Is Lockheed dumping F-16s on India?

[MilSpec]

I would say it would be better if IAF get some Deal with F-35 , with a custom made F-35 II lightning IAF can be the first to pitch a 5th Gen Fighter in Indo-Pak race .. when you have Tejas MK1/2 already in pipeline you have no reason to buy F-16's .. and getting them at timeline of 2025 will be when Europeans will be retiring them, PAF will also be retiring older blocks after 2025 too .. so the benefit wont be that huge as some Members here Pretend ..
and i agree with @A.P. Richelieu
@MilSpec @Nilgiri @Czar786 @SpArK whats your take on this deal ?

Great question.

IAF was obsessed with the Gnat's light nimble characteristics, it drilled the idea in it's minions, and DRDO blindly followed suit. Today as it stands, the idea to me is antiquated. As we stand now, we need to squeeze the most power projection out of the platform. Tejas from the get go should have been designed to replicate the performance characteristics and scalability of LWF platforms like F16 and F/A18, like the Gripen.

We instead wanted a mirage that would behave more like a Gnat. With the risk of sounding philosophical, it seems to deeply rooted in our culture of punching below our weight. Our great admiration of underdog triumph syndrome as with the sabre slayers, without giving a thought to how did a country 7 times smaller was able to overwhelm us platform vs platform. Our pilots were left to fend for themselves against a top notch Air Superiority fighter like F86''s with a trainer.

IAF thought it had money to splurge so it chose the Rafale, not 50 but 126 of them with an additional 72 as follow on option, without realising the fact even though India has money doesn't mean IAF will get the money. So now it's options were whether to stick to rafale and get smaller numbers, and pitch it's hopes on LCA, which has a Ghar ki Murgi Daal Barabar situation.

F16 as a LWF platform in it's current avatar, F16IN without it's political strings would have made the best choice for IAF's requirements for Range, Payload, Agility, scalability as well as it's impressive weapons package. The only problem is system control and weapons integration .

If it was up to me, I would much rather wait for LCA mk2 with what ever redesign was desired from IAF, rather than implementing a front-line American system. I would be extremely disappointed if F16 was bought and restricted to NATO weaponry. If anything this was a wasted opportunity for the Dassault, all this could have been their's only if they weren't so French in their dealings.

 

[Hellfire]

There you go again, getting yourself all muddled up in catch 22 position... irony you keep repeating post ~22....well this is what i said in that post not what you keep on. blabbering.


As for the tone in the Indian pilots headset....
let me put you out of your misery with a somewhat similar incident that occurred during the Kargil conflict.

F/L Gaurav Chibber incident - The true story

Armed with four AA-10 and two Magic-2 [or probably AA-11] missiles, Gaurav Chibber a MiG-29 pilot acquired a lock on at two PAF F-16As orbiting over Skardu. The F-16s at once repeated their drill of engine to idle thrust, deploying a cloud of chaff and dropping down from 20,000ft to 500ft AGL with AA Radar on standby mode. Gaurav Chibber must have had a wry smile on his face under his helmet when he lost the lock-on. Angry with the avionics Gaurav again searched for the Vipers when he felt that the avionics of his aircraft had jammed. Gaurav tried all methods and probably had his A/A Radar functional again when he saw no sign of any aircraft in his radar. He felt something suspicious and decided to move out. As he started his way back to the base he saw two tracks appearing suddenly on his A/A Radar from behind. He quickly took evasive action but was relieved that he is well inside his territory and the tracks turned back in Pakistan.
As fate would have it, F/L Gaurav Chibber met his end when the Mig-29 ,he was flying crashed in Bilaspur distric of Himachal Pardesh on August 6, 1999.

Flight Lieutenant Gaurav Chibber

Service No 22926 Branch F(P)

Name : Gaurav Chibber Rank Flight Lieutenant
Date of Birth:
Date Commissioned 18 Jun 94 (153 Course) Service End Died in Service 06 Aug 99

Awards and Decorations
Number of Awards: 1

Vayu Sena Medal (Gallantry)
Flt Lt Gaurav Chibber 22926 F(P) Award Date Announced 15 Aug 99
Details :
229 Sqn MiG-29 For CAP and escort missions

Unit : 223 Squadron

Off topic - Kargil/Cricket ... why do you feel the need to get off onto a tangent. I am very specifically quoting your claim of JF-17 on an aircraft which does not fly in LC region. Simple.

Again. let us come back to your original claims elaborate on that please .. how do you know what the non-existent pilot of the non-existent MKI heard or did not?

Let me illustrate with an example.

Have you flown in the so called chicken neck area? If you have, then you would be knowing that every time even an IAF transport AC goes (or reverse, say PAF transport), it gets the warning beeps from Tarang (RWR) fitted onto the platforms. They keep beeping as it traverses due East of Akhnoor in Northern direction and reverse. That is because the things work and detect your LRTR.(extrapolate the example to your movements into Skardu.

Similarly, both sides have multiple 'locks' on each other's aircraft and RWRs duly give the warning to respective pilots. That is what the RWR is supposed to do.

So, in an era wherein both sides have BVR capabilities backed by long range RADARs on both ACs and LRTRs located well within the respective air space, is it surprising or an achievement of even a lock, in an environment of zero hostility?

Or perhaps you are hinting that PAF is suddenly so unprofessional so as to strike the 'locked' aircraft flying within it's own airspace without any declaration of war, from well within it's own airspace? (I severely doubt that can be true, knowing the armed forces of Pakistan are professional and not a rag tag bunch of jokers playing soldiers)

My 'nit picking' as you so called it earlier, is precisely on this aspect of your post.

Precisely as you have pointed out to your posts numbers .... one would have expected a matured response from you by now, instead of a highly kiddish post as 'loud tone' by JF-17 to a platform which, I repeat, is not deployed in the region of LC as it is not it's role.

I normally ignore your posts like these, but at times you do need to take a step back and review what you are posting

Anyways, my last words on this boring topic.

Cheers and Ta!

 

[Windjammer]

Off topic - Kargil/Cricket ... why do you feel the need to get off onto a tangent. I am very specifically quoting your claim of JF-17 on an aircraft which does not fly in LC region. Simple.

Again. let us come back to your original claims elaborate on that please .. how do you know what the non-existent pilot of the non-existent MKI heard or did not?

Let me illustrate with an example.

Have you flown in the so called chicken neck area? If you have, then you would be knowing that every time even an IAF transport AC goes (or reverse, say PAF transport), it gets the warning beeps from Tarang (RWR) fitted onto the platforms. They keep beeping as it traverses due East of Akhnoor in Northern direction and reverse. That is because the things work and detect your LRTR.(extrapolate the example to your movements into Skardu.

Similarly, both sides have multiple 'locks' on each other's aircraft and RWRs duly give the warning to respective pilots. That is what the RWR is supposed to do.

So, in an era wherein both sides have BVR capabilities backed by long range RADARs on both ACs and LRTRs located well within the respective air space, is it surprising or an achievement of even a lock, in an environment of zero hostility?

Or perhaps you are hinting that PAF is suddenly so unprofessional so as to strike the 'locked' aircraft flying within it's own airspace without any declaration of war, from well within it's own airspace? (I severely doubt that can be true, knowing the armed forces of Pakistan are professional and not a rag tag bunch of jokers playing soldiers)

My 'nit picking' as you so called it earlier, is precisely on this aspect of your post.

Precisely as you have pointed out to your posts numbers .... one would have expected a matured response from you by now, instead of a highly kiddish post as 'loud tone' by JF-17 to a platform which, I repeat, is not deployed in the region of LC as it is not it's role.

I normally ignore your posts like these, but at times you do need to take a step back and review what you are posting

Anyways, my last words on this boring topic.

Cheers and Ta!

Read the highlighted, this is exactly what the IAF was claiming during the Kargil conflict and even awarded the alleged IAF pilot namely Flight Lieutenant Gaurav Chibber, i have posted his details above for your heart's content.
Well, something similar happened during recent flare up on the LOC....with IAF on the recieving end.
When there are hostilities, both air forces play cat and mouse unlike the troops on ground who fire live rounds and kill each other.

 

[Shane]

For the bold part: Pray do compare the dates of joining of both members

Slowly, goalposts are being created and established by you and shifted by you in your own assessment. For me it remains the interesting post at #22 by you. That was the only aspect that drew my attention here.

I am merely asking you to source your claim at #22 and how exactly you know that the MKI pilot heard the "loud & sustained tone"

Waiting for that. I have exceeded the number of posts I make in a month in PDF right now



It is only on the forums that the world is stuck on Information Warfare (knowing information that was previously guarded is one step of the same). The world has moved to information denial. So, even knowing about a platform does not translate into knowing it's tasks/employment doctrines as per individual user etc.

War fighting is not limited to knowing a platform or having the most sophisticated platform, but of using it correctly and effectively. It is, at the end of the day, the quantum of force that can be applied at a point, that achieves a breakthrough in an enemy defended battlespace.

Rest of your post is a waste of thought processes. There is no 'doctrine of hatred' which guides the threat assessment by either India or by Pakistan or China. First of all, if you want to be a serious member here and not join the overwhelming trolls, get this straightened out. Armed Forces across all three nations are highly professional. The amount of crap that members post here, makes them the target of that crap itself, as shortly they start believing it themselves.

You will be hard pressed to find any PA or PAF member here in PDF, indulging in such posts or even on Indian side, any one who has served in forces, posting crap like that around to demean the forces, even of their enemy

As for LCA, it is a project. Not an aircraft. It will be coming in to shore up the number of aircrafts India goes in for in terms of SE. The TEs will cover the heavier pay loads needed, while SE will cater to point defence/interdictory roles. predominantly.

64 squadron airforce is envisaged in 2 decades, and majority of IAF will need replacement by end of next 10 years.




@Shane

This post perfectly sums up the numbers you may see under Project LCA. Please differentiate Tejas from LCA, the former is a part of LCA while the latter is a project on a 'going concern' principle.

Hi there keyboard warrior, I have tried very hard to keep myself from dosing off long enough to be able to write this so please read carefully before you open your next burst of keys.

Please don't contradict yourself any further, you claim that you are bored! Believe me, we all are. Stop posting these childish replies, rather post something informative and interesting and have some mercy on us poor Pakistanis.

 

[YeBeWarned]

If it was up to me, I would much rather wait for LCA mk2 with what ever redesign was desired from IAF, rather than implementing a front-line American system. I would be extremely disappointed if F16 was bought and restricted to NATO weaponry. If anything this was a wasted opportunity for the Dassault, all this could have been their's only if they weren't so French in their dealings.

This would be a very Valid Concern for IAF, and it is very likely that American will not let Indians integrate Russian systems on their F-16's , Plus the same concern US shows to us that Russians may not get their hands on F-16 block 70 technology which will also restrict Russian access to some Bases which f-16 will be Operating , its a stretch but could happen i can expect anything from Americans .. And not just Dassault also Gripen in some respect , they tried very hard to convince IAF to buy Gripen with most likely similar deal LM offer India ..but I think Swedish might be easier to put in bottle than American ..

rest of your post , i agree with .. Thanks

 

[avrham11]

yes

 

[Oldman1]

The F16 will definitely speed up India's military aviation if they get this plane.

 

[Ocean]

And what does that prove.....I'm spending more time on the forum while you are allegedly shifting snow.

Is that a fact, wonder who dragged in some posts in Siachen in a discussion about incidents in the air....learn to stick to the topic.

There you go again, getting yourself all muddled up in catch 22 position... irony you keep repeating post ~22....well this is what i said in that post not what you keep on. blabbering.


As for the tone in the Indian pilots headset....
let me put you out of your misery with a somewhat similar incident that occurred during the Kargil conflict.



Armed with four AA-10 and two Magic-2 [or probably AA-11] missiles, Gaurav Chibber a MiG-29 pilot acquired a lock on at two PAF F-16As orbiting over Skardu. The F-16s at once repeated their drill of engine to idle thrust, deploying a cloud of chaff and dropping down from 20,000ft to 500ft AGL with AA Radar on standby mode. Gaurav Chibber must have had a wry smile on his face under his helmet when he lost the lock-on. Angry with the avionics Gaurav again searched for the Vipers when he felt that the avionics of his aircraft had jammed. Gaurav tried all methods and probably had his A/A Radar functional again when he saw no sign of any aircraft in his radar. He felt something suspicious and decided to move out. As he started his way back to the base he saw two tracks appearing suddenly on his A/A Radar from behind. He quickly took evasive action but was relieved that he is well inside his territory and the tracks turned back in Pakistan.
As fate would have it, F/L Gaurav Chibber met his end when the Mig-29 ,he was flying crashed in Bilaspur distric of Himachal Pardesh on August 6, 1999.

Flight Lieutenant Gaurav Chibber

[=153']153 Course)B]Service End[/B] Died in Service 06 Aug 99

Awards and Decorations
Numbern]

1.) you make a claim about a certain jf17 lock on mki, around loc ,where loc near you is ajk border.
2.) the indian guy picked up the comment , took it to be some incident happening around glacier region in gb.
3.) he boasted how indians had taken a lock. And how a big moment that is.
4.) then all of a sudden out of blue we find him raging around the thread blaming you for making false claims and flipflopping, shifting goal posts.
5.) he writes 50 feet long posts with personal attacks, verbiage and gibberish and accusations that you are putting a spin on the actual incident. In his over enthusiasm he quotes all of yours and his rejoinders , tags a mod for no reason.
6.) for all the tall claims made he does not even know Chief of air staff is abbreviated as CAS.
7.) you stick to your version through out , yet he accuses of shifting goal posts. Whilst he states his own version. When you stand your ground he starts demanding a source. which obviously you can not share and he is free to reject it. But he chose to create drama in his over enthusiasm.
8.) he demands source from you but fails to provide one for his imaginary lock. Somehow we should tnink windjammer is a liarss long as source is not provided but we should believe his version without any source?
9.) why would anyone disclose on a forum that mkis have not flown in j and k for a year and are not used in CAP. No armed forces personnel would do this.
10.) when out of all arguments he does another somersault and changes his argument to "why would paf take a lock on mki that is unprossional etc etc" . Even though few pages back he was boastfully claiming about a certain mig 29 upg lock and now suddenly when paf does it it becomes unprofessional.

So many long posts over so many pages as something of monstrous significance had happened, only to come down to this?

I am sure he will repeat the same gymnastics in other discussions

 

[Windjammer]

1.) you make a claim about a certain jf17 lock on mki, around loc ,where loc near you is ajk border.
2.) the indian guy picked up the comment , took it to be some incident happening around glacier region in gb.
3.) he boasted how indians had taken a lock. And how a big moment that is.
4.) then all of a sudden out of blue we find him raging around the thread blaming you for making false claims and flipflopping, shifting goal posts.
5.) he writes 50 feet long posts with personal attacks, verbiage and gibberish and accusations that you are putting a spin on the actual incident. In his over enthusiasm he quotes all of yours and his rejoinders , tags a mod for no reason.
6.) for all the tall claims made he does not even know Chief of air staff is abbreviated as CAS.
7.) you stick to your version through out , yet he accuses of shifting goal posts. Whilst he states his own version. When you stand your ground he starts demanding a source. which obviously you can not share and he is free to reject it. But he chose to create drama in his over enthusiasm.
8.) he demands source from you but fails to provide one for his imaginary lock. Somehow we should tnink windjammer is a liarss long as source is not provided but we should believe his version without any source?
9.) why would anyone disclose on a forum that mkis have not flown in j and k for a year and are not used in CAP. No armed forces personnel would do this.
10.) when out of all arguments he does another somersault and changes his argument to "why would paf take a lock on mki that is unprossional etc etc" . Even though few pages back he was boastfully claiming about a certain mig 29 upg lock and now suddenly when paf does it it becomes unprofessional.

So many long posts over so many pages as something of monstrous significance had happened, only to come down to this?

I am sure he will repeat the same gymnastics in other discussions

You can be sure that during my 8 years on this forum, i have come across many internet tough guys and weekend warriors..... the moment this character dragged in Siachen along with COAS and MiG-29, i knew he was testing his luck and once getting exposed he resorted to being foulmouthed and through frustration decided to tag Mods and his country fellows (obviously for back up). Anyways, I'm not here for any medals and nor does PAF, unlike IAF makes a song and dance about every incident....like awarding a Fulcrum pilot for gaining a lock on a PAF F-16 from within own territory, which again turned out to be just another desperate effort to boost the moral....and the IAF pilot is no longer around to be questioned.

 

[Ocean]

You can be sure that during my 8 years on this forum, i have come across many internet tough guys and weekend warriors..... the moment this character dragged in Siachen along with COAS and MiG-29, i knew he was testing his luck and once getting exposed he resorted to being foulmouthed and through frustration decided to tag Mods and his country fellows (obviously for back up). Anyways, I'm not here for any medals and nor does PAF, unlike IAF makes a song and dance about every incident....like awarding a Fulcrum pilot for gaining a lock on a PAF F-16 from within own territory, which again turned out to be just another desperate effort to boost the moral....and the IAF pilot is no longer around to be questioned.

I read him on other indian forum , whatever news regarding cpec or bad news about pakistan is published, the guy hops up in excitment and tells everyone around please visit so and so thread i had already predicted this incident 6 or more months back. Like one would say, chalo aik incident predict kar liya , but no every single news is already predicted by him many many months back. I think it is about time a career in circus should be considered by him.
The way these guys bad mouth pakistan on their forums including this very guy, one has to have zero pc of self respect to still visit a pakistani forum and try engaging our people.
Whats more weird is they open threads to offend islam , this particular guy intentionally did on his forum fully knowing the practice discussed was not associated with islam , then many posters outright started abusing our prophet, the hellfire guy thanked those posts depsite holding moderation powers, then later i saw him here throwing hissy fits and tagging all pakistani mods when he saw others insulting hinduism. I mean zero shame. Zero.
And this is a regular jesters wali practice younwould observe him doing, start mass tagging moderators in unrelated post. And honestly he has made a crude joke out of himself in this thread and in other discussions like umpteenth time. Why i am so pisse d off is because i watch him running same circus in every other thread, hardly knows what is discussed , throws in fictitious incident stories, wants everyone to believe that shyt, verbiage , unnecessary technical terms not relating to topic at hand, then authrotatively instructing the poster to not troll whislt insulting him as you were targeted and then tagging the mods for no apparent reason. Like what the hell? Circus karni tau hai tau circus join karo yahan say phutto.

but Good on you , keep knocking some sense into him.