Is it good time to "Let these Afghans GO" from Balochistan?

[war&peace]

I feel sorry for these Afghans its against our custom to force our guests out but Afghans need to take responsibility of their own

Bro...guest is for a day or two...not for decades...I used to be proponent of Afghan refugees...but not any longer...They should be send back to their blackhole and the ungrateful NDS to deal with it. Furthermore, we should not let any trade through Pakistan until they mend their ways, let them deal with Iranians for trade. These are ungrateful brain dead pests who have been sucking blood out of poor Pakistanis. No more tolerance for these vermin.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Backing down ? incase you missed the Tali Burka offensive is on. What else can the GHQ do? Your proxies are in full drive trying to take over Afghanistan.



Bet the stuff you were smoking were pretty strong while rumbling this comment Turkey/Pak no fly zones... blah blah.

If Pak or GHQ wanted you would be back in the Stone Age... Supplying arms to Taliban,cutting off supplies and deporting millions of afghan refugees will literally screw your country.

If that is what Pak wanted.

 

[That Guy]

Backing down ? incase you missed the Tali Burka offensive is on. What else can the GHQ do? Your proxies are in full drive trying to take over Afghanistan.

Afghanistan has had multiple chances at real tangible peace, with Pakistan acting as a guarantor. It is not Pakistan that has sabotaged peace efforts multiple times, and yet Afghan hardliners, whom control Afghanistan's government, never learn their lesson.

 

[A-Team]

If Pak or GHQ wanted you would be back in the Stone Age... Supplying arms to Taliban,cutting off supplies and deporting millions of afghan refugees will literally screw your country.

If that is what Pak wanted.

Pakistan actually turned Afghanistan into a stone age place when your proxies were in power, have you ever visited Afghanistan when they were in power, things would have stayed the same for us if it were not for the US to come over to Afghanistan, call it luck call it Pakistani proxies punching abover their weight, our friend @pakistani342 can probably chip in here.

Anyways there are two caveat for Pakistan not be able to change Afghanistan again into stone age enterprise

- A complete Tali take over will have negative repercussions for Pakistan, i.e. TTP and others finding a permanent base etc
- International community won't accept a complete takeover of Talis of Afghanistan especially the US, since it will endanger her interests in the region.

So Pakistan may be able maintain the status quo for a while, but anything more will be detrimental to her interests.
If you follow what is happening around the world the statu quo is costing Pakistan a complete international isolation and is not changing the landscape vis-a-vis Talis in any strategic manner and thus Pakistan is actually losing in the bigger scheme of things.

Solution : Pakistan must accept Afghanistan as a sovereign state and only through her can Pakistan achieve her genuine interests and not vi

Afghanistan has had multiple chances at real tangible peace, with Pakistan acting as a guarantor. It is not Pakistan that has sabotaged peace efforts multiple times, and yet Afghan hardliners, whom control Afghanistan's government, never learn their lesson.

You are an objective poster here, but sometimes you see the situation only through your own prism.

 

[General General]

The way I summarise it is that by forming a peace settlement with various power axes in Afghanistan, the government will only loose influence since it will have to share the proverbial throne. These politicians are being paid handsomely by the foreigners and they don't want to kick the hornet's nest. Life is good.
So, there will be obvious reluctance among the Afghan politicians to provide a cause for the foreign forces to pack up and scale back their funding. As far as they know, a chaos in the country will ensure the presence of their pay-check-signatories.
Mind you, I believe Ghani did make an honest movement towards Pakistan in the beginning of his tenure. However, he was surrounded by his hostile peers. So, when things didn't move fast enough with Pakistan, he had to get back in line or else he would have faced a vicious opposition from all around him.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

The situation now is hopeless. Probably the only thing now that can be done is seal the border and throw the keys away. Stay out of Afghanistan. Absolutely. Invest in the FATA and border regions to develop them properly. Let another 50 years pass and then see how things stand. Right now there is too much hate and it is not going to go anywhere. Europeans in similar situations in history would go to war and not stop until so many died that both sides just wanted hug and make up. Af-Pak are not even capable of doing that.

How did Pak get here after investing 30 years and offerring it's land as refuge? Well the easy way out is blame it on the Afghans. However if they were so bad then does Pak not know them? Why did it join in 1979? Nobody forced Pak to join the anti Soviet war. Pak should have just stayed out of it.

However Pak jumped in. Nothing wrong with that. However if you do jump into something you must always make sure your doing the right thing. In addition you must ne prepared to do what is required to prevail. You must be prepared to lose men and treasury. These are nursey games. In short if you can't stand the heat don't go in. Leaving asides whether Pak should have gon in or not this is my rendering of things.

From 1979 to 1989 Pak did reasonable job although possible over extended itself by being partial. I read a book by Sandy Gall from about 1988 and he had stayed with differant Muj factions and even then Shah Masoud and his Panjsheris were complaining that Pak was being biased in supplying more US gifted weapons to other groups. The seeds of hate were already there all the way back in 1988.

After 1990 Pak's weakness was exposed. With US being the real financier once they left Pak struggled to form a effective mandate inside Afghanistan. This period should have taught Pak that it's ability to enforce it's wish was limited without foreign backing. Over time the Taliban took off. To be fair I don't think Pak had much choice but to support Taliban. US also supported Taliban and that included Saudia Arabia.

Dealing with the Taliban should have taught Pak planners of the stupidity and shear retardness of dealing with those who think they run a religious dispensation. Religious zealots are unpredicayble and lack any sense. This was seen by Taliban getting increasingly chummy with OBL. When a superpower makes a enemy you do not want have anything to do with that guy. It's like in Pakistan. If a guy is wanted by the local gangsters you don't hide him in your house where you have family and kids. All you will do is put them at risk when inevitably the gangsters come looking for their guy.

Well madness of the Taliban came home to roost in 2001. Now f somebody came knocking at your door and wanted access through your property to the field behind your house to build some structures. What would you do? You might agree but I doubt you would agree if you knew they might build something there that might have serious adverse effect on your property. You might therefore agree to let them through but on the condition that you also will go with them to make sure that whatever is built is not negative to your interests.

Meaning in this case when US Army went in elements of Pak Army should have also gone in to make sure that whatever new dispensation takes shape is at least not made of anti Pak elements. In short you need to be there shape up the post 2001 Afghanistan. Instead that puffter Musharaf who had already proven his total lack of strategic or guts in the misadventure called the Kargil War decided to give Americans keys to Afghanistan and then sat there like a retard hoping somehow the new order in Kabul would be okay for Pakistan. Guess what it was not. No surprises there I guess. NA just drove in Kabul and the seed of hate that Sandy Gall had detected in 1988 now was firmly planted in Kabul. Ever since it has gone from strength to strength.

For this blunder ( this was 5th greatest blunder by Pakistan) it is possible GHQ actually though those religious nutjobs in Kabul would defeat the Americans or it ws simple lack of balls by Musharaf who did not have the gumption of sying to the Americans that Pak would help but it would go in to make sure Kabul was not taken over ny hostile force.

Now the game is over. I feel the Kabul government is here to stay. Every year that goes by a new Afghanistan is being made. A new secular identity is forming most of it shaped by hatred of Pakistan. This is uniting the differant ethnic groups. also huge forreign aid has built up class of Afghans who have everything to lose and the rest especially young can see. They don't want Taliban back. To finish this off Americans are not going to leave. This more or less secures the Afghan new order.

Now on the Afghan side. They have to understand that Pak/India have a 70 year old rivalry and it's not going to go away. If I were Afghan I would cut the Indians lose and seek 100% peace with Pakistan simply because, well India is not your damned neighbour. Afghanistan keeping close alliance with India is fine. It is a sovereign nation but that will mean there are going to be consequences. You can't keep both Pak and India. Only superpowers are allowed to two time.

Do you think US or Europe would accept Latvia or even Poland dilly dallying with Russians? No, way I am afraid. Your in with the West or your in with the Russkies. Although it is not the same but same applies to Afghan/Pak/India equation.

Since I don't expect Afghans to change and there is no way Pakistan is going to make peace with India the only way left is fence the border and throw the keys away for another half a century.

And I know my mate @A-Team will understand.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Pakistan actually turned Afghanistan into a stone age place when your proxies were in power, have you ever visited Afghanistan when they were in power, things would have stayed the same for us if it were not for the US to come over to Afghanistan, call it luck call it Pakistani proxies punching abover their weight, our friend @pakistani342 can probably chip in here.

Nope I didn't I was born in 90s.

As for Stone Age let's be honest Afghanistan was never a functional state to begin with .. The soviet lead reforms were rejected by afghan masses 90% of whom lived in rural areas .. And it was them who started the insurgency ..

Anyways there are two caveat for Pakistan not be able to change Afghanistan again into stone age enterprise

- A complete Tali take over will have negative repercussions for Pakistan, i.e. TTP and others finding a permanent base etc

Let's be realistic.. On one hand you accuse Pak of helping Afghan Taliban on the other you tell us that TTP whom we are fighting are buddies with the AT?

Which one is the case ?

If Pak is supporting AT than it would be good for Pakistan wouldn't it?

- International community won't accept a complete takeover of Talis of Afghanistan especially the US, since it will endanger her interests in the region.

US has already take. Taliban off the "terrorist" list... It is negotiating with them and so is Iran ...

They are already offering them to join politics... But the Taliban aren't responding because they feel they are in a better position.

So Pakistan may be able maintain the status quo for a while, but anything more will be detrimental to her interests.
If you follow what is happening around the world the statu quo is costing Pakistan a complete international isolation and is not changing the landscape vis-a-vis Talis in any strategic manner and thus Pakistan is actually losing in the bigger scheme of things.

Pakistan is isolated and how is that? Yes our relation with USA aren't rosy but than again it all depends on geopolitics .. And economy ...

US may change it policies and get the fk out of Afghanistan and than what? You will be left with Taliban to deal with and no aid which is already dwindling like afghan govt.

Solution : Pakistan must accept Afghanistan as a sovereign state and only through her can Pakistan achieve her genuine interests and not

We do .. But does Afghanistan do the same ? It was Afghanistan that didn't accept Pak in 47... That has invaded Pak territory multiple times and failed .. It has been Afghanistan that has been hostile to Pak for decades ..

You are an objective poster here, but sometimes you see the situation only through your own prism.

I have nothing against afghans .. I have afghan friends who were born,raised,educated and now work here ... I have lived,ate and trust them with my life... No doubt about that.

But yes sometimes the actions of afghan public like the burning of Pak flags and stone pelting dosti gate in Chaman do effect me aswell..

Till a few years Pakistani public would protest against anything happening in Afghanistan (that effected afghan people) today they are protesting against afghans .. This change didn't come overnight but due to your publics hostility...

The BLA and TTP are in Afghanistan .. We have your people involved in crimes and terrorism .. We see your govt sponsoring and helping indians use your soil against us (like the past-- nothing new)... And much more.


Ghani saheb wanted peace sure but Abdullah Abdullah has been a thorn and forced Ghani to back down thanks to dirty politics..

Il be blunt.. Your govt specially former NA warlords harbour hatred against Pak and being in power they are the ones pulling the strings.

If we want real peace.. The afghan govt should stop indian from using its soil... Flush out TTP and BLA from Kunar,Nuristani and other areas...


And most importantly strike a peace deal with Taliban because without them there will never be any peace in your country because despite all the hoo haa .. Taliban are supported by a large portion of afghan public or society whether you like it or not.

No insurgency can survive for long without any internal or public support.

Let's work together... I'm even for open borders without visas .. Kabul is hardly a few hours from Peshwar...

 

[Ali Sinan]

If Pakistan is genuine on Islamic ummah then it would accept more Afghans and Rohingyas.

The less said about Pakistan's stance on the Uyghurs the better.

@Joe Shearer
Your country men / women trolling on our internal affairs....Kindly let them know what i want to tell them
Tuwadi maan nu

 

[That Guy]

You are an objective poster here, but sometimes you see the situation only through your own prism.

True, but can you blame me? I may try and look at things objectively, but my bias is still in favor of Pakistan. I believe in transparency, which is why my I have openly shown the Pakistani flag on my profile, but in the end, I'm still only human.

 

[dadeechi]

On what?
http://iran-times.com/khamenehi-says-kashmir-oppressed/

https://defence.pk/threads/turkey-pledges-to-back-pakistan-on-kashmir.442524/


http://www.telegraphindia.com/1160414/jsp/nation/story_80057.jsp

https://defence.pk/threads/saudi-snub-on-kashmir.426944/

http://dailykashmirimages.com/Detai...-internal-problem-of-india-pakistani-official

Saudi Arabia provides jobs to Indians and call India their second home..

Iran provides Economic opportunities and sells Oil &Gas

Turkey is planning to support India on NSG.

Afghanistan has a defense pact with India.

 

[Hellfire]

The afghans will not learn a lesson until we make them miserable much like the Jews of berlin persecuted by Nazi..it is inhumane..but there is no other solution to it as well..Afghans need to be taught a lesson....

Very informative post. So now genocide is your answer? Or do you agree with the assessment of Ahmadinejad that it was the biggest lie of history and nothing of the sort took place? Or, perhaps, the emulation of your 'fraternal brother' Turkey in the Armenian case?

Would be grateful if you could elaborate on the bold part.

You are blaming Pakistan? Even the Turks don't take them in. Stop shedding crocodile tears. We will cooperate with China which is our ally. Don't be jealous now.

When will India stop discriminating against its own people such as the Dalit? You higher caste Indians aren't even loyal towards your own kind. Don't lecture Pakistanis about brotherhood when you Indians discriminate against your own brothers and sisters.

What are you now, a six year old kid?

Yes, we are pathetic, agreed. But you are the supposed muslim brotherhood et al, be the bigger brother, tolerate the insults and try and politely and patiently get the kid brother to see your point of view. Why ignore your youngest brother, the Uighurs? Just because a bigger bully kicks the rear of your youngest brother and you lack the guts?

I like your answers so far. Go on.

I always say , people who work , pay taxes (have history of tax filing) and have no crime record let them stay

Target the ones "that are bombing places" and their center is in Kabul which has to be controlled

Afghan "Unclaimed Territory" should be claimed by hoisting Pakistani flag over Kabul

• Demolish their broken government
• Turn off the radio
  
• Take over the newspaper
• End the safe heaven in Afghanistan (Terrorist land) and then flush the rats hiding in Pakistan

Once the mouth piece is gone , people will go back to working and jobs


Right now we are letting a snake grow in our backyard all these humvees , and weapons going there in container will make snake stronger , and it does not goes after terrorist camps these weapons are being used to fire into Pakisatan

Why is there a problem in Turkey -> Kurds (Getting weapons - goods , you name it )
Why is there a problem in Pakistan ->Afghanistan( Getting weapons-good , you name it)

What happens in a country when 2 factions are created with weapon , Look at Syria.
Syria is a prime example of what happens when outside nations supply weapons into a Sovereign state

Iraq - Libya - Syria , are all example of state were tones of weapons were dropped into state players (2 -3 factions) , and central governments were dislodged

Speaking of Afghanistan, Infact not long ago a shipment went from our own (Pakistani) Port Trucks, Humvees, Guns and then what they are firing on our border. Into Pakistani border same weapons

There is a stash of weapon left in Afghanistan - who is this for ?

Untill the two nations (Turkey/Pakistan) will not launch major offensive the bombings will continue and disruption will continue

Pushing immigrants or people who want to work or live will not solve the issue



This is afghanistan

Papa snake , and then million of tiny snakes all living happily in Afghanistan crawling out

Kurds are being given weapons to go against Turkey
Afghan Terrorist (Living in Afghanistan) are given weapons to go against Pakistan

See the world does not care they are enjoying Olympics and going to concerts and Movies and all fancy stuff , tomorrow someone will fly a bomber plane over Pakistan or Turkey and drop a weapon on Building and say oh we don't know .... who dropped the bomb we were going against ISIS or what ever

• Bombings happened over syria , no problem , Olympic is not disrupted
  
• There is no candle light
  
• Elled De generes was riding over Usaian bolt (this is what people cared about)
  
• There were lot of sport events happening all 100 not effected by the booming in Syria
• UN was god don't know what they were doing
• People of world were watching Ibrahimovic score goals in Man United debut

And what were people doing in Pakistan

• 4-5 Politicians were debating about corruption charges and demonstration , this was there priority on tv for 2-3 hours
• It was a lame show but they were discussing meaningless political discussion

Only Solution:

• Turkey takes out Kurds - militants - No fly zone established
  
• Pakistan neutralizes Afghanistan takes it over - No fly zone established
  
• Pakisatan- Turkey - Saudia - Egypt launch strike in Syria (Ground Operation - No fly zone)
• 30 Day grace period offered to ISIS to lay down weapons in Iraq, otherwise (Ground Operation - No fly zone)

The Immigrants are never the problem the problem is always "Militancy" and rouge factions who get the weapons from Afganistan-Kurd areas , and some are born out of circumstances like ISIS etc

The only Long term solution is not kicking out Immigrants or women or children but it is taking an offensive approach against Militant groups who receive weapons and later this weapon falls into rouge forces

Never forget - even Prophet Mohammad was a Immigrant to Madina he was originally a resident of Makkah, and was forced to immigrate due to extremism in Makkah during early parts of our history

I agree. You should enter Afghanistan and bring it under control. Irrespective of the fact that you will end up dominating the nation, at least there will be stability for the duration.

Since the sabotage of the last peace talks, Pakistan has had a zero tolerance policy. Go back a few years, Pakistan would have backed down, in order to appease Kabul, but Pakistan has finally come to realize that backing down has only harmed Pakistan.

How does confrontational approach make sense? I am still confused here, seeing the answers as above quoted so far.

Bro...guest is for a day or two...not for decades...I used to be proponent of Afghan refugees...but not any longer...They should be send back to their blackhole and the ungrateful NDS to deal with it. Furthermore, we should not let any trade through Pakistan until they mend their ways, let them deal with Iranians for trade. These are ungrateful brain dead pests who have been sucking blood out of poor Pakistanis. No more tolerance for these vermin.

GHQ may not agree with you here. You will end up handing over Afghanistan to us on platter. Their POV. Just for arguments sake, consider this.

 

[That Guy]

How does confrontational approach make sense? I am still confused here, seeing the answers as above quoted so far.

It is not so much about being confrontational, it is about making decisions unilaterally, if Afghanistan refuses to cooperate. In the past, Pakistan has consistently backed down to appease Afghanistan, due to Afghanistan's fragile political scene, that is no longer the case. Pakistan will still approach Afghanistan for cooperation on a number of issue such as the border, but it will continue it's efforts to secure the border, regardless of the answer that Afghanistan gives.

 

[Hellfire]

It is not so much about being confrontational, it is about making decisions unilaterally, if Afghanistan refuses to cooperate. In the past, Pakistan has consistently backed down to appease Afghanistan, due to Afghanistan's fragile political scene, that is no longer the case. Pakistan will still approach Afghanistan for cooperation on a number of issue such as the border, but it will continue it's efforts to secure the border, regardless of the answer that Afghanistan gives.

Sensible.

But then, if you recall, there was a discussion a year or two back, on what stops Pakistan from fencing it's border with Afghanistan to meet it's legitimate security interests. What, in your opinion, are the factors for the hesitancy on Pakistani side to undertake the same?

One can see that presence of a robust fencing does result in reducing the security challenges to a certain degree. Israel is an example. If the terrain is the issue, then there has been some reduction in LC infiltration for us, although the maintenance of LC fencing is a major effort and at that and I concede a tiered fencing may geographically and typographically not be possible at all points.

 

[That Guy]

Sensible.

But then, if you recall, there was a discussion a year or two back, on what stops Pakistan from fencing it's border with Afghanistan to meet it's legitimate security interests. What, in your opinion, are the factors for the hesitancy on Pakistani side to undertake the same?

One can see that presence of a robust fencing does result in reducing the security challenges to a certain degree. Israel is an example. If the terrain is the issue, then there has been some reduction in LC infiltration for us, although the maintenance of LC fencing is a major effort and at that and I concede a tiered fencing may geographically and typographically not be possible at all points.

It has mainly been politics, and cost.

Addressing the cost first, you don't just have to pay for building the fence, you also have to pay for maintaining it, so that it does not degrade; Such costs can run out of control, if you're not careful. Not to mention that certain terrain makes the fencing there either expensive, or just nonviable.

As for the politics, get ready for a brief history lesson. The Durand line is an issue Afghanistan refuses to drop, even though it is the internationally recognized legal border between the two. Afghanistan also refuses to de jure recognize the sovereignty, even existence of Pakistan; indeed, Afghanistan only recognizes Pakistan as a de facto state, one that it believes has no legal basis for existing. It should be noted, that despite the rest of the world, including nations such as India and Israel accepting Pakistan's existence and sovereignty, Afghanistan was the ONLY country to reject the state of Pakistan.

Many Pakistanis don't know this, mostly because it has been lost to history, but Afghanistan twice tried to invade Pakistan through both militant tribal forces, and regular military forces, and twice got kicked out by local tribes that rejected Afghanistan's efforts.

Afghanistan started the Pashtunistan movement, and introduced first militancy in the subcontinent in it's modern history. It, along with the support of the USSR, Iraq and allegedly India, started training and supporting separatist Pashtun and Baluch against Pakistan. Though, the Pashtunistan movement has died, Afghan people have been taught for decades that it is still not only alive, but a duty for Afghans to morally support. Another myth that many Afghans have been taught is that the Durand line was only legal for 100 years, but nowhere does it actually give such a timeline.

Why would Afghanistan support an independent Baluchistan/Pashtunistan? The thought was that an independent Baluchistan/Pashtunistan would be unviable, and would fall apart within weeks of independence, due to tribal infighting (which has a lot of merit), and seeing no real alternative, either Afghanistan would step in, or the Baluchistani/Pashtunistani government would have no choice but to ask Afghanistan to let them join into an Afghanistani federation. This would give Afghanistan, a landlocked country, access to the Indian ocean, which would mean that Afghanistan would no longer be reliant on surrounding nations for sea trade.

Pakistan, for its own part, has been sensitive to Afghanistan's concerns, due to the fact that many Pakistanis have sympathy for Afghans in general (or at least they had it). Remember, Pakistan was created as a home for the subcontinent's Muslim population, so the Muslim identity is very much ingrained in Pakistani mindset; With Afghanistan been a fellow Muslim country, and one suffering from constant invasions and foreign occupations, Pakistani public was very much supportive of Afghanistan. Unfortunately, politicians are almost always judged by the court of public opinion, and the public opinion was that Pakistan shouldn't act harshly towards Afghans, which is why Pakistan ended up taking in (at the height of Afghanistan's instability) almost fifth of Afghanistan's population, with millions still residing in Pakistan.

With the current backlash against Afghans residing in Pakistan, due to terrorist attacks, Pakistanis have lost the apatite to continue sympathizing and hosting Afghans (many of whom, now consider Pakistan home, due to either being born or growing up there). The Pakistani public feels that it has been generous enough, and that Afghans have outstayed their welcome, which is why we're seeing such a change in the way that both the military and civilian leadership have been making their moves.

Basically, the current mood in Pakistan, towards Afghanistan, is to talk, but only if Afghanistan is willing to listen; They're not willing to listen? Then ignore them and do what needs to be done.

 

[Hellfire]

@That Guy the history piece, was aware of. But thanks for pointing out as members here may definitely benefit from what you wrote.

The cost and terrain constraints, I did give the Indian example at that. But the long term intangible costs being borne by Pakistan certainly outweigh the costs of construction and maintenance of the fence.

I was more intrigued as to why PA and GoP have not pushed it? We have a fence in Kashmir, despite the unsettled border issue north of manawar. What stops Pakistan from enforcing it's border which is indeed internationally recognized? (I think you gave this emphasis keeping in mind my linking Kashmir to Baluchistan issue in various debates? LOL. If so, that is a debate!!! I have no second thoughts on your boundaries except in J&K)