Israel has lost both morally, politically and militarily in its war against Gaza

[Falcon29]

Hamas calculated this to be the case when it made the decision to use civilian areas as launching pads. It succeeded on this basis.

STOP being foolish, you know nothing. Israel didn't have enough military targets. There are no visible and apparent military targets. So they resorted to assigning civilian homes of military members as targets. But, those civilian homes have no military value according to international law. Most of the air strikes were against civilian homes because Israel had no targets. Many of those civilians were not warned, and homes around them were destroyed as well causing further civilian casualties. There is a report on this:

Israel/Palestine: Unlawful Israeli Airstrikes Kill Civilians | Human Rights Watch

(Gaza) – Israeli air attacks in Gaza investigated by Human Rights Watch have been targeting apparent civilian structures and killing civilians in violation of the laws of war. Israel should end unlawful attacks that do not target military objectives and may be intended as collective punishment or broadly to destroy civilian property. Deliberate or reckless attacks violating the laws of war are war crimes, Human Rights Watch said.

Israeli attacks in Gaza since July 7, 2014, which Israeli officials said delivered more than 500 tons of explosives in missiles, aerial bombs, and artillery fire, killed at least 178 people and wounded 1,361 as of July 14, including 635 women and children, according to the United Nations. Preliminary UN reports identified 138 people, about 77 percent of those killed, as civilians, including 36 children, and found that the attacks had destroyed 1,255 homes, displacing at least 7,500 people.

“Israel’s rhetoric is all about precision attacks but attacks with no military target and many civilian deaths can hardly be considered precise,” said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director at Human Rights Watch. “Recent documented cases in Gaza sadly fit Israel’s long record of unlawful airstrikes with high civilian casualties.”

On July 11, an Israeli attack on the Fun Time Beach café near the city of Khan Yunis killed nine civilians, including two 15-year-old children, and wounded three, including a 13-year-old boy. An Israeli military spokesman said the attack was “targeting a terrorist” but presented no evidence that any of those at the café, who had gathered to watch a World Cup match, were participating in military operations, or that the killing of one alleged “terrorist” in a crowded café would justify the expected civilian casualties.

In another July 11 attack, an Israeli missile struck a vehicle in the Bureij refugee camp, killing the two municipal workers inside. The men were driving home in a marked municipal vehicle after clearing rubble from a road damaged in an airstrike. Their relatives said that neither man was affiliated with an armed group, and that the driver had followed the same daily routine in the same vehicle every day since July 7. The explosion blew the roof off the vehicle and partly disemboweled a 9-year-old girl and wounded her sister, 8, who were sitting in front of their home nearby. Human Rights Watch found no evidence of a military objective in the vehicle or in the area at the time.

An Israeli airstrike on July 10 on the family home of Mohammed al-Hajj, a tailor, in the densely crowded Khan Yunis refugee camp killed seven civilian family members, including two children, and wounded more than twenty civilians. An eighth fatality, al-Hajj’s 20-year-old son, was a low-ranking member of the Qassam Brigades, the armed wing of Hamas, residents told Human Rights Watch. The Israeli military said the attack was being investigated. Even if the son was the intended target, the nature of the attack appears indiscriminate and would in any case be disproportionate.

“The presence of a single, low-level fighter would hardly justify the appalling obliteration of an entire family,” Whitson said. “Israel would never accept an argument that any Israeli home of an Israel Defense Force member would be a valid military target.”

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[VCheng]

STOP being foolish, you know nothing. Israel didn't have enough military targets. There are no visible and apparent military targets. So they resorted to assigning civilian homes of military members as targets. But, those civilian homes have no military value according to international law. Most of the air strikes were against civilian homes because Israel had no targets. Many of those civilians were not warned, and homes around them were destroyed as well causing further civilian casualties. There is a report on this:

But surely you can see the cunning employed by the Hamas leadership. They know they are at an extreme military disadvantage, so they cleverly used their limited resources to inflict such large public relations damage on its sworn enemies reputation by encouraging civilian casualties on its own side. Pretty crafty.

 

[Falcon29]

But surely you can see the cunning employed by the Hamas leadership. They know they are at an extreme military disadvantage, so they cleverly used their limited resources to inflict such large public relations damage on its sworn enemies reputation by encouraging civilian casualties on its own side. Pretty crafty.

You're employing meaningless rhetoric. I am responding to your meaningless assertions with factual evidence by human rights organizations documenting the pattern of civilian casualties in Gaza. It shows that civilians are being exclusively targeted by Israel. No question about it.

 

[VCheng]

You're employing meaningless rhetoric. I am responding to your meaningless assertions with factual evidence by human rights organizations documenting the pattern of civilian casualties in Gaza. It shows that civilians are being exclusively targeted by Israel. No question about it.

Of course Israel is causing the casualties, no doubt about it, and it is paying the price in adverse public opinion. There is also no doubt that Hamas is one who is using these civilian casualties to its military advantage as part of its strategy to fight a war against a stronger opponent. No question about that either.

 

[Falcon29]

Of course Israel is causing the casualties, no doubt about it, and it is paying the price in adverse public opinion. There is also no doubt that Hamas is one who is using these civilian casualties to its military advantage as part of its strategy to fight a war against a stronger opponent. No question about that either.

The discussion here isn't about military strategy. You don't know anything about military strategy. The report states Israel is targeting civilian families by classifying homes as pre-planned targets. Not because of any combat there, not because of 'collateral damage' Try to comprehend what that means. Hence Israel not Hamas is responsible for any massive civilian casualties.

In Gaza, 11 members of a Palestinian family are killed in a single strike - The Washington Post
PHOTOS: A Gaza funeral for 26 members of one family | +972 Magazine
In just one example of the ongoing Israeli tactic of targeting civilian homes, 26 members of the Abu Jame’ family, including 18 children, were killed in a single strike.
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[hussain0216]

The jews underestimated the consequences and thought that with the Egyptians, Jordanians etc supporting them they could break the will of Hamas

They tried the usual trick kill a few hundred, let Hamas fire a few rockets to deplete its arsenal that let the *** licker Egyptians broker a peace plan that will maintain the status quo ie Gaza under siege and a few more years of peace for Israel whilst keeping Gaza under blockade

Hamas however had other idea's, First they were regularily able to hit deep into israel including Tel Aviv the fact that the rockets were useless didnt matter, what mattered was israels capital and economic heartland was effected increasing a sense of insecurity for both israeli's and foreign visitors and investors

Israel responded to this by increasing its bombardment of Gaza, but the increased death toll destroyed israels image across the world, its supporters tried to buy it time but the job had to be done quick

Hamas is a resistance organisation and it did its job,, to resist

It kept firing rockets till the end, managed to kill 64 israeli soldiers including a decent kidnap attempt (i believe they have the body still of the jew)




In the end israel destroyed its image more then it already is, increased anti-semitism across the world, reinvigorated the boycott campaign, bought out alot of people around the world muslim and non in condemning israel and heaped pressure on israels supporters






If Hamas manages to gain some concessions whilst still standing then israel's war was a utter waste of time


in the meantime we should keep the pressure around the world on the jews and israel

 

[Falcon29]

The jews underestimated the consequences and thought that with the Egyptians, Jordanians etc supporting them they could break the will of Hamas

They tried the usual trick kill a few hundred, let Hamas fire a few rockets to deplete its arsenal that let the *** licker Egyptians broker a peace plan that will maintain the status quo ie Gaza under siege and a few more years of peace for Israel whilst keeping Gaza under blockade

Hamas however had other idea's, First they were regularily able to hit deep into israel including Tel Aviv the fact that the rockets were useless didnt matter, what mattered was israels capital and economic heartland was effected increasing a sense of insecurity for both israeli's and foreign visitors and investors

Israel responded to this by increasing its bombardment of Gaza, but the increased death toll destroyed israels image across the world, its supporters tried to buy it time but the job had to be done quick

Hamas is a resistance organisation and it did its job,, to resist

It kept firing rockets till the end, managed to kill 64 israeli soldiers including a decent kidnap attempt (i believe they have the body still of the jew)




In the end israel destroyed its image more then it already is, increased anti-semitism across the world, reinvigorated the boycott campaign, bought out alot of people around the world muslim and non in condemning israel and heaped pressure on israels supporters






If Hamas manages to gain some concessions whilst still standing then israel's war was a utter waste of time


in the meantime we should keep the pressure around the world on the jews and israel

They did do damage, but Israel doesn't leak it based on what suits them. They don't want the Palestinians to know they're inflicting damage and tell them that they're weapons are useless. But, when it suits them in front of the world they act all innocent and claim there is a massive threat.

How much has Israel’s war against Hamas cost? | The Times of Israel

Estimates put the price of the month-long campaign as high as $3.6 billion

In addition, the government already has received 2,500 claims for property damage from the projectiles and estimates a total payout of $14.6 million. Compensation for lost wages and property damage will come from a $1.5 billion fund taken from taxes on real estate transactions.

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Of course that isn't much damage still.

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The costs are largely due to the amount of explosives Israel used on Gaza. It choose to be barbaric and flatten whole suburbs. The biggest cost is now there is real international consensus that the siege must be lifted and a long term truce must take hold.

People saw how barbaric Israel is by killing nearly 2,000 Palestinians, over 1,500 confirmed civilians besides the others they couldn't identify. Which is a number close to a hundred. They don't want this to happen again.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

As far as I can see, the war has not changed anything.

CASUALTIES
Israel has killed and wounded 1000s of Palestinians and destroyed houses and infrastructure.
Palestinians have killed a few handfuls of IDF soldiers.

SUCCESSES AND FAILURES
Most if not all Hamas "surprises" like naval commandos, long distance rockets and tunnels has been utter failure.
Advanced ATGM vs Trophy situation unclear to me. Obviously M113 thin aluminium armour did not cut it...
IEDs in "civilian" buildings killed a number of Israelis, but also gave legality to IDF blowing suspected buildings
to smithereens.
UN criticizes Palestinians for war crimes, indiscriminate rockets vs Israeli population centers.
Palestinians are also criticized by UN for hiding rockets in UN buildings.
Very noticeable lack of political support from Arab countries.

IDF did not overrun Hamas and Gaza. This was argued for by some Israeli right-wingers, but overruled by Bibi.
If it had been easy, they would have done it.
Many tunnels destroyed, but it would not be a surprise if there were a few tunnels undetected.
Extremely fragile ceasefire, but Israeli and Palestinians At least get some relief.
Some countries are reviewing their arms deal with Israel. US criticism of Israel.

Locally, I see that newspapers are following the crisis, but after Hamas refused the Egyptian initiative,
there has only been a few small demonstrations, mostly by Palestinians and little debate on television.
No political party has announced any change in policy vs Israel or Palestinians.

Next Time: Avoid holiday time...

WAR CRIMES
HRW condemn both sides as war criminals.
Palestinian war crimes are obvious.
Israel considered HRW to be biased, and has not cooperated in investigations.

Palestinians has not signed the ICC treaties, so that venue is closed.
If somone proposes a resolution vs Israel in the UNSC not mentioning Palestinian war crimes
it is likely to be vetoed by the US.

FUTURE
Anyone else see that the next year will look different than what followed the two previous showdowns?

 

[T-Rex]

As far as I can see, the war has not changed anything.

You're damn right about it, Hamas is still there, only stronger than they used to be!

WAR CRIMES
HRW condemn both sides as war criminals.
Palestinian war crimes are obvious.
Israel considered HRW to be biased, and has not cooperated in investigations.

Fighting against occupation cannot be war crime but committing genocide for continuing occupation is a war crime. Of course, like Hitler, zionazis have different definition of war crime.

 

[500]

Israel has lost both morally, politically and militarily in its war against Gaza

Israel pulled out of Gaza unilaterally under the strong resistance of its people but has since then imposed an unjust siege on it.

Israel pulled out in 2005, the siege was imposed in 2007, because of escalated rocket attacks and tunnels. Israel continued supplying all the humanitarian needs.

The legality of Israeli siege was confirmed by the UN:

82. The fundamental principle of the freedom of navigation on the high seas is subject to only certain limited exceptions under international law. Israel faces a real threat to its security from militant groups in Gaza. The naval blockade was imposed as a legitimate security measure in order to prevent weapons from entering Gaza by sea and its implementation complied with the requirements of international law.

http://www.un.org/News/dh/infocus/middle_east/Gaza_Flotilla_Panel_Report.pdf

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

You're damn right about it, Hamas is still there, only stronger than they used to be!

Fighting against occupation cannot be war crime but committing genocide for continuing occupation is a war crime. Of course, like Hitler, zionazis have different definition of war crime.

The strength of Hamas is depending on what kind of support they have from the locals.
That can only be determined by new elections.
Personally, I would not vote for someone which shows such disregard for the welfare of citizens.
Why would any Palestinian be different?

Churchill was voted out right after winning WW2...

You are obviously using some homebrew definition of war crimes which has no relevance and
the Israelis are using the Geneva Conventions.
The Geneva Convention are in places quite unclear, and are using terms where there is
no real agreement on the meaning.

Examples of this is the definition of what is the military target, and what is a disproportionate response.

In this conflict, Israelis are testing the boundaries, but it is unlikely that anyone will be
sentenced to any form of punishment if it takes a long discussion among top experts in civil rights
to determine what is right or wrong.

Such expertise cannot be expected from a soldier in the field.

 

[idune]

Saudi Arabia pledged to rebuild Gaza in a statement released yesterday by the FM HRH Prince Saud Al-Faisla.

After coordinating with Israel, house of Saud will help "rebuild Gaza"? That is another cruel joke from house of saud. Here comes @Chak Bamu with his abuse to defend house of saud.

 

[Zarvan]

Former US State Secretary Henry Kissinger once said: "If a strong country does not win its war against a weaker country, it will be a loser. If the weaker county is not defeated in this war it will be the winner."

If we apply what Kissinger has said on the Gaza war, we will definitely find out that Gaza, which is not a country or a state, is the real winner. Gaza is a piece of land which is about 30 kilometers long and 12 kilometers wide. In some areas, its width tapers to six kilometers. It is inhabited by about two million people, making it among the densely populated places in the world.

Gaza has been under Israel's air-land-and-sea blockage for about eight years now. Israel has been occupying the Strip since its six-day war against three Arab countries — Egypt, Syria and Jordan — in 1967.

During this brief war, Israel has occupied the Syrian Golan Heights, the West Bank, which was under Jordan's administration, and the Egyptian Sinai desert. Until this war, Gaza was under Egypt's administration.

Following the peaceful negotiations between Israel and Egypt in the late 1970s, Egypt has regained sovereignty over the Sinai desert. Gaza remained under Israel's occupation.

Israel pulled out of Gaza unilaterally under the strong resistance of its people but has since then imposed an unjust siege on it.

Whoever dared to break the blockade or provide relief assistance to the people of Gaza, would be fired upon by the Israeli army. This is exactly what happened to the Turkish freighter MV Mavi Marmara, which Israel had attacked in the international waters of the Mediterranean Sea killing nine passengers. The freighter was part of a six-ship "freedom" flotilla which was to deliver relief goods to Gaza on May 31, 2010.

The incident soured relations between Turkey and Israel. Turkey refused to normalize relations with Israel and put three conditions for this: a formal apology by Israel, compensation to the families of the victims and lifting of the blockade against Gaza.

Israel apologized for the incident but refused to pay compensations or lift the blockade against Gaza.

As I have said earlier, Gaza is neither a country nor a state. It thus can not be compared with Israel which has one of the most modern weaponry and the strongest armies in the world. It has far advanced military aircraft and tanks.

Israel launched its current attack against Gaza which is still under the suffocating siege. Young Palestinians in Gaza who were fed up by the blockade and were yearning for freedom, decided to fight back. They did this heroically.

Israel has launched war after war against Gaza. It killed many of the Palestinian leaders and subjected the Strip to measures that make Palestinian children hungry. It has used excessive force in its war against Gaza to coerce its people who bravely stood fast.

Israel's aggression against Gaza was tantamount to war crimes and violations of all human rights. These crimes were committed by the army, which Israel always says is indefatigable.

The Israeli army is considered the fifth strongest in the world, considering its number of soldiers, armament and military training. Just imagine the small and helpless Gaza fighting this army for more than a month!

Israel receives military and economic aide in billions of dollar from the West, especially the United States which has promised to ensure Israel's military supremacy over all Arab countries put together.

The US is also providing blind political and diplomatic support to the Zionist state. America has always vetoed UN Security Council's resolutions that condemn Israel for its atrocities and inhuman practices against the Palestinian people.

Israel, therefore, has been safe from any condemnation by the world body, thanks to the blind American support. It is free to break international laws and breach international conventions that protect the people under its occupation. There is no more occupations, except in Palestine where the ugly racist Israeli occupation remains.

Israel has launched its latest war against Gaza for a variety of reasons. These include its attempts to foil Palestinian national reconciliation, which was recently concluded between Hamas in Gaza and the Palestine Authority in the West Bank.

This reconciliation has culminated in the formation of a national unity government.

Israel does not really want peace. It is using negotiations as a pretext to gain time in order to build more Jewish settlements in the occupied territories. Gaza was strongly against these negotiations which it said were futile and would lead to nowhere.

Israel wanted to silence Gaza and crush its resistance and depended on its sheer military might. It used F-16 fighter planes, missiles tanks in a barbaric manner to kill civilians and destroy buildings over their heads.

Israel has targeted mosques, hospitals and schools. It attacked a special school of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine (UNRWA) and killed many Palestinian women and children who took refuge in the school.

Israel has also targeted orphanages and the homes of the disabled, leveling them to the ground. It attacked ambulances carrying the dead and the injured and shelled children who were playing on the seashore.

This gave Gaza no other choice but to fight back. Using outmoded conventional weapons, the freedom fighters put on a strong fight and killed a number of Israeli soldiers. Their simple missiles reached a number of Israeli towns, forcing their people to take shelter. For the first time in its recent history, Israel was forced to suspend its international flights.

Israel had incurred huge losses in human lives but would not reveal them. However, observers believe that Israel's losses in this war were immense.

Israel has destroyed thousands of houses as well as water and power stations. Gaza has stood fast, despite the odds. It did not surrender.

Israel has lost both morally, politically and militarily in its war against Gaza. The small and defenseless Gaza has thus won its war against Israel's army with all its might. It proved that what Kissinger had said was right.

Winner and loser in Gaza war | Opinion | Saudi Gazette

Israel its weakening day by day problem is most leaders are pets off west and born cowards the moment they decide Israel can defeated most brutally within hours

 

[Falcon29]

As far as I can see, the war has not changed anything.

It will change the situation.

CASUALTIES
Israel has killed and wounded 1000s of Palestinians and destroyed houses and infrastructure.
Palestinians have killed a few handfuls of IDF soldiers.

Gaza death toll hits 1,980 as dozens succumb to war wounds | Maan News Agency

1,480 at least have been confirmed to be civilians.

SUCCESSES AND FAILURES
Most if not all Hamas "surprises" like naval commandos, long distance rockets and tunnels has been utter failure.

Rockets managed to hurt tourism plus get flights to Ben Gurion suspended. You must have missed two successful operations:
Two soldiers killed by Hamas infiltrators Saturday morning | The Times of Israel

Second one killed 5:
Hamas tunnel raid kills 5 soldiers in southern Israel | The Times of Israel

Advanced ATGM vs Trophy situation unclear to me. Obviously M113 thin aluminium armour did not cut it...

There is no advanced ATGM in Gaza, most are twenty years old at least.

IEDs in "civilian" buildings killed a number of Israelis, but also gave legality to IDF blowing suspected buildings
to smithereens.

No such thing as any booby traps in civilian buildings. Any buildings where IDF were killed was during Israeli forces occupying the building and Hamas later demolishing it. There are videos of this and nothing to do with any civilian buildings.

IDF did not overrun Hamas and Gaza. This was argued for by some Israeli right-wingers, but overruled by Bibi.
If it had been easy, they would have done it.

Israel's objectives were never regime change. Israel's objective in the beginning was what they called 'restoring deterrence'. They failed in doing so and so they kept dumbing down their objectives over time.

If they could go into Gaza successfully they would even if it meant murdering tens of thousands of civilians. Problem was the military apparatus was lying to the political branch. Israel had no clear intelligence on Hamas's capabilities on the ground.

Israel succeeded in destroying civilian infrastructure and traumatizing civilians. Their siege also targets civilians efficiently.

Some countries are reviewing their arms deal with Israel. US criticism of Israel.

Israel got criticism all over the world. Especially in public opinion which is most important.

Locally, I see that newspapers are following the crisis, but after Hamas refused the Egyptian initiative

That was actually Israel:
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Israel rejects Egypt's proposals for long-term cease-fire in Gaza | JPost | Israel News

The Israeli government on Saturday rejected Egypt's bridging proposals for a long-term cease-fire in the Gaza Strip.

Egyptian mediators presented their proposals over the weekend to Palestinian officials as well as to Israeli negotiators currently in Cairo.

Diplomatic sources in Jerusalem told Maariv Hashavua late Saturday that the decision to turn down the Egyptian offer was made after consultations between Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon.

...............

Israel considered HRW to be biased, and has not cooperated in investigations.

Nobody considers HRW to be biased. Israel is alone in that field. Israel has everything to lose to not cooperate with UN panel. US veto has nothing to do with the inquiry.

FUTURE
Anyone else see that the next year will look different than what followed the two previous showdowns?

There will be no next year. Those who prefer so are Jewish extremist terrorists. The world doesn't want that. The world wants a seaport in Gaza and the siege lifted plus a long term truce.

 

[Chak Bamu]

After coordinating with Israel, house of Saud will help "rebuild Gaza"? That is another cruel joke from house of saud. Here comes @Chak Bamu with his abuse to defend house of saud.

@WebMaster