Islam and science: The road to renewal - ECONOMIST

[gambit]

What it shows is that the supposed apathy towards science and modernity are not mandated by Islam, but are artificial constructs of certain community/political leaders.

And who has the power to consider the Shias 'heretics'? Certain community/political leaders. Of the past, of course. But how enduring is that decision today?

Pakistan market bomb kills scores | World news | The Observer

A bomb attack on a crowded grocery market in a Shia-dominated neighbourhood in Pakistan has left at least 65 people dead and more than 180 wounded.

Very enduring, it appears.

You object to the implication that there is a causal relationship between Islam and the decay of science in the Islamic world.

Objection noted.

But is there anything in Islam that declared the Shia sect to be 'heretics'? If not, then you have to agree that the declaration of Shias to be 'heretics' is one such artificial constructs, no? And such an artificial construct has proven to be quite enduring, murderously so, spanning over one thousand years.

So...How enduring will it be of the idea that the Quran is a never ending fountain of scientific knowledge? In this case, no specific community/political leadership is propagating this nonsense but the Muslims themselves.

As long as this meme continue to exist and propagate, your objection will be considered irrelevant by the non-Muslims. For the non-Muslims, we will not care if there is a concrete causal relationship between Islam and the decay of science in the Islamic countries. For us, if there is something as fallacious as the Quran is THE source of all scientific knowledge and there are enough Muslims who believe in it, our subjective interpretation that there is such a causal link will be enough.

 

[Mosamania]

@Developereo and you quoted me here because.....


@Developereo and I am here as a Muslim scientist who is more than happy to answer questions regarding biology IF anyone CAN SWALLOW molecular level explanation!

Okay then, the sodium ions traveling along the axon initiating the -60mv in the Na+\K+ATPase pump, I have been having trouble keeping the electrical signal from voiding down the fibers to tech the amplifier. I tried voided fiber but to no avail...... Okay I reall don't have any questions as I already know everything there is to know regarding this thing just wanted to talk jargin a little.

But really the part where we had to turn a -60mv chemical conduction electric impulse into a viable electrical signal was really tough. What are you working on currently?

 

[Developereo]

And who has the power to consider the Shias 'heretics'? Certain community/political leaders. Of the past, of course. But how enduring is that decision today?

An apt analogy.

The claim that Shias are heretics has no basis within Islam or the Quran; it is fabricated and promulgated by unscrupulous people to further their (worldly) agenda.

Similarly, the claim that the Quran is the font of scientific knowledge has no basis in Islam or the Quran. To be more precise, it is a matter of interpretation. People who want to believe so manage to "decipher" numerical codes and whatever (like Bible Codes) to justify their conclusions.

The issue, like I mentioned, is that Islam is not monolithic and there are any number of sects, each with their own interpretation, so any broad statement about "Islam" becomes meaningless.

The tussle within the Muslim world is between the various interpretations of Islam, each being pushed by various political elite again for the own worldly agenda. You are right that, if a significant majority of Muslims ended up buying that particular interpretation of Islam and spent all their time looking for scientific truths in the Quran, then it would be correct to say that the majority interpretation of Islam is detrimental to scientific progress.

It still wouldn't change the fact that the various minority sects would continue to do science the old fashioned way.

P.S. In fact, if you read my and others' posts, we fully agree that the sorry scientific state of Muslim societies is partly because such interpretations have been favored by the ruling elite. This is an ongoing challenge for the Muslim world to find better leadership, and this struggle is mirrored in non-Muslim countries also.

 

[gambit]

This is an ongoing challenge for the Muslim world to find better leadership,...

Saddam Hussein may have been indoctrinated in Syria, but he was a son of Iraq. We did not hire a Frenchman to be the 43rd President of the United States of America. We hired a Texan named George W. Bush. Prime Minister Shinzo Abe was not borned in Korea but in Nagato, Yamaguchi, of Japan.

My point is that your leaders came from you, not from outsiders. So as long as you have people who believes the Quran to be that never ending fountain of scientific knowledge and that emulating Western scientific thoughts tantamount to apostasy, from that intellectual pool comes your leaders.

Good luck in facing your challenge. You will need it for certainly Allah is not going to help.

 

[FaujHistorian]

An apt analogy.

The claim that Shias are heretics has no basis within Islam or the Quran; it is fabricated and promulgated by unscrupulous people to further their (worldly) agenda..

So true.

Unfortunately the business of declaring the members of other sects as "heretics" is common among all groups large or small.

How could we ignore the Sunni holocaust in Iran by certain king.

As a result of that holocaust, Sunnis only remain a tiny minority, and most of the Iranians were forced to convert to Shia-ism.

My God! that level of barbarity haven't been seen in the reign of many other kings and emperors or so called Khalifas where whole scale slaughter and rape and murder resulted in a total transformation of society from one sect to the other.

peace


p.s. this is why it is utmost important for Pakistanis to let go of this pseudo-world called Islamic world of TODAY. We'll not find anything there except barbarity, cruelty, and arrogance coupled with ignorance.

Okay then, the sodium ions traveling along the axon initiating the -60mv in the Na+\K+ATPase pump, I have been having trouble keeping the electrical signal from voiding down the fibers to tech the amplifier. I tried voided fiber but to no avail...... Okay I reall don't have any questions as I already know everything there is to know regarding this thing just wanted to talk jargin a little.

But really the part where we had to turn a -60mv chemical conduction electric impulse into a viable electrical signal was really tough. What are you working on currently?

Maso,

Clever man! Trying to get your dissertation done through Talon?


peace

 

[Cloakedvessel]

Being a scientist I feel obligued to laugh at what you lot have written to the point someone even pointed out Steve Paulson who mind you has a MASTERS in JOURNALISM AND MASS COMMUNICATION!!!!

How does attacking someone on his credentials refutes the contents of the article? Point out the parts where you disagree. Dispute the given facts. Counter the arguments, if you have a different opinion. But don't attack the messenger for doing his job as a journalist.

Not sure HOW scientific that is...

The issue here is not if journalism meets the scientific criteria to be considered as science, but if there is a field of tension between Islam and science. And given the underachievement in science by Muslims, the cited scientists sound more than plausible in their observations.

IF he is accredited then why the heck am I doing research in Science? I might as well write an article to a famous publisher and get people like you to quote me!!

What would you have told the reporter about the subject at hand?

@Mosamania

I was just about what they wrote though in the beginning I WAS

Apparently people doing research in science - you and me - know LESS than these lot who are tearing each other apart OVER ASSUMPTIONS, MISCONCEPTIONS, TWISTED READING AND NOT TO MENTION EVOLUTIONALISTS

What's wrong with evolutionists?

 

[somebozo]

Sir it was always Shariah and they were nothing before HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW not made progress in science they were busy in drinking and burying girls and fighting with each other all the time and all other kind of evils after HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW they started focusing on development of education of all kinds

are you a f_cking idiot for real? No wonder madarassah education takes you backwards!

Islam actually hindered the spread of science and technology in Persia.
Science in Persia

History of science

Science in Persia evolved in two main phases separated by the arrival and widespread adoption of Islam in the region.
References to scientific subjects such as natural science and mathematics occur in books written in the Pahlavi languages.
[edit]Ancient technology in Persia
The Qanat (a water management system used for irrigation) originated in pre-Achaemenid Persia. The oldest and largest known qanat is in the Iranian city of Gonabad which, after 2,700 years, still provides drinking and agricultural water to nearly 40,000 people.


Persian philosophers and inventors may have created the first batteries (sometimes known as the Baghdad Battery) in the Parthian or Sassanid eras. Some have suggested that the batteries may have been used medicinally. Other scientists believe the batteries were used for electroplating—transferring a thin layer of metal to another metal surface—a technique still used today and the focus of a common classroom experiment.[6]
Windwheels were developed by the Babylonians ca. 1700 BC to pump water for irrigation. In the 7th century, Persian engineers in Greater Iran developed a more advanced wind-power machine, the windmill, building upon the basic model developed by the Babylonians.[7][8]

Persia Cradle of Science, Technology

 

[gubbi]

[MENTION=18011]more than happy to answer questions regarding biology IF anyone CAN SWALLOW molecular level explanation!

What are your areas of interests?

 

[Zarvan]

are you a f_cking idiot for real? No wonder madarassah education takes you backwards!

Islam actually hindered the spread of science and technology in Persia.
Science in Persia

History of science

Science in Persia evolved in two main phases separated by the arrival and widespread adoption of Islam in the region.
References to scientific subjects such as natural science and mathematics occur in books written in the Pahlavi languages.
[edit]Ancient technology in Persia
The Qanat (a water management system used for irrigation) originated in pre-Achaemenid Persia. The oldest and largest known qanat is in the Iranian city of Gonabad which, after 2,700 years, still provides drinking and agricultural water to nearly 40,000 people.


Persian philosophers and inventors may have created the first batteries (sometimes known as the Baghdad Battery) in the Parthian or Sassanid eras. Some have suggested that the batteries may have been used medicinally. Other scientists believe the batteries were used for electroplating—transferring a thin layer of metal to another metal surface—a technique still used today and the focus of a common classroom experiment.[6]
Windwheels were developed by the Babylonians ca. 1700 BC to pump water for irrigation. In the 7th century, Persian engineers in Greater Iran developed a more advanced wind-power machine, the windmill, building upon the basic model developed by the Babylonians.[7][8]

Persia Cradle of Science, Technology

Mr I have never been to Madrassa and your language tells your reality Sir and Persia was not center of education before Islam Sir the were thousand of years back but many hundreds of year back from Islam they were nothing much in education sector

 

[somebozo]

Mr I have never been to Madrassa and your language tells your reality Sir and Persia was not center of education before Islam Sir the were thousand of years back but many hundreds of year back from Islam they were nothing much in education sector

Yes and the Bedouin Arabs were flying to space on Buraq long before Persian even learned to use a spoon?
I have run out of facepalms for the idiocy expressed on this forum.
Your utter ignorance of civilization and history explains the identity crisis Pakistan is going through today.

 

[gambit]

I can remember when I started learning about Islam and Muslims, I used to peruse bismikaallahuma. Was very amusing to read that geocentrism is alive and well among the Muslims. The flatearthers have their counterparts.

Does the earth spin?

There are more active non-Muslims on this forum.. so obviously you'll get more votes for the whizzing earth burning though the universe and revolving at remarkable speed around the sun.

For proof that the earth is fixed and that the everything else revolves around it, see this thread:

Sun and Moon Orbit around Fixed Earth

You as a Christian, and according to the Bible, you should be beliving that the earth is flat and still and it's the sun and moon that orbit it. But looks like you are only a counterfeit Christian (more like an anti-Christ).

I remember 'Light-of-Mustafa' and 'PrinceZed'. They were respected members and believers of Quran mandated geocentrism. Both claimed to have advanced degrees from Britain's top universities. Light-of-Mustafa also claimed to have developed a 'Theory of Universal Rotation' based upon a stationary Earth. But he never delivered.

And here is another gem...

http://forum.bismikaallahuma.org/showthread.php?t=2439&page=2

Of course it does. In reality, both geocentric and heliocentric models of the universe are CORRECT from a relative point of view. If you assume that you are observing the universe from the earth's point of view, then the planets would behave according to the geocentric model. If you assume that you are observing the universe from the sun's point of view, then the planets would behave according to the heliocentric model. The issue is only about relativism.

There is no conclusive evidence that the sun is the center of the solar system and the planets go around it. And I would rather believe a Being that knows all rather than some migit scientist giving me a theory on his assumptions and incomplete observations.

It was really amazing.

 

[King Solomon]

I don't think Islam itself has much to do with the backwardness in the Islamic world as far as science is concerned. I think these may be the factors:

1. It is the political ideology of Islamism or incorporating Islam and Sharia as the law of the land which is responsible for much of the backwardness of Islamic world. The same was the case with Europe when Christianity was adopted as a law of the land. If Israel adopted Mosaic law as the law of the land instead of secular law, it would be just as backward as some muslim countries. Ancient laws and political frameworks were suitable for their time, not the 21st century.

2. The belief that "Quran and Hadith is enough. We don't need anything else" which is rampant across religious Islamic circles. It is the same reason why Umar burned the Alexandria library, using the books as a fuel for bathhouses.

3. During the rule of Abbasids, minorities were relatively emancipated. Non muslims and persian scientists were collaborating with muslims. It was a relatively secular rule. And it is during the Abbasids that science flourished. This indicates that it is not Islam which is the problem, but Islamism.

4. An "us vs. them" attitude and victim mentality in the Islamic world. Non muslims are seen as conspirating to destroy Islam. Again, this is rooted in the political application of Islam.

5. A belief that the life in the world is just fantasy and it is the life afterwards (hereafter) that really matters. This belief leads to Muslims remaining content with their present status and not striving for improvement. Although, to my understanding, Quran is the only religious scripture which places much importance in worldly gains/achievements.

 

[gubbi]

Okay then, the sodium ions traveling along the axon initiating the -60mv in the Na+\K+ATPase pump, I have been having trouble keeping the electrical signal from voiding down the fibers to tech the amplifier. I tried voided fiber but to no avail...... Okay I reall don't have any questions as I already know everything there is to know regarding this thing just wanted to talk jargin a little.

Hasnt that kind of work already been done? U. Florida guys cultured a bunch of rat cortical neurons on a grid of electrodes which were connected to a F-22 simulator. These cortical neurons worked to keep the aircraft (simulator) in level flight controlling the pitch and yaw. I guess you already know of that, no?
So what do you use, primary cultures or a single axon?

 

[Mosamania]

Hasnt that kind of work already been done? U. Florida guys cultured a bunch of rat cortical neurons on a grid of electrodes which were connected to a F-22 simulator. These cortical neurons worked to keep the aircraft (simulator) in level flight controlling the pitch and yaw. I guess you already know of that, no?
So what do you use, primary cultures or a single axon?

Nope not the kind of work we are doing. We are trying to minimize axon impulse to create more input similar to how neurons work.

The one they did was kind of working around the concept by making a single input to output creating a positive signal but without the diversity of real neuron output. There is no use creating the output like turning on a light pulp with it while controls g diverse range of outputs simultaneously, and that is the hard part with a real application possibility.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

@Redbull : How did the Prophet (PBUH) know of Galen & his work when Greek works weren't translated into Arabic till well into the Abassid Caliphate ?

Nor is there any indication to suggest that the Prophet (PBUH) was a literate man capable of appreciating Galen's Scientific Discovery nor is this something that would be discussed in common parlance.

greek roman traders have been trading through arabian ports and caravans for a thousand years before islam.The massive indo roman trade was conducted through arabian red sea ports.Plus there was the silk road route,the persian royal road.
When alexander conquered the east he brought with him greek hellenism and all its ideas in the east.The succesor kingdoms ruled for hundreds of years,infact antioch syria was the capital of the seleucid empire.The arab caravans maintained a brisk trade.The romans had a province named western arabia.
Zenobia's attempt at revolt against rome was ta palmyra,In essence after alexander the entire east was exposed to hellenic ideas and remained so.