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Is Pakistan ready for change?

Please be more focussed on Chinise and rest of South Eastern countries, Malaysia,INDONESIA AND other South Asian Ecominic ROLE growth models, the best from each could be blended together, to cater and tairored to be suitable for your needs.
U.K IS A COMPLETELY STORY,I spent nearly nearly nine yeasr of my prime life there
.One of my daily job was monitiring all thier daily newspaper summarise the reports, in three three catogeries, Political,Economic affairs and International relations,etc..Their pattern is suitable for Europe and other Western countries, unlike the ASIAN reigon..

What is the need of the HOUR?

1. A compelling National Narrative which breaks free from artifical stories that emerge in the early 80's...

2. Reclaiming your 7000+ years Heritage... (not just IVC... you go way back!!!)

3. 5 Five Years Plans executed by the Professionals of the Pak State...with credit taken by the political classes...regardless which political party rules.

4. Immediate introduction of the Population Act i.e. max two childeren.

5. A Pakistan National Economic Model.

6. Equal rights for women and their full participation in economy.

:smitten::dance3::yahoo::smitten::nana:
 
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ASIAN reigon..
Incorrect. Asia is as diseparate as to make it just a name. Tell me what unites Turkey to North Korea, or Syria to Vietnam? UK has played significant role in making of Pakistan. Don't underplay that influence. Note we are on PDF. Which language are we using? Malay?

Going back to the thrust of this thread Pakistan should focus on synergy with Chinese economy. Then when take off happens to build linkages with westerly neighbours like Afghanistan, Iran, Turkey and Central Asia and sail using the gale force winds emanating from China.

2. Reclaiming your 7000+ years Heritage... (not just IVC... you go way back!!!)
100% right there.
 
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There is no free market without free movement of people. If you put bar on one there are supposed to be bar on the other. This is fairplay. How many western countries practice this? None. Even among themselves for a long period.
Every country that boosts of human quality growth and social indices went through dirty phase. Even Thatcher's UK is labelled as dark part of UK history eventhough it brought the UK economy the jolt to revive. Even as I write many will lose jobs in TATA steel Port Talbot Wales UK but their gov has already started with plans to re hablitate them. Could it have happened in Thatcher's UK. No! They could afford this luxury but now they can. Mao's China was very different from the one today. Does anyone remember the purge? No they remember the awakening dragon. You get dirty before you can clean yourself. Nations are build on tears, blood and sweat not by people day dreaming and in utopia. Nationalism and conformity to a well thought plan against everything else is what Pakistan need.
If we start listening to sissy whimperings and pussy footing of every tom, dick and harry who does not comprehend the price of freedom and dignified living, we might as well forget the pursuit of greatness and become another Thailand. A country to pacify blindly every western whim and aspiration both literally and metaphorically!
 
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This follows from another thread > https://defence.pk/threads/can-pak-ban-china.454561/

UK 1979.

Telephone company
. Public ownership. Cost to make calls exorbitant. To get a line you had to wait 3 months. To pay the bill you had to stand in a long queue.Service was terrible. You paid over the top and the customer after being fleeced had to say thank you.

Electricy company
. Public ownership. As a kid in 1970s I remember doing my homework using candles to light my bedroom. The problem was the public electric corporations were required to buy coal for power generation from another monopoly. No coal and no lights.

British Coal. Public ownership. 100,000s of working class people worked in public coal mines. Entire towns called "pit towns" depended on the miners. Every third man in these town was a miner. Generations before them since the industrial age began had worked in these pit towns. The mines had long ago stopped being efficient. Too much manpower working well below efficiency but with jobs guranteed, lack of modern technology, working seams that long ago had become uneconomical made the coal twice more expensive than external market. The miners would go on strike regularly decreasing the pathetic productivity even further. The consumer suffered and government bailed out the billions lost of every year.

British Leyland Cars. Public ownership.Cars like Austin Montego, Allegro were byword for poor build quality, rusting within year of purchase, expensive. BLC employed 100,000 of workers in Birmingham most of who sat around fiddling their fingers or having tea and smoking breaks. Again customer being punished with terrible product and government dishing out billions to cover the lost making concerns.

This pattern subsisted across the economy. Millions of people working below par, producing below par prodocts at prices that were too high. The customer suffered with terible choice of product and government suffered billions in having to cover the loss making concerns. The problem was protectionism, too much regulation, too many restrictions. This created a closed off economy that was simply uncompetitive in the world. How was this sustained? By borrowing. UK even had to go to IMF for loans to keep it going from bankrupt as the economy was bleeding the country dry.

May 1979. Margaret Thatcher becomes PM. She sets about restructuring the British economy. To put it bluntly she declares that no protection will be afforded to any part of the economy. The door will open to full competition. Anything that is not able to compete will be allowed to die. The fittest will survive and will grow stronger and faster.

United Kingdom went through profound change. Suddenly all electric companies were privatized. They then sacked excess workers. They went from being fat cows to lean mean athletes. They could buy coal from any source which meant they scoured the world to get imported coal at 40% that British Coal sold it at. The coal industry died overnight. Million plus miners became unemployed. Entite pit towns died and turned into ghost towns. As competition killed 70% of the economic concerns it led to mass unemployment. There was mass civil disorder leading to almost civil war. Entire cities were almost laid to waste.

For example Sheffield went from one of the largest steel producers to seeing most of the mills close down. PM Margaret Thatcher faced incredible pressure to change her policy of "open free trade and competion". By early 1980s almost 25% of the labour force had become reduandant or semi employed as company after company went bankrupt. Facing millions of unemployed workers fighting broke out. Thatcher faced pressure from her ministers to change course. This is what was happening across the country.


There was war on the streets. The police fought running battles with umemployed miners and other works who opposed the opening up of the economy as they knew it would mean their jobs would go. With her ministers starting to weaken in their resolve top open the UK economy PM Thatcher showed what true leadership means, This is when she gave this "this lady does no U-turns" in reply to the advice her ministers gave to change her policy. She persisted.

She then moved to British Airways which like PIA was losing money every year. It was privatized and 80% of workers sacked to turn the company into world winner it is today. The result of this was lie moving all the weeds and then allowing the fresh green healthy saplings take route. Thatcher concentrated on creating a open level playing field where only the fittest would surive. Efficiency, innovation and competiveness was the new mantra. Nothing was holy. If it was not fit it died.

This led to new generation of entreprenuers who took advantage of the new openess to build new companies and compete with the best in the world.


This is exactly what Pakistan needs to do. In those days all the strikers used to complain about Australian Coal, Japanese, German Car manfacturers, South Korean TV manufactuers. The truth was it was not their fault. The fault was within UK which could not compet with them.

Today Pakistan can complain about Chinese imporets or open up and join in the race to be best. Out of it will come a new breed of companies and businessmen who will stand o their feet and compete with the world. Or are people worried that Pakistani's can't compete with the world? Yes, in the short term like UK in 1980s it will suffer but from the other end will come a new rejuvenated country and economy. Pakistan needs to grab the Dragon by the tail, learn from it and outrun it.

Has Pakistan got what it takes? I certainly think so.

@Desert Fox @Chinese-Dragon @AndrewJin @Sinopakfriend


Sir you are comparing apple with oranges ..Sir this is only one side of the coin ....

Is our business sector is mature enough to compete ? Do we have such enterprenuers that can fight the external business ... There are issues of economies of scale ...

I agree that we have to open up but only in planned mode ... We have to create skilled and semi skilled work force ... Have to go from industry to industry ... Have to create dedicated cities ... From example there is wonderful opportunity to create a hub for electrical goods in balochistan but for that you have to create all upstream and down stream industries in the region ... If you dont do that you will losing up industries and have to export raw ore of copper at cheap rate and resultant will be unemplyment ...

There r lot of differences in pak and UK ... Uk is country of skiled labor ... They were financial and insurance hub of tbe world ... There masses were educated ... We dont have any of these ... So yes open up the market but only kn planned and sustained way ...
 
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Incorrect. Asia is as diseparate as to make it just a name. Tell me what unites Turkey to North Korea, or Syria to Vietnam? UK has played significant role in making of Pakistan. Don't underplay that influence. Note we are on PDF. Which language are we using? Malay?

Going back to the thrust of this thread Pakistan should focus on synergy with Chinese economy. Then when take off happens to build linkages with westerly neighbours like Afghanistan, Iran, Turkey and Central Asia and sail using the gale force winds emanating from China.

100% right there.

TURKEY DOES NOT FALL IN THE SOUTH ASIA , AND EAST ASIA+CHINA, WHILE NORTH KOREA IS IN FAR EAST REGION. SYRIA IS IN MIDDLE EASTERN AND VIETNAM ALSO THE LAST END OF EAST ASIA,.
 
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Is internet so slow in USA that you have not heard that Thatcher has been dead for few years now?

People with P-Negative blood will only come up with one liner sadistic comment to get few brownie points.

In fact, I do pitty such sadistic people, migrated to US, spending 10-12 hours a day on PDF, reading all the posts about Pakistan to find some where we are discussing something serious and come up with a one liner to inflame the situation.


Life must be miserable in the USA to go through all this trouble. So I think best would be to ignore all these "Tarek Fateh, and Hussain Haqqanis".

Anyway, back to you original post and topic of the thread very interesting point!
 
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you are comparing apple with oranges
No two examp[les are ever going to be same. The thrust of my post was that opening up is frought with problems, potential chaos but you must change/adapt or you will perish. If you don't change nature will cull you. That principle applies to first world country like UK or third world country like Pakistan. We all breath the same air.

As regards controlled change - or giving time. I have no hope. Do you really, really think that rackeaters in Pakistan going as "businessmen" will allow any change? Take a look at PIA do you think anybody has the galls to change it. Do you really think PIA staff are going to agree to slow change so they can get ready to compete. No I don't think so.

If Pakistan operated on the basis internally driven change brought about by internally thought out policies you think Pakistan would be in the mess it is in? I doubt it. Fact is we are going to have to rely on external variables to shape Pakistan - good or bad. We happen to now have one that is going to be good, even if it's effects are crushing in the short term. Pakistani leadership from day one has been ran by "circumstances shape me" rather than "I will shape Pakistan".

Hell Pakistan was even born by accident rather than by aforethought. It was law of unintended consequences that brought Pakistan into existance in 1947. We all know how Jinnah actually accepted the Cabinet Mission Plan. It was Nehru's intransigence that assured 1947. Pakistan has consistantly been a weak and fragile state that has neither the size (like India/population) or resources (like Iran/oil) to stamp it's own on the world.

We can see presently how Pakistan's Afghan policy was shaped by US. Musharaf let America into Afghanistan and then like a puppy followed them. Pakistan is still trying to chart a way in 2016 on account of 2001. 1950s-1970 was marked by trying to leverage the best out of the Cold War - which contrary to what most Pakistani's think was rather sucessfully done under President Ayub Khan.

Now it is China that offers change - although offer means in fact lack of any other choice. So it is going to be either Chinese way or the highway. That brings some exciting prospects.

TURKEY DOES NOT FALL IN THE SOUTH ASIA , AND EAST ASIA+CHINA, WHILE NORTH KOREA IS IN FAR EAST REGION. SYRIA IS IN MIDDLE EASTERN AND VIETNAM ALSO THE LAST END OF EAST ASIA,.
Who told you this? God. These are names and arranged by people, mostly defined by Europeans. If your sat in Karachi do tell me how the fcuk is Oman Midde East? It is neither east or middle from you. These are subjective rendering. As far as I am concerned the region I come from is closer to Afghanistan then Bangladesh. This all varies.

Turkey is in Asia. In fact the original name "Asia" meant Turkish coast. Then the meaning moved east. TheTurks were "Asian" far before Banglas ever were. And please stop using caps plus can we stick to thread. When I have more time to waste we can open a thread on nomenclatures and then beat it to death.
 
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@Kaptaan @coffee_cup @PaklovesTurkiye @Pakistan First @LA se Karachi @Mentee @Windjammer @MastanKhan


Friends,


Enough about beating about the bush... time for a constructive and creative discourse. Structured and systematic...


How do you wish to see your country in next 25 years?

Be concerte and practical. I shall be deeply disappointed if you go into we have no money or corruption bull...

The Questions:

1. What are the key areas of policy that need to happen to leverage CPEC phase 1 and 2?

2. How can you manage to pull off a development framework uniquely suited to your needs as sleeping and lazy CA and ME regional power?

3. When will you finally own your own Heritage that goes back longer than Sumeria?


If you don't then I have to impose myself as a vulgar guest and write it for you..which would be shame as you are inheritors of great Civilisations...

I hope you will dazzel me...please, make me fall off my chair. Thank you!

If you only knew half of your own history then no corruption or moollahs will be leading you by your noses..
 
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Pakistan needs a visionary leadership that can shake up the entire foundations of the economy
It would have to be a leader with absolute power because in Pakistan you have more problems then just the economic problems,Tatchers task was a ''piece of cake'' compared to the Pakistani situation.
I would say impossible but i hope they prove me wrong.
 
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I don't blame local industries entirely, lets face it in last decade they not only faced shortage of gas and electricity but also terrorism. Local investors are still afraid to invest and Pak have yet to resolve electricity and gas problem. Basically Pakistan lost decade of GDP growth.

Today article on dawn

“The economy is stronger today than it was when the Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz came to power in 2013,” he said.

Yet despite improvements in the country’s macro-economic indicators, security conditions and energy supply, the business community in the Punjab has been reluctant to invest in industry.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1289006/sharif-reaches-out-to-punjabs-lukewarm-business-community
 
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No two examp[les are ever going to be same. The thrust of my post was that opening up is frought with problems, potential chaos but you must change/adapt or you will perish. If you don't change nature will cull you. That principle applies to first world country like UK or third world country like Pakistan. We all breath the same air.

As regards controlled change - or giving time. I have no hope. Do you really, really think that rackeaters in Pakistan going as "businessmen" will allow any change? Take a look at PIA do you think anybody has the galls to change it. Do you really think PIA staff are going to agree to slow change so they can get ready to compete. No I don't think so.

If Pakistan operated on the basis internally driven change brought about by internally thought out policies you think Pakistan would be in the mess it is in? I doubt it. Fact is we are going to have to rely on external variables to shape Pakistan - good or bad. We happen to now have one that is going to be good, even if it's effects are crushing in the short term. Pakistani leadership from day one has been ran by "circumstances shape me" rather than "I will shape Pakistan".

Hell Pakistan was even born by accident rather than by aforethought. It was law of unintended consequences that brought Pakistan into existance in 1947. We all know how Jinnah actually accepted the Cabinet Mission Plan. It was Nehru's intransigence that assured 1947. Pakistan has consistantly been a weak and fragile state that has neither the size (like India/population) or resources (like Iran/oil) to stamp it's own on the world.

We can see presently how Pakistan's Afghan policy was shaped by US. Musharaf let America into Afghanistan and then like a puppy followed them. Pakistan is still trying to chart a way in 2016 on account of 2001. 1950s-1970 was marked by trying to leverage the best out of the Cold War - which contrary to what most Pakistani's think was rather sucessfully done under President Ayub Khan.

Now it is China that offers change - although offer means in fact lack of any other choice. So it is going to be either Chinese way or the highway. That brings some exciting prospects.

Who told you this? God. These are names and arranged by people, mostly defined by Europeans. If your sat in Karachi do tell me how the fcuk is Oman Midde East? It is neither east or middle from you. These are subjective rendering. As far as I am concerned the region I come from is closer to Afghanistan then Bangladesh. This all varies.

Turkey is in Asia. In fact the original name "Asia" meant Turkish coast. Then the meaning moved east. TheTurks were "Asian" far before Banglas ever were. And please stop using caps plus can we stick to thread. When I have more time to waste we can open a thread on nomenclatures and then beat it to death.
Sir g i agree opening up by force is the only option ... But doi g that in one go and unplanned will be disaster ... If UK is example of success of free trade then China is example of success of closed economy ... Much bigger than UK ... Much difficult to control but they did it ... But same failed in Pakistan during bhutto's erra ... whyy ? Because he did without proper planning.. Without capacity building of government institutions and politicians ...

Sir you can trust me on this one as its not just my name is accountant but i am considered as an expert in the field finance and econoics and member of one of the prime intitution of Pakistan ...

You gave example of PIA ... Do you know what was the prime source of losses of pia during inital 4 years of zardari ? It wasnt employee cost but foreign exchnage losses .. We were not hedged against our foreign currency loans .. So basically we were not competent enough ... Aircraft purchased on loan with half of the usd had to pay in double just because of mistake by a single individual cfo ...

Take an example of auto sector ... There is lot of protection to the industry still refurbished cars are cheaper ? Why ? This is because we dont have upstream industry of steel iron and hydro carbons ... If we open auto sector it will be disaster and pakistan local manufacturing will end ...

Ayub khan development was for real ... It was not product of cold era gains ... We had best infrastructure of that time .. Our textile industry our business community are all of those area ... Why all those development disappeared ? Not because of end of cold war but because of u-tufn by bhuto and nationalization just by one exscutive order .. Countires cant work like this that yyou just check which is most famous formula working for others and yyou i.plement it in your country ... You have to do much hard work ...

Well i can debate on this for hours ... as this is my homeground

I am only tryying to say that opening of economy is desired but Pakistan which is very densely populated and cant survive without manufacturing ... We have to develop our manufacturing sector provide them initial support and then open up ....

If you are really interested in improvement of economy try to some research on israel economyy ... Venture capital ... It will be a perfect solution for pakistan

@Kaptaan @coffee_cup @PaklovesTurkiye @Pakistan First @LA se Karachi @Mentee @Windjammer @MastanKhan


Friends,


Enough about beating about the bush... time for a constructive and creative discourse. Structured and systematic...


How do you wish to see your country in next 25 years?

Be concerte and practical. I shall be deeply disappointed if you go into we have no money or corruption bull...

The Questions:

1. What are the key areas of policy that need to happen to leverage CPEC phase 1 and 2?

2. How can you manage to pull off a development framework uniquely suited to your needs as sleeping and lazy CA and ME regional power?

3. When will you finally own your own Heritage that goes back longer than Sumeria?


If you don't then I have to impose myself as a vulgar guest and write it for you..which would be shame as you are inheritors of great Civilisations...

I hope you will dazzel me...please, make me fall off my chair. Thank you!

If you only knew half of your own history then no corruption or moollahs will be leading you by your noses..
Nice questions ... My answer woukd be as follows:

1: cpec is nothing but a trade route for china ... China is second largest economy and there is a surge in standard of living of chinese so basically they want to shift from low profit industry to high profit industry to cater i crease in living standard of chinese people ... So basicallyy we can got those business kn Pakistan ... For example packaging.. Labor intensive assembly and toll manufacturing ... Another area where pakistan can focus is to provide semi finished products to china .. For example we have lots of coper ... Instead of selljng them coper ore we can sell them refned ore even semi finished electrical items as per their need .. We can also focus on goods they are planning to import via cpes and we can plan if we can process them through transit

2: we have shortage of capital and skilled labour ... For capital we should estalish investmeng houses and ventrure capital .. Venture capital firms are group of management experts who arrange funds from investors and sstart new business or revjve sick jndustrh after making them run on profits in 3 to 4 years they sell its management with more than double profit .. As these individuals are highly professional and skilled therefore success of new startup are are almost guaranteed .. This model was followed by israel successfully ... For skilled workforce we have to invest beavilh on education and have to develop special jniversities with special economic zones... each zone should have its own set of required skill sets ... This model is being followed in germany ...
 
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@Kaptaan @coffee_cup @PaklovesTurkiye @Pakistan First @LA se Karachi @Mentee @Windjammer @MastanKhan


Friends,


Enough about beating about the bush... time for a constructive and creative discourse. Structured and systematic...


How do you wish to see your country in next 25 years?

Be concerte and practical. I shall be deeply disappointed if you go into we have no money or corruption bull...

The Questions:

1. What are the key areas of policy that need to happen to leverage CPEC phase 1 and 2?

2. How can you manage to pull off a development framework uniquely suited to your needs as sleeping and lazy CA and ME regional power?

3. When will you finally own your own Heritage that goes back longer than Sumeria?


If you don't then I have to impose myself as a vulgar guest and write it for you..which would be shame as you are inheritors of great Civilisations...

I hope you will dazzel me...please, make me fall off my chair. Thank you!

If you only knew half of your own history then no corruption or moollahs will be leading you by your noses..

Thanks for yet again a great thought provoking post bro.

I am not an economist myself, but yeah burning few grey cells on these issues will be a good opportunity to learn something new. So will educate myself and will come back to this thread with a reply, might take few days though.

But go on, bro, do share with us your wisdom, it is always a treat to read your posts!
 
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