous mission planning, driving and simultaneous operation of all vehicle weapon systems, all of which based on combat artificial intelligence capabilities and are capable of detecting and neutralizing a large number of targets simultaneously.

IAI presented a platform which combines a panoramic display, individual control screens and a control stick similar to the Xbox gaming console’s joystick. The autonomous capabilities in IAI’s combat vehicle are operated by a central, autonomous system that integrates the various components of the platform and helps the human operator in processing information and focusing on critical threats in order to make effective decisions.

“We are preparing for a revolutionary perception of land maneuvering,” said Brig.-Gen. Yaniv Rotem, head of research and development at MAFAT.

“We are one of the world leaders in this field and we are heading for a new era,” Rotem said, adding that many armies around the world, including the US Army, are interested in the platform and will be coming to see demonstrations of it over the course of the coming days.

With foreign armies interested in a platform that is still under development, “this vehicle has a lot of potential for the future,” Rotem said.

https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/I...ored-fighting-vehicle-The-Carmel-watch-597617

IAI​

 

[DavidSling]

RAFAEL
​

 

[DavidSling]

ELBIT​

http://sturgeonshouse.ipbhost.com/topic/1499-israeli-afvs/page/42/#comments

 

[DavidSling]

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

Looks like an IFV or AFV to me more than a tank but ok. Their armor is the best in the whole world no doubt about it.