Is secularisation of Pakistan possible?

[truthseer]

I personally found Gandhi/Nehru certainly incompetent,Gandhi may have been a good man,a positive image but nothing more.

You know, if Nehru had agreed to the Fourteen points, there would have been no partition. And none of them were actually harmful, it was just plain arrogance to reject them

 

[Subramanian]

Suhrawardy was the culprit for sure. he did start hartal in Calcutta. Who can deny that?

But his hartal was few hours long. What happened after than and the role of Congress in Calcutta and Bihar should not be ignored either.

Still the direct action thingy was a local issue back then as Suhrawardy was in minority. He was not hailed as a hero in Muslim majority areas for starting the stupid hartal.

No one picked up and axe.

Even when 10000s of Biharis were butchered by the followers of Gandhi, the only reaction was in E. Bengal and not for the Bihari killings, but the killings of Bengalis in Calcutta.

Thus your assertions and lumping of Sept 1946 to Punjab violence in 1947 is incorrect.

peace.

There was real violence man and btw,Congress did not fight back,it was the local Hindu merchants who hired some kinda untrained mercenaries and fought back,

why Biharis were killed? I dont know.

it could be that Biharis were at the forefront of things(They always are) in a hit and run situation and they bore the brunt of it.

I am connecting this to Punjab was because that was the first time there were signs of actual civil war,

I know accounts of how the servants/workers of the house/farm turning violent suddenly against the owners all of a sudden and families getting slaughtered.

It did not happen overnight and it was a political collusion and especially in Punjab where everyone was Praah-Praah.

 

[DRaisinHerald]

Majority of bomb explosions, and AK-47 attacks in Pakistan has a root in Saudi-Mullah or Irani-Ayatullah,.
The day we truly become independent of the Mullah-Ayatullah cabal, we will be A-OK.

Lol, from the Wahhabi to Mullah Ayatollah fever You guys need to stop blaming irrelevant people; the clergy can preach whatever they preach, it's the common man which shouldn't follow them. And here's where education kicks in.

As a general rule of thumb don't follow anyone that says 'go kill so and so' and 'so and so are the devils and scums of humanity'.

 

[Subramanian]

You know, if Nehru had agreed to the Fourteen points, there would have been no partition. And none of them were actually harmful, it was just plain arrogance to reject them

It was not arrogance man,there would have been a civil war.

There were many difference of opinions also,there would have been a civil war and we would have been like a country in Africa.

Many people say Nehru wanted to be PM,instead of Jinnah who would have been.

Well,the distrust had reached such levels, there was no point of return.

 

[truthseer]

Pakistan has a root in Saudi-Mullah or Irani-Ayatullah,.

I think it has a root in the fact that we have to find someone to blame instead of fixing the problem. For example, any financial problems, we'll rant about EVIL INDIA without seeing that the problem's still there

It was not arrogance man,there would have been a civil war.

There were many difference of opinions also,there would have been a civil war and we would have been like a country in Africa.

Many people say Nehru wanted to be PM,instead of Jinnah who would have been.

Well,the distrust had reached such levels, there was no point of return.

During 1929, it had not and it would have defused forever since those were Muslim demands. That is why Muslims were agreeing to Cabinet Mission Plan and that had no Pakistan

 

[DRaisinHerald]

For example, any financial problems, we'll rant about EVIL INDIA without seeing that the problem's still there

No we don't blame India for such things; it's rather their habit to blame the ISI for everything that goes wrong in India

Anyways that is off topic

 

[Armstrong]

Education and teaching tolerance is the key, not a syncretic Islam.

Allow enough Islam into politics to protect the heritage and people who want to practice it (so that things like banning the headscarf to become 'modern' don't happen); and enough secularism into politics to ensure idiots, extremist Mullahs and whatever don't have a strong hold/monopoly over political affairs; and to ensure stuff like bigotry are wiped out for good.

We can't do away with Islam just like that to join the 'system' as someone called it before; but we certainly can protect both the majority and minorities rights if we try hard.

I'm not a 'Secularist' ! As a Muslim and a die-hard fan of Jinnah and Iqbal, I do aspire for something higher but if Pakistan were to become a Secular state...I wouldn't loose much sleep over it either ! For we are, in my humble opinion, far from being proper Muslims and if doing away with religion in politics to curb the use and abuse of both religion and governance is something that will bring us closer to the goal where a couple of generations down the lane the People are sensible and tolerant enough to sit in the Parliament and Reform our archaic rulings and perceptions about Islam...I'd think it would be a step in the right direction ! However the downside of it could be that we, as a society, would have regressed so much from any 'Islam' that the 'Reformation' would not be needed any more and so I, when I would have voted for a 'Secular Pakistan', would have done immeasurable damage to Jinnah and Iqbal's, as I interpreted it to be, concept of what a 'Modern Muslim State' would be ! And that is a conundrum that I cannot solve right now so I usually don't engage in these discussions !

 

[Subramanian]

Allama Iqbal,Ch.Rehmat Ali were all already discussin TNT, so Jinnah was a late entrant and advocate of this.

The seed was thrown long back.

 

[truthseer]

No we don't blame India for such things; it's rather their habit to blame the ISI for everything that goes wrong in India

I just gave a Pakistan Studies paper today and all I had to write was how evil India is. The same initial problems exist today and we still blame India. You know, if in 60 years, we'd have tried to solve them, we'd be a lot better right now

Allama Iqbal,Ch.Rehmat Ali were all already discussin TNT, so Jinnah was a late entrant and advocate of this.

The seed was thrown long back.

Rejection of 14 points let to Allahabad address. Had they been accepted, none of it would have happened. Quite simply, it was Nehru's arrogance at rejecting them

 

[FaujHistorian]

There was real violence man and btw,Congress did not fight back,it was the local Hindu merchants who hired some kinda untrained mercenaries and fought back,

why Biharis were killed? I dont know.

There is truth to your first statement. Yes the Hindu merchants knew that Sept 16 is the DA day. So they stockpiled weapons and hired goons to face off Suhrawardy.

Congress knew about this too and So did ML.

However the pogroms in Bihar were carried out on behest of Congress. and Congress had advanced prep in order to teach those innocent Muslims the true power of Indian Congress. When people asked Gandhi why are you sitting in Calcutta while 1000s are being killed in Bihar, he callously replied "Bihar people do not listen to me".

Many Muslim bengalis got killed in Calcutta while Gandhi was still there. one of the result of merciless killings of innocent Hindus in Khulna (and smaller number in Dhaka).

On your second point about Punjab,

It was movie Gandhi that linked DA day and Punjab. Because it was a movie to reflect Indian sarkari school history.

So please do not get caught in Gandhi movie. You gotta study more to figure out what happened in Punjab. and simply do not link it to other events. Movies are seldom the true source of history especially the feature films.

Thank you

 

[Armstrong]

I just gave a Pakistan Studies paper today and all I had to write was how evil India is. The same initial problems exist today and we still blame India. You know, if in 60 years, we'd have tried to solve them, we'd be a lot better right now

O'levels or Matriculation ? Because if its the former; I found my Pakistan Studies to be fairly well balanced and un-biased if a bit light on the extensivity of it !

 

[DRaisinHerald]

I'm not a 'Secularist' !

I don't know how weird this sounds but....:

"Protect the girl that wants to wear the headscarf; and protect the girl that does not want to wear it"

While ideologically a proper Islamic country would be free from bigots and proper Islam would be practised and all minorities would be state protected and free to practise what ever they wish as long as it doesn't interfere with the State or cause corruption; however this is very hard simply because we seem to have not many sane people with proper Islamic knowledge and chances we muck up are very high, so it's not really happening.

That's why I say a mixture of both Islamic and Secularism should be implemented; because honestly this mix is probably closer to the true Islam and not a bigoted version which we risk falling into.

Full secularism, on the other hand, for most obvious reasons, can't be implemented.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Allama Iqbal,Ch.Rehmat Ali were all already discussin TNT, so Jinnah was a late entrant and advocate of this.

The seed was thrown long back.

Yes this is what the sarkari school history books say.

The reality is that the true proponent of TNT was none other than Congress leader named Lala Lajpat Rai. His 1922 letter to the Bengali leader C. R. Das was the first on this subject.

Iqbal and Rehmat were late to the game too.


Peace.

 

[Armstrong]

I don't know how weird this sounds but....:

"Protect the girl that wants to wear the headscarf; and protect the girl that does not want to wear it"

While ideologically a proper Islamic country would be free from bigots and proper Islam would be practised and all minorities would be state protected and free to practise what ever they wish as long as it doesn't interfere with the State or cause corruption; however this is very hard simply because we seem to have not many sane people with proper Islamic knowledge and chances are we muck up as very high, so it's not really happening.

That's why I say a mixture of both Islamic and Secularism should be implemented; because honestly this mix is probably closer to the true Islam and not the bigoted version.
Full secularism, on the other hand, for most obvious reasons, can't be implemented.

Thats why I said a 'Syncretism of Islam and Secularism' ! Not a syncretic Islam...remember we're Wahabis !

 

[DRaisinHerald]

Thats why I said a 'Syncretism of Islam and Secularism' !

Syncretic sounds sort of off, but I get it