Is Rifled gun on Arjun tank a mistake?

[Omega007]

If rifled gun is generating same amount of power that of Smoothbore, then rifled gun must be heavy compare to smoothbore. Can also give me wieght of L 52 ? There is a little correction maximum Muzzle velocity is 1800m/s for L55.

This is root of problem you have to work around every ammo of international standard. But you can not deny the fact that L55 or l44 is superior gun , can you ? Arjun is only tank which uses Rifled gun apart from challenger 2 of which is also moving towards smoothbore.

The official website of ARDE doesn't mention the weight of the L52.

NO.As per official web site,the Rheinmetall L55 has mussel velocity of 1750 meter/sec when using DM 53 rounds.

As I stated,the rifled gun is really a maintainance and logistical problem and ARDE L52 is no exception.

Well,it depends.The ARDE L52 is much more durable and can sustain greater chamber pressure where as Rheinmetall L55/L44 has much greater longevity,simpler to produce and operate and rounds are simpler to make.So both designes have got edge over each other.But YEAH,over all the Rheinmetall L55 is a better system when compared to ARDE L52.But here you have to also remember that Rheinmetall has much greater experience than any Indian developper and the L55 gun is also newer system than ARDE L52.

 

[Yaduveer]

If thats true then for FMBT we should built a smooth bore also then drdo should test both of them and find out which will be better for IA. But firstly, is there a source to confirm what you are saying because Challenger 2 has a very powerful gun.

Source ? Look at this image i have already posted ... Challenger 2 with 120mm L 55 smoothbore main gun... Test is being conducted.

 

[PRINCE_THE_SHOWSTOPPER]

please can anyone clarify me what is the difference between a smoothbore gun and a rifled gun??? which is better and why???

 

[Omega007]

I don't know why so much fuss about maximum muzzle velocity.
Would like to Remind here that KE penetrators like the D53/63 or M829A3/A4 don't fire at maximum muzzle velocity... rather they are just a little more than half of it in case of American M829A3.

SORRY but I couldn't get your point.Can you PLEASE clarify a bit.
THANX. . . . . . .

 

[Yaduveer]

please can anyone clarify me what is the difference between a smoothbore gun and a rifled gun??? which is better and why???

Difference is same as Rifle and shotgun(Dunali bankdook ). Rifle has groves which impart spin to the round but Smoothbore do not have groves. By Spining a round , we get more accuracy and range but In larger guns like Tanks main gun , do not need to spin to attain stability of round. Tank Round has 'fins' which gives stability in the flight for longer range and accuracy.

 

[Yaduveer]

I don't know why so much fuss about maximum muzzle velocity.
Would like to Remind here that KE penetrators like the D53/63 or M829A3/A4 don't fire at maximum muzzle velocity... rather they are just a little more than half of it in case of American M829A3.

Same round in rifled bore has less muzzle velocity than smoothbore. So it is the fuss. Kinetic energy is proportional to square of muzzle velocity. This creates a fuss.

 

[Omega007]

And while Mr Jarha told you the difference between two systems let me tell you which one is better.
Now for a small arm,where the length:diameter ratio of the projectile is urually less than 8:1,the rifled ones are better as the spin imparted by grooves of the rifled barrel give the projectile stabilisation and long distance accuracy over smooth barrel ones like shot guns which are very inaccurate and has less range than a rifled gun with equivalent barrel length.
But modern anti tank guns fire FSAPDS rounds which have penetrator with length:diameter ratio is far higher like 30-38:1.In that case,spin can't stabilise the rod,instead it makes the rod to wobble and even twist to breaking point affecting its range and accuracy.So fins are used to stabilise those penetrators just like fins on arrows.
So as we can see,rifling is not needed to stabilise a FSAPDS round.Besides,making rifled barrels and ammunition for them are harder to produce and rifled barrels wear out much more frequently than smooth barrels.So rifled barrels are needed to be changed more frequently.

So,for anti tank guns,smooth barrels are better than their rifled counter parts.

Same round in rifled bore has less muzzle velocity than smoothbore. So it is the fuss. Kinetic energy is proportional to square of muzzle velocity. This creates a fuss.

Well,vellocity is not the most imporatnt thing.The M 829A3 has mussel velocity of 1550 meter/sec where as the DM 53 is about 200 meter/sec faster.Yet the M 829A3 has greater armour penetration capability.

 

[Yaduveer]

Well,vellocity is not the most imporatnt thing.The M 829A3 has mussel velocity of 1550 meter/sec where as the DM 53 is about 200 meter/sec faster.Yet the M 829A3 has greater armour penetration capability.

True , They are other factors like Density of Anti-armour rod(Depleted uranium is 68% more denser than Lead),Mass of the rod.But velocity is the major factor that you can't deny.

 

[ptltejas]

What is reason that HESH could not be fired from smooth bore as a rule?

 

[Omega007]

What is reason that HESH could not be fired from smooth bore as a rule?

There is no reason at all.Let me clear it for you.
HESH rounds are much wider than FSAPDS penetrator rods;this again brings the length:diameter ratio at less than 8:1.HESH rounds are being used from WW2 when every tank gun was rifled,they stabilise the round through spin.
But that doesn't mean that HESH rounds can't be fired from smooth barrel guns.In this case one can use grooves over the outer surface of the projectile so that he can spin the round when fired from a smoothbore gun.
Wait!!Who even needs spin??One can fit the HESH rounds with fins just like HEAT rounds.That will do the trick.
So as you can see,there is many possibilities one may explore.

 

[Omega007]

True , They are other factors like Density of Anti-armour rod(Depleted uranium is 68% more denser than Lead),Mass of the rod.But velocity is the major factor that you can't deny.

Well,I'm not denying that either.I just told that Vellocity is one of the important factors but not the most important!!The materials used and shape of the penetrator are also important.You see........my friend,the DM 63 is fired at lower chamber pressure and mussel vellocity than DM 53 but both achieve same level of armor penetration yet they both are Tu rounds!!It's the improved shaping of DM 63 (Germans are replacing DM 53 because its propelant is repeatedly wearing out the barrels as per reports).
Actually,I too am all for smoothbore guns.I was praising the particular ARDE L52 model due to its sheer durability (I don't like the ROF L30 of Challenger Mk2,it can only sustain 600-620 mPa chamber pressure).If the ARDE can develop a smoothbore gun of same capability as the current L52,I would be the happiest person..... . . . . . . . . .

 

[ptltejas]

There is no reason at all.Let me clear it for you.
HESH rounds are much wider than FSAPDS penetrator rods;this again brings the length:diameter ratio at less than 8:1.HESH rounds are being used from WW2 when every tank gun was rifled,they stabilise the round through spin.
But that doesn't mean that HESH rounds can't be fired from smooth barrel guns.In this case one can use grooves over the outer surface of the projectile so that he can spin the round when fired from a smoothbore gun.
Wait!!Who even needs spin??One can fit the HESH rounds with fins just like HEAT rounds.That will do the trick.
So as you can see,there is many possibilities one may explore.

Roger. Just move to smooth bore.

 

[India defense]

Looking at the best war-fighting MBT in the world i would say there must be a reason why its the best, why its gun is liked by everyone.

From Engineering point of view of course one might say Leopard 2 is also very good but if we see the actual war statistics, Challenger 2 has proven itself in the last decade.

I heard that Venezuela is interested buying these babies

 

[PRINCE_THE_SHOWSTOPPER]

Roger. Just move to smooth bore.

i have heard that DRDO is developing the smoothbore gun to be incorporated into the Karan MBT(popularly known as the FMBT) but not in arjun 2.But i need clarification about the loader.in the arjun we use the russian type loader which is manual.The world has moved to automatic loader.is that why we need 4 crew compared to its counterparts like Type 99 which does with 3???

 

[ptltejas]

i have heard that DRDO is developing the smoothbore gun to be incorporated into the Karan MBT(popularly known as the FMBT) but not in arjun 2.But i need clarification about the loader.in the arjun we use the russian type loader which is manual.The world has moved to automatic loader.is that why we need 4 crew compared to its counterparts like Type 99 which does with 3???

Great to know. I saw a Discovery programme where only 2 persons working in US future light weight tank. I yet want Nimrod like number of missiles on tank without terate only with missile tubes. If 50 missiles can keep on it as it has more than 36 km range may destroy enemy rapidly and destroy them in numbers. We have also not sky defence system like phlanx block B where gatling guns like ship an be kept on truck which destroy all top shell projectiles missiles rockets and mortars.

It can save battlefoeld from all rockets shells projectjles mortars etc. And also cheap compare to missiles. Can also be kept on all military buildings and airports near border. And also near refinaries and arms stock etc.

Just think so.