ISI and Soviets

[Irfan Baloch]

We were supporting the Mujahideen far before the Americans and even the Soviets ever got involved.

exactly, Americans saw the opportunity and joined in. Afghans were fighting with the occupation forces well before the American weapons arrived, actually the Americans were far more careful and discrete about it in the beginning. we being the neighbors with sizable Pastho population were bound to be affected specially when Soviets together with Khad and RAW had already started terrorism inside Pakistan and their generals were openly talking about invading Pakistan. ANP before it became a mainstream political party .. was an outright hostile Pakistani state and a working tool of KGB and Khad. people have half baked and limited knowledge they read few things and have selective memory and just join the bandwagon of blame it all on Pakistan (state, establishment)

 

[Reichsmarschall]

At that time , Iran was not backed by any one ....

but you do understand that Communists were threats to Pakistan
Pakistan felt
insecure. India was on her eastern flank, an enormous nation of 800 million hostile Hindus, with
whom Pakistan had fought three times. To the west lay Afghanistan and the Soviets, a communist
superpower whose army was now deployed within easy reach of the mountain passes into Pakistan.
Potentially, it was a highly dangerous strategic situation. India and the Soviet Union were allies;
should they combine, Pakistan faced the prospect of being squeezed out of existence

 

[Ocean]

the worst thing we did was that we used islam for our benefits and we used nationalism when it suited us. that makes us hypocrites by any definition. today our enemies are using the same "islam" against our nationalism.

This is true at that time we did misuse name of islam for whatever the reasons we did but islams name was defo misused whether allowing usa to attack afganistan in 2001 was right or not.How can it not be when a usa president or someone goes on record to say we all are doing jihad ; a country never known to be anyones genuine ally

 

[Torch_v2.0]

but you do understand that Communists were threats to Pakistan
Pakistan felt
insecure.

So why Communist china was Pakistan's ally/Friend ?

 

[Reichsmarschall]

@Torch i suggest you to read this book

So why Communist china was Pakistan's ally/Friend ?

because India was their enemy which is also Pakistan's enemy real Pak China friendship began after 1962 India sino war

 

[Torch_v2.0]

@Torch i just you to read this book


because India was their enemy which is also Pakistan's enemy real Pak China friendship began after 1962 India sino war

Thanks Brother !!!!!!!!!

 

[Path-Finder]

correction:
we supported the Afghan resistance against the Soviet occupation because we were next in line. American assistance was helpful in bringing down the Soviet war machinery

after 9/11 Pakistani leadership urged Taliban to handover Osama , ISI chief together with Saudi Intelligence chief personally visited Mullah Omar advising him to not take American threats lightly and least give up OBL to neutral country to stand trial for his involvement. Sadly Omar lacked the comprehension of his refusal
we continued our diplomatic ties with them till the end untill the regime fell.


so ... NO we were not the sell outs we stayed till the end with them and even today we not only house their refugees but also take the blame for housing their leadership and continue to arrange for peaceful settlement.

dont be so dismissive about Pakistan

Britain and France arrived first to help, the US came into this conflict much later on!

 

[litman]

well this is your opinion and thanks for frankly sharing it but I must say
you have a very low view of us Pakistanis and I respectfully disagree with it.
I dont know how nationalism and Islam are mutually exclusive and contradictory to each other. Quran itself recognizes us in unique tribes and nations.

how does identifying ourselves as Muslims is worse? it is the same identity which made the basis of 2 nation theory and eventual creation of Pakistan.

i have no problem with ourselves identifying as muslims rather it should be our first identity but the problem is that in the past we did propaganda using the name of islam for our benefits. it was as you said in the other post was our need of the time. so we took funding from saudia and US , trained and equipped the "mujahideen", filled their minds with the saudi version of islam (whose latest fruit is the ISIS). we called it jihad and fight for ummah etc but the problem started when we took the huge U turn regarding these forces which we trained before. that was totally under US pressure and we totally succumbed to the pressure. we gave them logistics, bases to carry out strikes and kill mujahideen which were our brothers a decade ago. at that point we raised a new slogan "sab sa pahlay pakistan". isnt it funny? at one point we were supporters of ummah and few years later we were supporters of nationalism. now the people we trained in our madrassahs rose against us . this time they were used by our enemies. it was result of our U turn. some people were happy with "sab say pahlay pakistan " while others could not digest it. it was really easy for anti pak forces to recruit such people to be used against pak and we have been fighting the forces we trained.
the concept of nationalism is very important and difficult to understand. Allah says "Allah ki rassi to mazboti say thamay rakho or tafarukay main mat parho" .now these differences can be based upon sects, countries, provinces, etc. please read iqbal's opinion about nationalism in which he called country as the greatest shirk of modern age. majority of us take iqbal as the greatest thinker of our history. you are right pak was created in the name of islam but it doesnt mean that we should become blind supporter of pak govt . we should try to make this country better in the name of islam but we should condemn the acts of the govt which are against the instructions of islam. in our graves we will be either muslims or non muslims. terms like pakistanis, saudis, iranis wont be accepted at all. our love and actions for islam will be accounted for and our actions in the name of any other person, nation, sect, tribe, country will be discarded . the original "watan" of our Prophet was makkah. he loved it but when the conditions became extremely harsh he left it and migrated to madina in the name of islam. the love for homeland is natural but it should not go beyond the love for islam. we muslims love our parents, kids, wives etc but we are instructed that if their demands are in contradiction with the demands, requirements and principles of islam we will have to ignore our family's demands. same is the case with country. we can work for the betterment for its people in the name of islam but when the country adopts a policy which is against isla m we should resist it through lawful and proper ways .
hope i made myself clear.

just watching a power play at ary. imran khan rightly pointed our mistake . he says that when russians invaded afghanistan mujahideed were doing jihad against them but when US invaded afghanistan these mujahideens became terrorists. he nailed it in one sentence and this is the point i have been commenting about.

 

[Ocean]

exactly, Americans saw the opportunity and joined in. Afghans were fighting with the occupation forces well before the American weapons arrived, actually the Americans were far more careful and discrete about it in the beginning. we being the neighbors with sizable Pastho population were bound to be affected specially when Soviets together with Khad and RAW had already started terrorism inside Pakistan and their generals were openly talking about invading Pakistan. ANP before it became a mainstream political party .. was an outright hostile Pakistani state and a working tool of KGB and Khad. people have half baked and limited knowledge they read few things and have selective memory and just join the bandwagon of blame it all on Pakistan (state, establishment)

Irfan sahab and @Talwar e Pakistan we were helping afghans before usa joined in but its after usa , saudia etc got together the narrative of jihad in the name of islam was spread world over to gather mujahideens from across the world and then we got uzbek, tajik , arabs and so many other nationalities fighters. Somewhere here islam was used wrongly , for a political advantage

 

[litman]

Irfan sahab and @Talwar e Pakistan we were helping afghans before usa joined in but its after usa , saudia etc got together the narrative of jihad in the name of islam was spread world over to gather mujahideens from across the world and then we got uzbek, tajik , arabs and so many other nationalities fighters. Somewhere here islam was used wrongly , for a political advantage

even hiliary clinton admitted this. she openly confessed how they recruited mujahideen against russia.

 

[Ocean]

And why is that Sir ?

In 71 when india had sponsored proxy war it was greatly aided by ussr , also an insurgecy was also started in early 70s or late 60s in balochistan province again with the nexus of ussr and india,which pakistan had managed to quash so if ussr had managed to capture afghanistan ,pakistan would have become a very easy target with indias support on the other side. Plus gawadar port has a more startegic location compared to chabahar but improtnt part was which country could get balkanized easily by two allies ussr and india and at that time it would have been pakistan

 

[SHAH820]

Think again Sir , Iran was much weaker than Iran at that time and was much vulnerable to invasion due to recent revolution.

if they attack iran they have to deal with iran afghanistan and pakistan by itself if they attack pakistan neighboring india would help them so soviet + india have to deal with pakistan and afghanistan while iran was busy in its revolution .pakistan have to deal with india soviets and chinese which were politically closer to soviets then pakistan

 

[Torch_v2.0]

if they attack iran they have to deal with iran afghanistan and pakistan by itself if they attack pakistan neighboring india would help them so soviet + india have to deal with pakistan and afghanistan while iran was busy in its revolution .pakistan have to deal with india soviets and chinese which were politically closer to soviets then pakistan

In 71 when india had sponsored proxy war it was greatly aided by ussr , also an insurgecy was also started in early 70s or late 60s in balochistan province again with the nexus of ussr and india,which pakistan had managed to quash so if ussr had managed to capture afghanistan ,pakistan would have become a very easy target with indias support on the other side. Plus gawadar port has a more startegic location compared to chabahar but improtnt part was which country could get balkanized easily by two allies ussr and india and at that time it would have been pakistan

As per logic of both of you , USSR+IRAQ Iran

 

[Ocean]

As per logic of both of you , USSR+IRAQ Iran

All i can talk about could be pure conjecture.
Also iran was an oil rich region, usa would never have liked to see even iran slipping into ussrs hands, at the same time it was supporting iraq too in war against iran and on the surface iranian and american regimes had huge rifts between them.
So usa would not have interfered in any way to prevent ussr from entering iran using iran , may be then usa tried using pakistan here.

As of pakistan lets say ussr had captured afghanistan and gained access to chahbahar port , pakistan would have become extremely vulnerable having one expansionist state sitting at one edge and a hostile state sitting on other edge. I dont believe pakistani strategists would have been so dumb so just give a nod to usa just to aid them in achieving their goal and not guarding their own interests.

Also as ussr had a history of collaborating with india in bangladesh seperation and KGB had remained involved in fomenting insurgency in balochistan , pakistan would have been at a constant risk. Do u think if afghanistan and iran had fallen into ussrs clutches then ussr and india would not have attacked pakistan? Also when ussr and india were close allies and india was further looking to damage pakistan? These are threat evaluations and decisions have to be made for survival

 

[Falcon26]

the worst thing we did was that we used islam for our benefits and we used nationalism when it suited us. that makes us hypocrites by any definition. today our enemies are using the same "islam" against our nationalism.

Welcome to the real world!

It was part of cold-war between USA and USSR and Pakistan represented USA for it's own benefit and created itself a target for USSR.
So please No Arabian Sea , I hope u understood Brother ....

You need to read history before you spew easily dismissible revisionist none sense. Zia was knee-deep before the US even approached him and was motivated by his own nation’s security interests. Actually, don’t even read any history, watch Charlie Wilson’s war. You will get better history than your schools have suceeded so far.