Is it Agni-1 Prime?

[The Deterrent]

Shut up and learn to take a compliment gracefully. Drama queen.

I think you misunderstood my post. By superlative adjectives, I referred to this statement by @God Parshuram

one the most accurate missile of its kind existing anywhere in the world.

The problem with these kind of claims (which sometimes extend to single-digit accuracy for IRBMs) is that they are exaggerated. Once-in-a-blue-moon type pin-point hit does NOT mean that the CEP of the weapon is in single digits. Even Pakistani Shaheen-I has hit a target flag once, according to @Oscar.
An RV without fins MUST be spin-stabilized for re-entry, making ANY kind of course-corrections till impact close to impossible. Therefore at least a 2-digit inaccuracy is induced in the system, even if the trajectory error prior to re-entry was zero. Fanboys usually don't realize the inherent complexity of guiding an RV spinning on its axis during re-entry.

Hi
Agni 1 might not be in production but Agni 1P hasn't been revealed either- at least till now. What we are seeing here might be either Agni 1P or Agni2. But one thing is certain the modernization drive to introduce some of the technology viz the canisters etc reduce the prep time considerably and MEMS based FOGS improve the CEP tremendously-so much so that it can be used to effectively take out adversaries nuclear potential in a short span of time. Whenever i closely observe Pakistani startegic missiles, one thing that I find amusing is that they didn't they go beyond 1.4m 'space bridge' or SpaB rocket motors. It also seems as if Pakistan never really worked on the nozzles to improve the divergence losses. The truss structure tells a similar tale as well. Ababeel is a decent improvement over let's say Shaheen but it too uses the same old 1.4m SpaB. For some reason Pakistani designers can't get rid of external fins that provide stability. The pitch and yaw control is through the vanes. Designing a thrust vectoring nozzle to control the rocket throughout is much more complex than the vanes. The nozzle is actuated by very sensitive servo mechanism that not only has to control the orientation of the missile but also provide artificial stability in absence of external fins

Pakistan does not have the requirement or the resources to go beyond 1.4m design. As long as the required range and payload requirements are being met..... larger diameter, TVC, better interstage etc do not improve Pakistan's deterrence capabilities. You have to realize that any such COSMETIC 'upgrades' require retirement of the existing arsenal and production of new weapons in large equivalent numbers, which Pakistan has no resources for. Which reminds of the cost angle, if you see Pakistan's developments over 2 decades, you'll realize how Pakistan is keeping the costs so low.

Pakistan is making adequate advancements in the REQUIRED technologies which matter, i.e. composite motors, solid fuel, miniaturized warheads etc. In the future (considering mobility and credible second-strike requirements) the only 2 cases in which Pakistan might introduce major upgrades are for canisterization or an SLBM (need TVC & interstage for both).

It's likely to be TATA's workshop and they're just using a mock up without considerations to parts that don't matter to the launcher dimensions.

Makes sense, it doesn't exactly look like a DRDO facility.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I think you misunderstood my post. By superlative adjectives, I referred to this statement by @God Parshuram

LOL.

Forgiven. And you continue to be good. Very, very good.

The problem with these kind of claims (which sometimes extend to single-digit accuracy for IRBMs) is that they are exaggerated. Once-in-a-blue-moon type pin-point hit does NOT mean that the CEP of the weapon is in single digits. Even Pakistani Shaheen-I has hit a target flag once, according to @Oscar.
An RV without fins MUST be spin-stabilized for re-entry, making ANY kind of course-corrections till impact close to impossible. Therefore at least a 2-digit inaccuracy is induced in the system, even if the trajectory error prior to re-entry was zero. Fanboys usually don't realize the inherent complexity of guiding an RV spinning on its axis during re-entry.

I don't take these claims seriously; the US, after years of effort, hasn't pulled it off; the Chinese haven't pulled it off; suddenly, wedunnit.

Pakistan does not have the requirement or the resources to go beyond 1.4m design. As long as the required range and payload requirements are being met..... larger diameter, TVC, better interstage etc do not improve Pakistan's deterrence capabilities. You have to realize that any such COSMETIC 'upgrades' require retirement of the existing arsenal and production of new weapons in large equivalent numbers, which Pakistan has no resources for. Which reminds of the cost angle, if you see Pakistan's developments over 2 decades, you'll realize how Pakistan is keeping the costs so low.

Actually, I am quite envious of the pragmatism of the Pakistan Army; all the military, actually. Without making a fuss, they have got going to get what they need, and not complained about it not being the world's best. Two brilliant examples of productionising something quite ordinary and achieving strategic salience (@Gryphon knows exactly what I mean) are the JF 17 and the Baktar Shikan.

Pakistan is making adequate advancements in the REQUIRED technologies which matter, i.e. composite motors, solid fuel, miniaturized warheads etc. In the future (considering mobility and credible second-strike requirements) the only 2 cases in which Pakistan might introduce major upgrades are for canisterization or an SLBM (need TVC & interstage for both).

Makes sense, it doesn't exactly look like a DRDO facility.

 

[God Parshuram]

Shut up and learn to take a compliment gracefully. Drama queen.

How come there is suddenly an interesting discussion with no warning? Who is this new person @God Parshuram? And since when did Parashuram become God? @KapitaanAli we know and respect. Good reading this thread.

God Parshuram was an encarnation of God Vishnu and greatest warrior ever born on this earth.

The problem with these kind of claims (which sometimes extend to single-digit accuracy for IRBMs) is that they are exaggerated. Once-in-a-blue-moon type pin-point hit does NOT mean that the CEP of the weapon is in single digits. Even Pakistani Shaheen-I has hit a target flag once, according to @Oscar.
An RV without fins MUST be spin-stabilized for re-entry, making ANY kind of course-corrections till impact close to impossible. Therefore at least a 2-digit inaccuracy is induced in the system, even if the trajectory error prior to re-entry was zero. Fanboys usually don't realize the inherent complexity of guiding an RV spinning on its axis during re-entry.

Not exagrated my friend. Have you seen Agni 1 video hitting target ? I believe not. Had you seen that, you parheps would have agreed with me.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Is it just me, I like family guy a lot. Lol- that's the first time I'd have used LOL on this forum.

 

[Sharky]

We should ban the sentence "best in the world" from the forum. Anyone who uses it regardless of the country should be put in a bird box.

 

[amardeep mishra]

You have to realize that any such COSMETIC 'upgrades' require retirement of the existing arsenal and production of new weapons in large equivalent numbers, which Pakistan has no resources for. Which reminds of the cost angle, if you see Pakistan's developments over 2 decades, you'll realize how Pakistan is keeping the costs so low.

Hi @The Deterrent
I'd beg to differ on the word 'cosmetic' here. All these technologies mean something significant and improve the deterrence capabilities of the country in investing in them. For instance removing external fins and having TVC imply that the system can now be canisterized. Canisterization result in very small prep time of the order of a few mins (lesser than 10mins). Full composites result in lighter overall weight. Its implications entail higher Vbo at the burnout thus increasing range. But designing big composite first stages are very difficult. Similarly MEMS based lighter electronics package reduce RV weight. It has added advantage of improving accuracy. Higher Isp propellants reduce the overall footprint of the missile. This is the reason that Trident or M45 have that kind of range with such a small over all package.
Also I feel that shaheen 1 might be composite but shaheen 2 and 3 are definitely not composites and the reason for that is simply because they still are based on 1.4m SpaB rockets. As for the miniaturisation of warheads is concerned it is not my area hence would refrain from commenting.

 

[Joe Shearer]

God Parshuram was an encarnation of God Vishnu and greatest warrior ever born on this earth.

Thank you so very, very much. I am enlightened.

Not exagrated my friend. Have you seen Agni 1 video hitting target ? I believe not. Had you seen that, you parheps would have agreed with me.

 

[amardeep mishra]

In the future (considering mobility and credible second-strike requirements) the only 2 cases in which Pakistan might introduce major upgrades are for canisterization or an SLBM (need TVC & interstage for both).

@The Deterrent
TVC is something I've personally worked on. In fact my very first paper published at AIAA GNC (American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics) was on adaptive sliding mode control of Thrust Vectored aerial vehicles. The problem with thrust vectoring control (in case where both the magnitude of the thrust and vectoring angle can be varied) is that it leads to a non affine in control dynamics. This model is difficult to deal with and even more difficult to design control for. So non affine in control dynamics need to be converted into affine form using suitable change of coordinate of input control vector. Once it has been converted to affine form, various control techniques can be implemented right from sliding mode to reinforcement learning based ones.

 

[God Parshuram]

Thank you so very, very much. I am enlightened.

Pranam.

 

[Maarkhoor]

Hi! Folks!
Randomly sifting through internet after ASAT tests, I ran into these pics. This missile seems a bit bigger for Agni-1*. It is also not the ASAT weapon that was tested recently- kindly compare both the stages and it'll become apparent that it is very different from the ASAT that was tested recently. The first stage seems to have a dia of 1.4-1.5m and full composite motor. There are no external control surfaces. which means it has thrust vectoring throughout.
View attachment 550168
It is also not the SLBM and too small for Agni-6. Agni-6 is supposed to have a 2m dia composite rocket. I wonder when will they test K-5 SLBM. As of now, that missile has attained the maximum priority in Indian strategic weapons development bypassing the Agni series. This particular weapon seems to be Pakistan specific and might have a range of 1000-1200km and will be canisterized thereby providing quick firing at a very short notice. I remember watching one seminar wherein DG DRDO clearly said they want to upgrade Agni-1 to make it more advanced and add features like higher Isp propellant, full composites, canisterization etc.
@The Deterrent
@Joe Shearer
@Nilgiri

It is the mejjile which is built to avenge Abinondon's capture.

Case clopsed, we are doomed

On a serious note isn't the same missile which killed some satellite few days back?

 

[amardeep mishra]

It is the mejjile which is built to avenge Abinondon's capture.

Case clopsed, we are doomed

On a serious note isn't the same missile which killed some satellite few days back?

Hi @Maarkhoor
First learn to compose messages properly. Do not use right to reply unless and until you have significant to contribute

 

[Maarkhoor]

Hi @Maarkhoor
First learn to compose messages properly. Do not use right to reply unless and until you have significant to contribute

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hi @Maarkhoor
First learn to compose messages properly. Do not use right to reply unless and until you have significant to contribute

Oh dear, we might have a problem here.

You are addressing a screw-horn goat. And you expect properly composed messages and significant contribution?

Ambitious. But good luck anyway.

 

[The Deterrent]

LOL.
Forgiven.

Are you forgiving yourself here for the unintentional outburst?

And you continue to be good. Very, very good.

Thank you!

I don't take these claims seriously; the US, after years of effort, hasn't pulled it off; the Chinese haven't pulled it off; suddenly, wedunnit.

Precisely! Even the pioneers and current leaders of these technologies haven't accomplished this.

Actually, I am quite envious of the pragmatism of the Pakistan Army; all the military, actually. Without making a fuss, they have got going to get what they need, and not complained about it not being the world's best. Two brilliant examples of productionising something quite ordinary and achieving strategic salience (@Gryphon knows exactly what I mean) are the JF 17 and the Baktar Shikan.

Exactly, Pakistani Military has always been production, deployment and cost-oriented. They don't care if the equipment is not the best or if it doesn't have all the features yet (reference JF-17 Block-I), it just needs to be quickly produced, integrated, deployed and do the job to an okay extent. Adding to your examples:

• Mirage 3/5 second-hand purchases & ROSE-I/II/III upgrade programs
• M-113 APC licensed production with SAM & ATGM variants
  
• Strategic Weapons Program (first sourced from elsewhere, then massively upgraded locally)

Then there's also the acquisition of some key balance-upsetting equipment:

• F-16 MLU of old fleet via Turkey and purchase of BVRAAMs & PGMs
• 8x AEW&Cs (with more on order, a relatively large number)
• Self-propelled Artillery (in large numbers)
• UAVs & UCAVs (both foreign and local)
  
• Upcoming 8x S-26/30 class AIP submarines (4x will be assembled locally, with some 'perks')

Not exagrated my friend. Have you seen Agni 1 video hitting target ? I believe not. Had you seen that, you parheps would have agreed with me.

As I said, Pakistan's Shaheen-I (600km SRBM) has also once hit a target flag i.e. <5m away. Would you conclude that this is its CEP?

Hi @The Deterrent
I'd beg to differ on the word 'cosmetic' here. All these technologies mean something significant and improve the deterrence capabilities of the country in investing in them. For instance removing external fins and having TVC imply that the system can now be canisterized. Canisterization result in very small prep time of the order of a few mins (lesser than 10mins). Full composites result in lighter overall weight. Its implications entail higher Vbo at the burnout thus increasing range. But designing big composite first stages are very difficult. Similarly MEMS based lighter electronics package reduce RV weight. It has added advantage of improving accuracy. Higher Isp propellants reduce the overall footprint of the missile. This is the reason that Trident or M45 have that kind of range with such a small over all package.
Also I feel that shaheen 1 might be composite but shaheen 2 and 3 are definitely not composites and the reason for that is simply because they still are based on 1.4m SpaB rockets. As for the miniaturisation of warheads is concerned it is not my area hence would refrain from commenting.

I mentioned already that canisterization & SLBM are the only cases requiring such upgrades. Unless Pakistan requires them, these upgrades are not needed. Miniaturized warheads, lighter avionics, higher Isp propellants and composite motors are already being worked on. How else do you explain Shaheen-III's nearly 2x increase in range as compared to Shaheen-II?
Wrong, Shaheen-I & II have no composites.

It is the mejjile which is built to avenge Abinondon's capture.

Case clopsed, we are doomed

On a serious note isn't the same missile which killed some satellite few days back?

Take your flame-baiting somewhere else.

 

[God Parshuram]

As I said, Pakistan's Shaheen-I (600km SRBM) has also once hit a target flag i.e. <5m away. Would you conclude that this is its CEP?

Once our Agni V also hit single digit accuracy. We consider our CEP based on results of series of tests conducted. We have multiple videos of Brahmins hitting 1 metre accuracy. Moreover, , our BMD and ASW hitting targets in hit to kill mode is testimony to our guidence system and accuracy.