Is the OBL raid a blessing for exposing lapses in Pakistani defence system?

[KS]

There were media reports that children were walking off with pieces of the wreckage as souvenir. The Pakistani authorities did not cordon off the area for several days and curious 'tourists' were swarming the place. In this case, our authorities' incompetence seems to have had a silver lining.

And the children and tourists were Chinese agents ?

There is absolutely no doubt that parts of the wreckage are now sitting in some high tech lab in China.

Any way as I said - each one to his own - if the Pakistanis can actually think of something positive - anything - in this particular time, I'll give it to them for their optimism.

When the helicopter crashed, it's rear tail broke off during collision with the perimeter wall, & it broke split the rear from the rest of the body. While the body fell inside the perimeter of the bin Laden compound, the tail that split fell OUTSIDE the perimeter walls. As the walls were very high, they couldn't destroy the rear tail of the helicopter.

Actually the quoted post is THE answer to your post. Read it carefully.

 

[53fd]

Actually the quoted post is THE answer to your post. Read it carefully.

When did I deny anything. My point is that the rear tail was completely intact, along with the circuitry & wiring connections inside it. They couldn't destroy any of that. So it is more than useful information for Pakistan that it could ship out to China.

 

[KS]

When did I deny anything. My point is that the rear tail was completely intact, along with the circuitry & wiring connections inside it. They couldn't destroy any of that. So it is more than useful information for Pakistan that it could ship out to China.

Ok I'll help you with that ;

Repost -

And do you HONESTLY think they(US) would not have taken possession of the wreckage IF they think that all parts have not been destroyed properly or not destroyed enough to reverse engineer especially given the amount of influence they wield on the GoP and their paranoia about the Chinese ?

US may be incompetent in some areas - but not THIS incompetent.

Meaning if they got to know that certain critical parts were not destroyed properly as to not reverse engineer , they would have takes possession of the wreckage and the GoP can do NOTHING about it.

 

[XYON]

Xyon,

What a wonderful post at a time like this---indeed---the country needs warriors and thinkers like you---yes with your comments and thinking---indeed make the country proud----hail the great warrior of islam and pakistan---XYON-----.

See??!! Now that was not hard to understand now was it? Respect begets respect Junior! Live and learn!

 

[53fd]

And the children and tourists were Chinese agents ?



Any way as I said - each one to his own - if the Pakistanis can actually think of something positive - anything - in this particular time, I'll give it to them for their optimism.



Actually the quoted post is THE answer to your post. Read it carefully.

You also seem to forget some other important things. Stealth technology has been around for a long time now, & even Pakistan has fighter jets. However, this was the world's first HELICOPTER. No country had ever thought of incorporating stealth technology onto a helicopter. So even if a lot of parts of the helicopter were destroyed, as the secret that the US used stealth helicopters for this operation (which while isn't so remarkable, shows that the US has been using such helicopters for a long time, & have possibly used them inside other sovereign countries as well). The US designing the world's first stealth helicopter clearly showed they had out-thought the world, & had most probably been using these helicopters illegally before inside other countries as well. So anyways, the secret is out, & don't be surprised that other countries start producing their stealth helicopters as well from now on.

 

[53fd]

Ok I'll help you with that ;

Repost -
Meaning if they got to know that certain critical parts were not destroyed properly as to not reverse engineer , they would have takes possession of the wreckage and the GoP can do NOTHING about it.

But they didn't. This is what the GOP has of the helicopter:

Look closely at the second picture. You can quite easily see that the wiring & circuitry inside the tail is intact, & the US could not destroy it. This is what Pakistan has in its possession.

 

[KS]

But they didn't. This is what the GOP has of the helicopter:

Look closely at the second picture. You can quite easily see that the wiring & circuitry inside the tail is intact, & the US could not destroy it. This is what Pakistan has in its possession.

You think GoP still has it ?

Let me be clear - if the US did not care for taking re-possesion of the wreckage it means others can do nilch with what is remaining.

If something at all can be done with the wreckage - the US would have got its hands on it by now.

 

[Developereo]

And the children and tourists were Chinese agents ?

I am sure 'interested' parties managed to track down those souvenirs. And the US doesn't have an inventory of which parts were destroyed and which parts remained.

You think GoP still has it ?

Let me be clear - if the US did not care for taking re-possesion of the wreckage it means others can do nilch with what is remaining.

If something at all can be done with the wreckage - the US would have got its hands on it by now.

Your desperation is showing: you are letting it cloud your judgement.

I know Indians are loathe to admit that Pakistan and China may derive benefit from this episode, but you'll just have to keep burning. You can't change reality by wishing it away or inventing time travel. The fact is that parts of the wreckage were left behind and the US doesn't know where everything went. The (alleged) incompetence of the Pakistani authorities saves the day.

What's going to burn you up even more is that this stealth technology may even be newer than the F-22.

 

[harpoon]

This is what what I think is going to happen.

After the dust settles down, US and PA (not Pakistan Govt) will sit down for a little chit-chat. The US will put a price on the wreckage and PA will negotiate. Then both parties will settle down for a price that is agreeable to both. In the end wreckage will be giftwraped and shipped to US while PA will receive some new toys as gift from their grateful ally for Pakistan's cooperation in the "War Against Terror". Everybody goes home happy.

 

[Thomas]

It exposed the deficiencies in the technologies used by the Pakistan Air Force. Furthermore, it exposed the secret stealth program used by the US (no country in the world knows) in their helicopters, & there were parts of the helicopter that were left behind in Abbottabad. Pakistan has already shipped out these parts to China, & could acquire this technology through them. This could be a major breakthrough in terms of defense technology used by the US only, that it refuses to disclose to others.

Top Secret Stealth Helicopter Program Revealed in Osama Bin Laden Raid: Experts - ABC News

from what I have seen Pakistan is still in possesion of the tail section and in negotiations with the U.S. on it's return. Also the piece in question doesn't really reveal ground breaking stealth technology that isn't already known by people in the field (angled surfaces, number of rotars, Ram coating, ECT.). What caught people by surprise was the fact that the silent hawk had been actually deployed. And it wasn't stealth that allowed them to fly so far into Pakistan. Becuase not all the helicopters were stealthy, there were chinooks in the mix to. But the skill of the pilots flying so low to the earth at night. And the electronic warfare ability of the U.S. to jam radar and communications.

Here are a couple drawings I found of the Silent Hawk. which one is closest to reality? .....who knows!

 

[Developereo]

Also the piece in question doesn't really reveal ground breaking stealth technology that isn't already known by people in the field (angled surfaces, number of rotars, Ram coating, ECT.).

Yes but, unless the materials and paint on the F-22 are a trade secret of that particular defence contractor, it is possible that the same technology may be in use on these choppers. In that sense, it is like getting your hands on a piece of the F-22 fuselage.

 

[MastanKhan]

And do you HONESTLY think they would not have taken possession of the wreckage if they think that all parts have not been destroyed properly or not destroyed enough to reverse engineer especially given the amount of influence they wield on the GoP and their paranoia about the Chinese ?

US may be incompetent in some areas - but not THIS incompetent.

Karthic sri,

How are you my man----I don't think that at this stage you need to have the thing sitting in front of you to reverse it-----once you have the digital photographs and videos of the actual tail piece and part of the structural design----the computer will take care of the rest of the parameters within reason----.

Please remember that rumours of its existence were already there---the scientists all over the world had some image in their minds what it would be like----plus the material from the radar absorbant paint is there---even a smaller piece would suffice---. So---other than that--the cat is out of he hat-----.

The russians would just use the picture vidoes to come up with the requisite shape---and it is not only the pak and china that would do something---the russians would have their operatives looking to buy the pieces as well----and if you think think that india would not be interested----you are wrong----operators from interested countries would be willing to pay good sums of money to people who have the skin pieces of the chopper.

The only way pak could have let everyone out of it---if there were no pictures released of the chopper pieces----that was another blunder by our armed and security forces---.

 

[MastanKhan]

See??!! Now that was not hard to understand now was it? Respect begets respect Junior! Live and learn!

Sir,

Evere heard the saying--" don't argue with a fool---he will take you to his level and beat you with experience "-----that is what it was and nothing out of respect for you---.


Thomas,

Care to shed some light on the issue if the pak F16's were pursuing the choppers---how could the radar and missile source codes could be used by the americans to prevent the strike----or would it be a simple case of usaf jamming the radars of the pak F16's and the u s F 18 launching amraam 120's from across the border at the F 16's in pursuit.

Obama mentioned in his speech many a times that he was extremely concerned about hte safety of he team that was flying into pak----which could only mean all strike options were open to the american pilots flying acroos the borders in pak territory---.

 

[Thomas]

Sir,

Evere heard the saying--" don't argue with a fool---he will take you to his level and beat you with experience "-----that is what it was and nothing out of respect for you---.


Thomas,

Care to shed some light on the issue if the pak F16's were pursuing the choppers---how could the radar and missile source codes could be used by the americans to prevent the strike----or would it be a simple case of usaf jamming the radars of the pak F16's and the u s F 18 launching amraam 120's from across the border at the F 16's in pursuit.

Obama mentioned in his speech many a times that he was extremely concerned about hte safety of he team that was flying into pak----which could only mean all strike options were open to the american pilots flying acroos the borders in pak territory---.

Chogy would be the one to ask concerning the F-16's since he was an F-16 pilot. As far as Obama being concerned it sheds more light on the fact that Pakistan really was kept in the dark concerning the raid. And any president is going to be concerned with things going wrong no matter how prepared the U.S. was for eventualities. I can just imagine how hard his heart must of sank to his feat when the one Chopper lost power and hit the ground.

As far as I know none of the F-16's had any idea where the choppers were the whole time. Most likely becuase they flew nap of the earth the whole time. On a side note that brings back old memories in C-130 and C-141's flying NAP of the earth. After awhile your stomach is never so glad when it is time to jump out.

 

[TruthSeeker]

The USA may care somewhat that Pakistan/China now have some "stealth" helicopter technical pieces. However, what the USA really cares about is its ability to project military power wherever and whenever it needs to, without paying too high a price. So, the real negative for the USA would be if the captured components help with the task of detecting the helicopter by the militaries of the areas where the USA wants to operate. And, we really don't know much about whether that would be the case given what survived the SEAL demolition. If, in ten years, a Chinese stealth helicopter emerges from this, then that is really a problem for China's neighbors, not the USA. That would allow China to project military power in its neighborhood at a smaller price. Meanwhile, unless the loss at Abbottabad helps the detection capabilities of the defenders that are found where the USA wants to project power, then we will happily fly along with our small observability, just fine. I wonder if we have let the Israelis study our new toys? Might be a very useful thing for them, too.