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Is the F-35 JSF a Lemon, the arguments are compelling

Actually...THAT is the norm and have been for decades. Think about it...

The F-15 and F-16 platforms does how many jobs ? Sure, we may have the F-15A/C models does strictly air-air, but the F-15 platform itself have been modified to do both air-air and air-ground missions. Same for the F-16, F-4, and even the F-14 was experimented with to deliver bombs. The reality is that only the bombers have remain true to their original mission, whereas the fighter platform, no matter country of origin, have been tasked to go from air superiority to strike to reconnaissance. Countries that have no choice but to import their defense needs multi-missions capable aircrafts..
not like that..... sure the f16 can do multiple tasks, such as air to air and anti ship etc.... but you missed the point. is the f16 stovl? the f35 can do that sure theres 3 varients that are for the airforce, navy , marines and royal navy but i think a plane specifically designed for stovl missions like the harrier and planes specifically built for carrier landings like the f18. thats what im trying to say. and when you have the f35b in particular being heaverier and having slightly less performance than the f35b.
the f35 can engage in targets whilst supersonic, its roll and turn angles are much higher than even 1960era jets. it can only supercruies for a short period of time. i would love to see a carrier version of the typhoon like what the french did with the rafale.
 
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Did you know that Pierre Sprey originally wanted the F-16 to be WITHOUT radar ?

alright so the guy smoked crack every now and again, he still came up with a greatest example of a multirole fighter the worlds seen, and what about the others who are pooh poohing the JSF's dog fighting abilities.

countries have spent billions of dollars on the JSF without seeing it in action. LM should be conducting real time excercises with airforces of these countries buying the plane to demonstrate whether its worth all that much. Lets see how it goes against the Rafale or Typhoon in various scenarios
 
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not like that..... sure the f16 can do multiple tasks, such as air to air and anti ship etc.... but you missed the point. is the f16 stovl? the f35 can do that sure theres 3 varients that are for the airforce, navye , marines and royal navy but i think a plane specifically designed for stovl missions like the harrier and planes specifically built for carrier landings like the f18. thats what im trying to say. and when you have the f35b in particular being heaverier and having slightly less performance than the f35b.
the f35 can engage in targets whilst supersonic, its roll and turn angles are much higher than even 1960era jets. it can only supercruies for a short period of time. i would love to see a carrier version of the typhoon like what the french did with the rafale.
My point is that it is easy to criticize and dismiss the multi-roles aspect of the F-35 when the demand for multi-roles have ALWAYS been the norm. You can make a legitimate criticism against the VTOL version, but that would be a side argument.

The USN used to sail with the F-14, F-18, S-3 Viking, A-6, and E2. Now it is F-18 and E2. You do not need to be an expert in logistics to see the difficulties with the old days. You do not need to be an expert in HR to see the difficulties in maintaining training and certifications for several platforms versus two.

The F-35 is very much the first fighter to be designed with multi-roles from conception, whereas all other platforms became multi-roles after the fact.
 
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1.My point is that it is easy to criticize and dismiss the multi-roles aspect of the F-35 when the demand for multi-roles have ALWAYS been the norm. You can make a legitimate criticism against the VTOL version, but that would be a side argument.

2. The USN used to sail with the F-14, F-18, S-3 Viking, A-6, and E2. Now it is F-18 and E2. You do not need to be an expert in logistics to see the difficulties with the old days. You do not need to be an expert in HR to see the difficulties in maintaining training and certifications for several platforms versus two.

3. The F-35 is very much the first fighter to be designed with multi-roles from conception, whereas all other platforms became multi-roles after the fact.
1. well there nothing that comes with out cirtisism, like then obama ended the f22 production line. that was plain stupid. the needs at least 500 of those. instead you have like 200 ish

2. i understand the concept of how one platform can take multiple roles but then it gets to big, complicated and expensive. then you end up with somthing that should be a world class fighter, but isnt.

3. true the US is pretty much a pioneer in multirole jets from concepts from the beiining. but they should have done somthing the the f15/f15 and gadually upgrade it. i didnt think boeing did not forsee the f15 having removable consealeable weapons in the f15se

in all i do like the f35c

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alright so the guy smoked crack every now and again, he still came up with a greatest example of a multirole fighter the worlds seen, and what about the others who are pooh poohing the JSF's dog fighting abilities.

He did not, he is is not the designer of the f-16 or even one of them, he isn't even an engineer. "He was part of the DoD team that pushed for a light-weight fighter and helped come up with the requirements of the program."

The plane was designed by General Dynamics.

He contributed to analysis on what role the F-16 should fill, but no design, and in the end they abandoned those requirements and he hated what the F-16 became. Same with the A-10.

He believes Radar is only an obstacle to maneuverability

Why the F-35 is a lemon - Pierre Sprey - General F-35 Forum

Pierre Sprey in general advocates many small cheap single role fighters that can be bought in bulk. He also is a critic of the F-15, arguably one of the most successful fighters ever built.

We wanted hot, light airplanes that were just as stripped-down as possible... They took an austere, stripped-down F-5 and ruined it by loading crap on it. Adding Sparrow missiles required huge complexity on the airplane. Adding air-to-ground capability ruined the F-20A.

Northrop F-20 | Project Gutenberg Self-Publishing - eBooks | Read eBooks online



Basically no country in the world is going towards what he believes is the perfect plane.

His views are stuck in the 1970's, he is no longer relevant except as a talking mouthpiece.

The actual designers of the F-16 are sadly dead.

Pierre Sprey and the Fighter Mafia got it wrong. | Bring the heat, Bring the Stupid

If you get your defense analysis from Pierre Sprey, punch yourself in the face. | Bring the heat, Bring the Stupid

countries have spent billions of dollars on the JSF without seeing it in action. LM should be conducting real time excercises with airforces of these countries buying the plane to demonstrate whether its worth all that much. Lets see how it goes against the Rafale or Typhoon in various scenarios

Here you go.
It is starting to be delivered and its being tested.

United Kingdom F-35B Testing | Code One Magazine

United Kingdom F-35B Testing - CODE ONE Magazine - F-35 milestones

The Aviationist » The Italian Air Force welcomes the first F-35A delivered outside the U.S.

The sensor fusion of the F-35 will also be a game changer, less time figuring out the battlespace, more time reacting to it, and this can be shared to augment legacy jets!

Basically look at what the F-22 is doing in Syria, and now imagine the F-35 a plane specializing in just such a role!

The Aviationist » U.S. F-22 Raptor stealth jets provide kinetic situational awareness over Syria

I will leave off with this.

Å fly F-35 – erfaringer fra den første uka (Flying the F-35 – English translation below) |

from a pilot with 2000+ hours on the F-16 and test flying the F-35.

Flying the F-35 – Experiences from the First Week

(Ed: On 10 November 2015 the first Norwegian F-35-pilot, Major Morten «Dolby» Hanche flew the F-35 for the first time at Luke Air Force Base. After one week and four flights in the F-35 Major Hanche has summarized his impression of the aircraft so far in this blog post. In order to make his post accessible to a wider audience, we have translated it into English. We have tried to remain as true as possible to Major Hanche’s original text, though some words are difficult to translate directly into English. For instance, the Norwegian word «sprek» which Hanche uses a few time to describe the aircraft, is commonly used to describe a person that is fast, fit and vigorous. Here we have translated it generally as «fast», even though that doesn’t cover the full meaning of the word. Still, we hope the general impression comes through.)


I am left with many impressions after a handful of flights with the F-35 over Arizona. In this post, I will try to describe the feeling and perception I have developed flying the F-35 so far.

First things first; the aircraft is easy to handle on the ground. The brakes are direct and powerful yet predictable, and the nose wheel steering is precise. The steering has two «gears» making the process of maneuvering the aircraft in and out of its parking spot under the sun screens that the aircraft are parked under. I hardly noticed the cross winds when I took off for the first time. It was easy to put the nose of the aircraft where I wanted it when I raised it for takeoff. The aircraft was stable in the air from the second it lifted it off the ground, and requires no manual «trimming» on my part.

An odd experience I want to mention is the feeling of bringing up the landing gear. In the F-16 I really don’t notice it that much. In the F-35, however, there is no doubt that the wheels are being retracted. As my American buddy «Nails» said after his first trip: «It felt like someone hit the airplane with a hammer!» A solid and noticeable «CLUNK» tells you that the gear is up. It could possibly have something to do with the fact that the landing gear is quite huge.

With wheels up I quickly noticed another peculiarity with F-35; the aircraft has a kind of continuous quivering sensation. A kind of weak high-frequency tremor. A bit like the feeling you get standing on the top deck of an old car ferry where you can sense a weak vibration from the engine. This trembling is fairly constant until I begin maneuvering the aircraft more aggressively. That increases the force of the trembling until it is like driving a car on a graveled cottage road. This kind of trembling is often referred by the technical term «buffeting».

Buffeting can be a problem if it is too violent. In the T-38 training aircraft I once had an engine instrument (the tachometer) that was shaken out of the instrument panel. That is problematic. Vigorous shaking can also make it difficult to read the instruments in the cockpit, and thus prevent the pilot doing his job. In that case it becomes critical.

A more positive side to buffeting however is that it acts as feedback to the pilot. In modern fighters computers decide which control surfaces are to be moved and how much – «fly-by-wire». That means the pilot misses out on important feedback through the rudder pedals and control stick. How much I move them is not directly linked to what is actually happening with the control surfaces. The F/A-18, for example, moves the ailerons gradually in the opposite direction during heavy maneuvering, without me as a pilot really noticing. The aircraft is however still doing what I am asking it to do. Most Norwegian F-16s have little or no buffeting when maneuvering. That means that in the F-16 I have to use the instruments to get an impression of just much lift I am really demanding from the aircraft. I might be flying fast or slow – maybe dangerous slow – and the only hint I get comes from the gauges. In the F-35 I can physically feel whether I am operating the aircraft in its «good-zone» when maneuvering, or whether I am demanding too much from it and losing energy. I can also physically feel whether I am flying too fast or, worse, if I am flying dangerously slow in the landing pattern.

Critics have argued that the F-35 by definition is a slow aircraft, based on the balance between thrust from the engine and overall weight. However, when interviewed after my first flight, I said that I was impressed with the engine power of the aircraft. How can that be true? Am I bought and paid for by Lockheed Martin, or is it the Ministry of Defence that threatens government reprisals if I don’t provide «the official story»? I know that many have doubts regarding the F-35 when it comes to both maneuverability and engine power.

When I was a kid, my buddy Håkon and I would sometimes play «car trumps». The idea was to do to pull the card with the best car on it. The «best» car was usually the car with A) the most horsepower, or B) the greatest top speed (according to the card). My experience with aircraft so far is that the world is not black or white. «It depends» is an eternal mantra among pilots, and it is usually not easy to measure one system against another. Another point to consider is what data we are actually comparing. The F-16 manual for instance says that the aircraft is capable of going more than twice the speed of sound. I have flown more than 2,000 hours in the F-16 and have never been able to get the aircraft to go that fast. Is it not correct that the F-16 can achieve twice the speed of sound? Are we overstating the facts by claiming that this is the real performance of the aircraft?

I still claim that the F-35 is fast compared to the F-16, an aircraft I know well. Can this be explained as nothing but lies? I believe it can. The F-35 has a huge engine. Another important factor is that the F-35 has low aerodynamic drag, because it carries all the systems and weapons internally. The F-16 is fast and agile when clean, but external stores steals performance. It is never relevant to discuss the performance of a stripped F-16. Therefore, this is never as simple as discussing the ratio of thrust and weight alone.

In any case, technical discussions aside, I was impressed by how steep the F-35 climbed after I did a «touch-and-go» on my first flight. Without using afterburner, and with more fuel on board than the F-16 can carry, I accelerated the aircraft to 300 knots in a continuous climb. Acceleration only stopped when I lifted the nose to more than 25 degrees above the horizon. I do not think our F-16 could have kept up with me without the use of afterburner. I was also impressed with how quickly the F-35 accelerates in afterburner. On my fourth flight I took off using full afterburner. The plane became airborne at 180 knots. At that point I had to immediately bring the engine back to minimum afterburner to avoid overspeed of the landing gear before it was fully retracted (speed limit is 300 knots).

Another first impression is how stable the aircraft is when flying in close formation. I have flown a handful of different fighter aircraft, and I have never had an easier job of maintaining close formation with another aircraft. The F-35 feels stable and predictable when making minor adjustments – much the same feeling I have driving a large American SUV. Still, when I move the stick or the throttle, the handling is both quick and precise (A SUV with a V8 – at least!). Overall, flying the F-35 reminds me a bit of flying the F/A-18 Hornet, but with an important difference: It has been fitted with a turbo.

The final point that I want to mention in this post is the experience of sitting in the cockpit. After reading about poor cooling and high noise levels in the cockpit, I was of course curious. I was pleasantly surprised. The «office space» was cool and comfortable, but above all, I was surprised by how quiet it was compared to what I’m used to. Is comfort important in a fighter jet? I believe it is. Not only during long missions that can last up to 10 hours, but also in daily exercises. It is obvious that a noise-insulated cockpit reduces hearing loss for pilots over time. I would also argue that it improves flight safety because it makes it easier to hear what is being transmitted on the radio and because noise becomes tiresome with time.

I’m saving a little for a later. Just the landing pattern is worth a small post in itself!
 
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Å fly F-35 – erfaringer fra den første uka (Flying the F-35 – English translation below) |

from a pilot with 2000+ hours on the F-16 and test flying the F-35.

Yup, it's such a lemon that Norway, who has the budget and political relations to acquire Rafale, Typhoon or Gripen NG - or anything non-Russia, is replacing their entire combat aircraft force, 52 F-16s, with the F-35.

If the F-35 was no good, it wouldn't be bought by a nation with alternatives. Cost, not performance - it's a freaken strike aircraft people - it wasn't meant to dog-fight with the best Russia or China can muster, is the most problematic issue with the F-35 and the reason Canada and Australia are undecided about its future in their arsenals.

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Royal Norwegian Air Force Maj. Morten Hanche, 62nd Fighter Squadron training pilot, climbs in for his first F-35 Lightning ll flight Nov. 10, 2015 at Luke Air Force Base. His flight coincides with the arrival of the first Norwegian F-35 and the Norwegian Air Force 71st anniversary.

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A formation of U.S. and Norwegian F-35 Lightning II soar over Luke Air Force Base, Arizona November 10, 2015. Today was the scheduled arrival of two F-35s for the Royal Norwegian air force while simultaneously celebrating the Norwegian air force’s birthday.

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Should countries wait for results before they jump on this 5th Gen band wagon. In JSF's case looks like theyve tried to satisfy all the parties (Airforce, navy, marines) and ended up with a plane that doesnt excel at anything.
Please summarize why each of the F-35A/B/C is a lemon (i.e. relate it to the three different branches which will be using it in US service and foreign service (A versions generally, with the exception of UK, which will take Bs)
 
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1. well there nothing that comes with out cirtisism, like then obama ended the f22 production line. that was plain stupid. the needs at least 500 of those. instead you have like 200 ish
I have no problems with criticisms. But what I have seen so far about the F-35 is mostly based from technical ignorance and obliquely at US via one of our products.

As for the F-22, the cancellation is from a financial/budgetary perspective and there are legitimate arguments for cancellation. Anyone is fully capable of putting on military hat and see the desire to have as much of 'the best' as possible, then put on the accountant's hat to look at the nation's money pie and allocations of a finite resource. This was a decision that personally I do not like but will not second guess.

2. i understand the concept of how one platform can take multiple roles but then it gets to big, complicated and expensive. then you end up with somthing that should be a world class fighter, but isnt.
If it is too early to call the F-35 a 'lemon', as its defenders on this forum and elsewhere, have argued, then it is equally valid as too early to call it 'world class'. Fair enough ?

I was on the F-111E for five yrs, stationed at RAF Upper Heyford during the height of the Cold War. The 'Vark was called a 'lemon' by many, if not most. But it turned out to be the world's best deep penetration strategic bomber. Not NATO's best. But THE WORLD'S best. The Soviets were practically terrified of it and they brought up the removal of the 'Varks from Heyford and Lakenheath at every arms controls negotiations.

My best memory on the -111 was one night when we did the French a favor in testing a new air defense radar that was to cover the Channel. We were a four-ship flight on a night air refueling training sortie. After re-gas, we got the request to help if we can spare the time. We split up. Two took the northern route and two straight thru the Channel. On the WSO's side, I set the TFR to 50 meters over the Channel. The French radar crew never saw us coming. We could have gone lower than 50 meters but decided not to because of potential Channel surface traffic. We planned our attack routes completely on the fly after re-gas. Minimal radio chatter. If it was a real attack, first to die would have been the air defense unit from the Channel flight, next to die would have been Paris from the northern flight, and both would be within minutes of each other.

There is no telling on how a platform will turn out. That is not a license to be carefree with the taxpayers' money and we, from designers to military, should make every effort to study a platform's proposed utility before commitment. But if our experience with the F-111 is any indicator, and the F-111's critics were venomous back then, it is that the US have a damn good record of making lemonade out of lemons. Our near obsessive-compulsive behavior in making anything as versatile as possible meshes very well with changing global military needs.

Finally, how confident were we, not just me, that the F-111 was THE WORLD'S best deep penetration strategic bomber ? Extremely confident thanks to Adolf Tolkachev.
 
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If it is too early to call the F-35 a 'lemon', as its defenders on this forum and elsewhere, have argued, then it is equally valid as too early to call it 'world class'. Fair enough ?

Still looks like a cane toadtoadmain_web_.jpg ;)
 
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in a high tech war against another high tech conventional military it isn't a lemon

but to fight terrorists that have limited to none SAM capability is just a waste.


you don't need a $100 million dollar jet that costs over $15,000 dollars to fly a hour to kill terrorists.
 
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in a high tech war against another high tech conventional military it isn't a lemon

but to fight terrorists that have limited to none SAM capability is just a waste.


you don't need a $100 million dollar jet that costs over $15,000 dollars to fly a hour to kill terrorists.
pretty much all of that will be done by UAVs from this point on.

I highly doubt F35 will ever be used for CAS...
It'll do deep strike missions with storm shadows but that's about it.

and since F22 was produced in such low numbers, air superiority will be done by F35 too.
so yeah it has better things to do than dropping jdams on terrorists :lol:
 
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