The U.S. Air Force Just Admitted The F-35 Stealth Fighter Has Failed - Forbes

[Dac O Dac]

This dogfight is not something that can be taken at face value for how a finalized F-35 jet will perform vs. F-16s in real-time combat situations.

The flying enveloppe is one of the main thing that is ended first during a fighter developpment phase. The agility of the F35 is now fully known and is at best average. Don't imagine it will be better in a neor or long future. It is a cold case in the F35 exemple.

These restrictions are being slowly but surely LIFTED in view of the efforts to make VLO characteristics more reliable

No link between VLO and a possible increase of agility. Agility possibilities are tuned once the plane is on the drawing board. There is so few to fine tune after. As said, F35 agility enveloppe is now reached. No good news to wait for.

This jet can perform maneuvers that necessitate TVC implementation in 4th generation jet fighters to pull off. This jet can perform maneuvers that even F-16s cannot for real.

LOOOOL ! Gripen, Eurofighter, Rafale are all best dog fighters. F35 only release some aero show manoeuvers, useless in combat situation (as cobra maneuvers for exemple) and with quite low fuel. In real life it is smashed by any good 4th gen fighter.

the PL15 has a much longer range that the meteor.

according to china news maybe. What is the NEZ of the PL15? That is the sole real usefull information.
A 300km range in the best situation, ie fired from very high altitude and very high speed against a non manoeuvring target is just a marketing data, but never used in combat.

 

[Dac O Dac]

Do you think the Meteor outranges the AMRAAM-D?

OF COURSE. by 50%
NEZ of Meteor > 60km
NEZ of AMRAAM C = 20 to 25km.
NEZ of AMRAAM D = 25 to 30km.

 

[serenity]

PL-15 range should be between 100 and 200km with lower NEZ. Not 300km!

It is modern version of PL-12 with better energy and two seeker function. It is different class to Meteor which is long range and using ramjet for energy and better energy. Chinese ramjet AAM is developed from PL-12 and PL-15 but not shown yet. They are much more expensive and not many made compared to PL-12 and PL-15.

PL-15 is about the equivalent to AIM-120D or R-77M. Longer range missiles are designed for different targets. Ramjet has better energy so can be better for agile target while big targets are for something like PL-21.

 

[LeGenD]

acha chalo, I'll put my point across in a different way, maybe my point of view is wrong & you can show me where I'm wrong. I'll ask a few questions, tell me if you agree:

1. the f35's primary aim is to create total situational awareness of the contested theater from relatively safe distance because of all the sensors it is proliferated with, do you agree?

2. even the u.s. admits that the heat/ir/thermal signature is almost impossible to mask so best to create an aircraft that can manage everything & attack or facilitate the attack of air & ground targets without being in the range of ir guided or thermal guided weapon systems, do you agree?

3. the u.s. also admits that it is impossible to be stealthy against all bands of radars so it is best to be stealthy against radar bands that can pose a direct threat in combat so the radar networks on L band can see the aircraft all they want from afar, because they'll not be able to reach it let alone kill it, do you agree?

1. YES; the F-35 is excellent for creating situational awareness of the theater - you got this right.

The 'relatively safe distance' part of your statement suggest a certain type of mission in which the F-35 is relocated to the battle management role and facilitate other war-machines in doing their job. This is certainly possible and extensively tested employment dynamic.

But the aforementioned role is not a requirement; the F-35 is a well-equipped war-machine in itself and a true VLO design on top. If a mission necessitate strikes on multiple targets and internal payload of the F-35 is the limiting factor, then solution is in "numbers."

Essentially this:

[1]

2. True VLO design is supposed to be LO in a range of spectrums such as Electromagnetic, Infrared, Visual, and Acoustic.

The F-35 is LO in infrared spectrum as well:

[1]

[2]

[2]

[2]

[2]

[3]

There is a limit to how many photos I can post in one reply so I would suggest you to dig into limitations of infrared imaging.

3. Do you know that it is possible to make an aircraft LO across all bands? B-2A Spirit was a FIRST.

The S-400 system is equipped with several radar systems to facilitate its target acquisition process. Therefore, solution is to make an aircraft LO across all bands with appropriate mix of design-related considerations and RAM applications. This is true for F-35 in fact.

I will give you a hint:

[4]

Now check this revelation:

[5]

What does it tell you? That the S-400 system can detect, track, and engage the F-35 around 21 miles mark given its sensor fidelity. On the flip side, VLO characteristics of the F-35 reduced target acquisition and engagement capacity of the S-400 system to this level in its case. And this is the point all along; the F-35 is supposed to make it possible for the pilot to engage and KILL the S-400 system much earlier. Mission accomplished.

Even if the S-400 system is linked to additional number of A2/AD arrangements in the vicinity, they will be useless because they do not match S-400 system in sensor fidelity to begin with.

Dedicated LF radar systems such as YJ-27 class can make it possible for the S-400 system to detect, tack, and engage the F-35 at earlier distances such as around 30 - 50 KM mark subject to positioning and level of integration but even this enhancement is of limited benefit and both types of assets will be taken out. Even if you have limited knowledge of NATO conventional warfare methods, you will know as much.

REFERENCES

[1] Link: https://www.scribd.com/document/381450409/Norway-and-F-35-7-nov-2013

[2] Link: https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com/

[3] Hamstra, J. W., & McCallum, B. N. (2010). Tactical aircraft aerodynamic integration. Encyclopedia of Aerospace Engineering.

[4] Link: https://slideplayer.com/slide/12976539/

[5] Link: https://www.airforcemag.com/article/f-15ex-vs-f-35a/

 

[LeGenD]

The flying enveloppe is one of the main thing that is ended first during a fighter developpment phase. The agility of the F35 is now fully known and is at best average. Don't imagine it will be better in a neor or long future. It is a cold case in the F35 exemple.

No link between VLO and a possible increase of agility. Agility possibilities are tuned once the plane is on the drawing board. There is so few to fine tune after. As said, F35 agility enveloppe is now reached. No good news to wait for.

LOOOOL ! Gripen, Eurofighter, Rafale are all best dog fighters. F35 only release some aero show manoeuvers, useless in combat situation (as cobra maneuvers for exemple) and with quite low fuel. In real life it is smashed by any good 4th gen fighter.

FYI

F-35: What The Pilots Say

Firsthand accounts of flying the world's most advanced fighter.

www.airspacemag.com

The First Reports Of How The F-35 Strutted Its Stuff In Dogfights Against Aggressors At Red Flag Are Starting To Emerge

Red Flag 19-1 has just come to an end and, based on official reports, once again the F-35 held its own against the Aggressors. You may probably remember

theaviationist.com

My condolences.

 

[shanlung]

Even by Pentagon terms, this was a dud: The disastrous saga of the F-35

The military-industrial complex spent $2 trillion building a "flying Swiss Army knife." Now it's been shelved

www.salon.com

That's why they call it the "flying Swiss Army knife." Have you ever tried to use one of the things? First of all, you can't find the knife blade, hidden as it is among scissors and screwdrivers and can openers and nose hair tweezers and nail files and pliers. The geniuses at the Pentagon decided they needed to replace the aging F-16 fighter, and everybody wanted in on it.

The F-35 will carry four different air-to-air missiles, six air-to-ground missiles and one anti-ship missile, but the problem is, all of them have to be fired from the air, and right now, the F-35 isn't yet "operational," which means, essentially, that it's so unsafe to fly the damn things, they spend most of their time parked.

The F-35, on the other hand, can't fly at twice the speed of sound. In fact, it comes with what amounts to a warning label on its control panel marking supersonic flight as "for emergency use only." So it's OK to fly the thing like a 737, but if you want to go really fast, you have to ask permission, which promises to work really, really well in a dogfight. What are pilots going to do if they're being pursued by a supersonic enemy jet?

Crappy engine for F35

But it gets worse. The heat coating on the engine's rotor blades is failing at a rate that leaves 5 to 6 percent of the F-35 fleet parked on the tarmac at any given time, awaiting not just engine repairs, but total replacement.



There's also the problem with the plane's "stealth" capability, which is compromised if you fly the thing too fast, because the coating that makes the plane invisible to radar has a bad habit of peeling off, making the planes completely visible to enemy radar.

But fear not, Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Charles Q. Brown Jr. has come up with a solution. He announced last week that henceforth, the Pentagon is going to treat the F-35 as the "Ferrari" of the U.S. combat air fleet. "You don't drive your Ferrari to work every day, you only drive it on Sundays. This is our 'high end' fighter, we want to make sure we don't use it all for the low-end fight," he said in a press conference on Feb. 17.


Got it. If an enemy decides to start a war on a Tuesday or Wednesday, we'll just "drive" our aging F-16's, so our precious F-35s can be left in the garage waiting for good weather on Sunday. I'm sure we can get everyone to sign up for the "we'll only go to war on Sunday" treaty.

The F-35 can be understood best as a na-na-na-na-na problem. Originally developed for the Air Force, the minute the thing was on the drafting table, the Navy and Marines started crying, "Hey, what about us?" To quiet the jealous fit being thrown by the other services, the Pentagon agreed to turn the thing into the "Swiss Army knife" it has become.

 

[Khanate]

F-35 is far from a "failure".

The "failure" or concern about F-35 is that it is too costly a plane to lose in war. A loss of a single F-35 would be a boon in propaganda for the opposing side.

Think back to the time when Lockheed F-117A Nighthawk was shot down by the Serbs, it gave Serbs something to talk about but Serbs sure as hell didn't win the war.

Given the sophistication of the adversary USAF faces in PLAAF and Russian air force, F-35s will likely be shot down in the future at some point which given the high-cost, and profile of the plane is a concern. But this is far from a failure of the F-35 programme.

USAF has plenty of options and mature technology to choose from and it can easily re-calibrate its high-low mix of fighter jets and this would adequately address these concerns. This is sort of what Pierre Sprey has been arguing for.

 

[shanlung]

F-35 is far from a "failure".

The "failure" or concern about F-35 is that it is too costly a plane to lose in war. A loss of a single F-35 would be a boon in propaganda for the opposing side.

Think back to the time when Lockheed F-117A Nighthawk was shot down by the Serbs, it gave Serbs something to talk about but Serbs sure as hell didn't win the war.

View attachment 721361

View attachment 721362

Given the sophistication of the adversary USAF faces in PLAAF and Russian air force, F-35s will likely be shot down in the future at some point which given the high-cost, and profile of the plane is a concern. But this is far from a failure of the F-35 programme.

USAF has plenty of options and mature technology to choose from and it can easily re-calibrate its high-low mix of fighter jets and this would adequately address these concerns. This is sort of what Pierre Sprey has been arguing for.

You know a lot more than this?

Even by Pentagon terms, this was a dud: The disastrous saga of the F-35

The military-industrial complex spent $2 trillion building a "flying Swiss Army knife." Now it's been shelved

www.salon.com

 

[Dac O Dac]

FYI

F-35: What The Pilots Say

Firsthand accounts of flying the world's most advanced fighter.

www.airspacemag.com

The First Reports Of How The F-35 Strutted Its Stuff In Dogfights Against Aggressors At Red Flag Are Starting To Emerge

Red Flag 19-1 has just come to an end and, based on official reports, once again the F-35 held its own against the Aggressors. You may probably remember

theaviationist.com

My condolences.

LOL.
The red force is systematically US planes....
It's only marketing biaised drill, in which all is made to save the fat soldier F35.

 

[Dac O Dac]

PL-15 range should be between 100 and 200km with lower NEZ.

The chinese are copying everything, including the Lockeed Martin marketing (see the technical targets and real results of F35...).
Just propaganda.

 

[Globenim]

And now America needs a new fighter to solve that F-35 problem, officials said.

Where all all the "they are just begging for more money" drones?