Is India Appealing To The Global Order - - - - - - - ?

[Imran Khan]

khuda ke liey koi F-16 girao yaar india ko chain nhi a raha

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,


After taking beating from PAF in broad day light the crown jewel of Indian military, the IAF, is resorting to excuses and all kinds of coulda woulda about not having rapheals and whatnot - - - - -



Pakistan did achieve some sorta of Air power parity besides military wings do indulge in these antics to get desired amount of funds and in case of IAF the air marshalls would also be eyeing on hefty kickbacks, strictly not talking about what was rendered by the jf 17 , so what is it?


1-a classic example of saving grace ?

2- or an appeal to the global order that india is still your best bet against China if the IAF gets its hands on the western wares?

3- or both?


@MastanKhan @Tps43 @Mangus Ortus Novem @Dawood Ibrahim @bilal khan quwa @Path-Finder @Great Janjua @Max @I S I @Reichmarshal @fitpOsitive @BHarwana @Windjammer @B+ Dracula @Valar. @Areesh @Maxpane @pakistanipower @PaklovesTurkiye @Hakikat ve Hikmet @Chakar The Great

Hi,

The strike by Paf was a right in your face kind of action---smacked the big guy hard and knocked him over momentarily---.

But the actual rewards would have been higher if Paf had allowed the enemy to come further in and then taken out the aircraft both in Balakot and punjab area the first night---.

India would have had nowhere to go complain---.

Paf could have bagged some M2k's and SU30's---.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

@Mentee , my friend, the global power architecture is already in a flux.

You cann't view Indo-Pak tensions in isolation.

For last 18 years Pak has been the battleground of the power struggle with global dimensions.
Please, look at your country's map to understand. This BLA and whatnots are just proxies.

India has essentially been a Western agent in Asia... this goes back since the 50's. Target China.

1962 was not an Indian enterprise against China but of its masters. India was just the tool. China containment strategy goes way back.

71 was not only to bring Pak to a managable level power but also to 'allow' the space to challenge China more vigourously. Again look at the map of BD.

After the collapse of USSR the counterweight to China was gone. Till this time China had kept its head down and opened up its economy making MNCs shareholders in its development. Here you would remember the famous speech of Bush Sr. 'NWO'.

Sine the early 90s Indians are being prepared for this goal. But Indians have one problem, their mythologies and fantasies not withstanding. The problem is called Pak State and Paks as people.

You have to look at the Comprehensive National Strength of India and China. And then you have to look at CNS of China and the US.

The much hyped India economy is actually worth what? The size of industrial base of India and China. The level of R&D, education and innovation per capita of these two countries.

In power equations brovados dont matter but data/facts do. Rhetoric vs Reality.

Hence you have to look at kills of JF-17 through the larger prims and not mere national angles.

What the Iron Falcon Thunder did is crushing of a hype, myth and advocated/promoted paradigm of India as the policeman in Afro-Asian Ocean Region. All this jazz become dud.

Now India has to do something visibly big to prove its worth. Indian Terrorism in Pak doesn't count as hardpower.

However, if India does that the Pak response will come. The Surprise!

India is terribly ill equipped, trained and motivated for conventional war. Otherwise, 2002 was the best chance.

Now India and her masters are back to the drawingboard.

Kashmir is already free. Apart from killing unarmed civilians in IoK and AJK it cann't do much. This fact alone is disturbing for the China Containment party.

CPEC makes China a two ocean power. Do you think China will allow this baby to slip away so easily?

If the war is imposed then Pak has no option but to fight to the finish...since it will be a defensive war, a war for survival.

What would India be fighting for? With what motivation? With what public support? International Media doesn't count much anymore.

When calculating Power a model must have many vectors!

Now you tell me what, in your view, India is going to do?


Regards,

Mangus

Too many right points to ponder!!! Scary.....

I, for one, am not worrying!!! Why??? Based on the Turkish experience, it’s a downhill momentum for Pak’s adversaries, and uphill one for countries like Pak and Turkey!!! And, India, as usual, is at the wrong side of the HISTORY as so astutely stated by Hamid Gul Pasha...

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

Too many right points to ponder!!! Scary.....

I, for not, am worrying!!! Why??? Based on the Turkish experience, it’s a downhill momentum for Pak’s adversaries, and uphill one for countries like Pak and Turkey!!! And, India, as usual, is at the wrong side of the HISTORY as so astutely stated by Hamid Gul Pasha...

.


#2023

There are two gateways to the Heartland. One is Pak and the other one is Turkey.

Since this is one country with two flags, therefore, Pak-Turk is a major factor in the power balance.

Both countries are increasingly taking care of their national interests.
Hence, there is going to be a lot of pressure in coming time.

#2023 wait and see!

 

[CrazyZ]

I think much of the world is sick of the India - Pakistan- Kashmir conflict. They want both nations to make peace and settle the Kashmir issue.

Western nations are in decline at the same time China is rising and Russia is resurgent. They may see India as a partner to challenge China however New Delhi is more interested both mentally and emotionally with its conflict with Pakistan. That does limit India's usefulness to the west. At the same time it increases Pakistan usefulness to China. The West's transactional relationship with India will continue.

 

[Imran Khan]

 

[MastanKhan]

I think much of the world is sick of the India - Pakistan- Kashmir conflict. They want both nations to make peace and settle the Kashmir issue.

Western nations are in decline at the same time China is rising and Russia is resurgent. They may see India as a partner to challenge China however New Delhi is more interested both mentally and emotionally with its conflict with Pakistan. That does limit India's usefulness to the west. At the same time it increases Pakistan usefulness to China. The West's transactional relationship with India will continue.

Hi,

Yes---indeed it is---.

That is why I have stated---that Iaf should have been hit harder---. They had threatened---they told the world that they were going into pakistan---and it was upto pakistan to do whatever it wanted----.

It was a terrible decision to have shooed them away at the border---.

A commander with guts gumption and ballz would have already prepared a trap---would have let them come in farther in the country and then struck them harder----.

The first night was a gutless response by the PAF---.

We don't give a sh-it about the shot down MIG21 BIS---we wanted the M2K and the SU30---. The Paf delivered less---.

I have been warned by the admins not to use the word treason and traitors anymore---so---I will not---but I will not accept the incompetency at the decision makers level.

I mean to say---think with a calm and sane mind and no emotions---and try o raise the standards of your operational thinking higher and don't be satisfied with the status quo---enemy comes in at two points---and you have no specially prepared advanced greetings for them---just the casual intercept---.

That tells me---there was no effort put in place to challenge the threat that the indian Prime Minister had declared for pakistan---.

I would give Paf overall failing grades for what they have done---. And don't get excited---there are many in the Paf and defense forces that feel the same way---that the Paf hierarchy let pakistan down when they had the chance the first night---.

What Paf did on the 2nd day---to save their faces from the embarrassment that they had caused the nation---.

It is just like the Pakistani cricketers used to say when reprimanded over fielding lapses---by saying no problem---I will make extra runs in the match---.

 

[crigar]

Hi,

Yes---indeed it is---.

That is why I have stated---that Iaf should have been hit harder---. They had threatened---they told the world that they were going into pakistan---and it was upto pakistan to do whatever it wanted----.

It was a terrible decision to have shooed them away at the border---.

A commander with guts gumption and ballaz would have already prepaed a trap---would have let them come in farther in the country and them struck them harder----.

The first night was a gutless response by the PAF---.

We don't give a sh-it about the shot down MIG21 BIS---we wanted the M2K and the SU30---. The Paf delivered less---.

I have been warned by the admins not to use the word treason and traitors anymore---so---I will not---but I will not accept the incompetency at the decision makers level.

I mean to say---think with a calm and sane mind and no emotions---and try t raise the standards of your operational thinkings higher and don't be satisfied with the status quo---enemy comes in at two points---and you have no specially prepared advanced greetings for them---just the casual intercept---.

That tells me---there was no effort put in place to challenge the threat that the indian Prime Minister had declared for pakistan---.

I would gave Paf overall failing grades for what they have done---. And don't get excited---there are many in the Paf and defense forces that feel the same way---that the Paf hierarchy let pakistan down when they had the chance the first night---.

What Paf did the 2nd day---to save their faces from the embarrassment that they had caused the nation---.

I think PAF was not expecting indian response that india will ever cross the LOC. maybe PAF high ranks were thinking india is just rattling and in the end announce another fake surgical strike. but you are right once the indians cross the LOC Pakistan should have thrown everything on them and never let them leave her airspace in one piece.

 

[Mentee]

You guys made some excellent points.

There's also this major riddle on our
western side but not anymore. Iran for its cultural, ethnic and religious reason has chosen a solo flight - - - - - - -

But to counter any gulf influence in Pak they gonna align with india or whoever the cpec is annoying .


I believe our security establishment has already conveyed a strong message by the railways minister that enough is enough.


They can't get to eat their cake and have it too. However I do hope that the Chinese try to discipline them atleast to the point of being neutral?

@Mangus Ortus Novem @Hakikat ve Hikmet

@CrazyZ

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

You guys made some excellent points.

There's also this major riddle on our
western side but not anymore. Iran for its cultural, ethnic and religious reason has chosen a solo flight - - - - - - -

But to counter any gulf influence in Pak they gonna align with india or whoever the cpec is annoying .


I believe our security establishment has already conveyed a strong message by the railways minister that enough is enough.


They can't get to eat their cake and have it too. However I do hope that the Chinese try to discipline them atleast to the point of being neutral?

@Mangus Ortus Novem @Hakikat ve Hikmet

@CrazyZ

Hence, they are called the Bazari Mollas, with the bottomless Jep in their Jubbe, by the serious Iranians...

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

You guys made some excellent points.

There's also this major riddle on our
western side but not anymore. Iran for its cultural, ethnic and religious reason has chosen a solo flight - - - - - - -

But to counter any gulf influence in Pak they gonna align with india or whoever the cpec is annoying .


I believe our security establishment has already conveyed a strong message by the railways minister that enough is enough.


They can't get to eat their cake and have it too. However I do hope that the Chinese try to discipline them atleast to the point of being neutral?

@Mangus Ortus Novem @Hakikat ve Hikmet

@CrazyZ

.



Young Pak,

Persia or Iran?

Persia will try to play all players to emerge as great regional power.

Pak being strong economically, socially, politicallly and militarily would undercut that power weight.

Persia feels superior than others.

Iran would see strength in a powerful Pakistan... adding to its security and territorial integerity.

In one common religion plays a uniting role and in another religion is a tool of power extension.

China plays a game of Go... it is a long game.

Please, try to understand Nature of Power.

I still maintain Pak is a Regional Power of Global consequence.

Only, and only IF Pak State and Governance Model can adapt to this reality. Otherwise, you would remain from IMF to bailouts from Friends.

To be a beggar or a Ruler? That's question....

Think and become.

But to the Persian benefit... try feeling their shoes... they have on one side Turkey, the other Pak and then The True Afghans (Not the imports).

Power is Math!

Now your turn to throw a curve ball.


Mangus

 

[Mentee]

Persia or Iran?

These two ideas are merging rapidly only a stern deterrent could inculcate some sanity

 

[MastanKhan]

.



Young Pak,

Persia or Iran?

Persia will try to play all players to emerge as great regional power.

Pak being strong economically, socially, politicallly and militarily would undercut that power weight.

Persia feels superior than others.

Iran would see strength in a powerful Pakistan... adding to its security and territorial integerity.

In one common religion plays a uniting role and in another religion is a tool of power extension.

China plays a game of Go... it is a long game.

Please, try to understand Nature of Power.

I still maintain Pak is a Regional Power of Global consequence.

Only, and only IF Pak State and Governance Model can adapt to this reality. Otherwise, you would remain from IMF to bailouts from Friends.

To be a beggar or a Ruler? That's question....

Think and become.

But to the Persian benefit... try feeling their shoes... they have on one side Turkey, the other Pak and then The True Afghans (Not the imports).

Power is Math!

Now your turn to throw a curve ball.


Mangus

Hi,

I believe that Pakistan will emerge as a seperate power---.

The cost of not sending military to Yemen is very high for pakistan---.

The most current BLUNDER that pakistan military made just now was help from two muslim countries----offering their military assistance---.

Accepting that would have been a master stroke---because once the foreign ally military shows up---the ally is now committed to you by default---they have nowhere to go back on their word or other assistance in the UN and other similar places---.

That was another one of he terrible terrible decision made by pak military---. Cannot see to get their heads out of the dark---.

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

Hi,

I believe that Pakistan will emerge as a seperate power---.

The cost of not sending military to Yemen is very high for pakistan---.

The most current BLUNDER that pakistan military made just now was help from two muslim countries----offering their military assistance---.

Accepting that would have been a master stroke---because once the foreign ally military shows up---the ally is now committed to you by default---they have nowhere to go back on their word or other assistance in the UN and other similar places---.

That was another one of he terrible terrible decision made by pak military---. Cannot see to get their heads out of the dark---.

.



My dear MK Ultra,

A power that doesn't take stock of its abilities, opportunities and risks remains paralysed.

Sometimes changing geopolitical vectors on the ground enables opening of venues of influence and strength.

As you know I have said many, many times before.... ME is of strategic interest of Pak... had Pak played its cards right then it might have become an exclusive Pak Zone. KSA would have bankrolled total military modernisation of Pak in a jiffffy.

I do sense a course correction with the new government though. But given the track record of Pak's unique ability to miss god given opportunities... let us not get our hopes high.

Power balance is changing fast. This little Thunder Killing Spree (must have been much more massive) has created strategic window for Pak State.. Let us see whether the Planners can capitalise on this.

Do forgive my forwardness... but Pak State only thinks when hammer hits the toes....

Pak needs to learn to think like a Power State, Plan like one and Act like one.

But you don't have political or strategic culture of long term planning and execution.

Next time India does some crap Pak State must hit back with ruthless vengence... otherwise, Indians will keep coming back. Pak must take to the edge in the first strike back.

Letting go of the INS sub was STUPID mistake of epic dimensions.

Now throw me a curve ball.

How are you, old man? Your Duits hunden alright? I know you love Pak deeply... show that softer side evey now and then... Ya keep hittin 'em Paks too hard.

Now then...

Mangus

 

[MastanKhan]

.



My dear MK Ultra,

A power that doesn't take stock of its abilities, opportunities and risks remains paralysed.

Sometimes changing geopolitical vectors on the ground enables opening of venues of influence and strength.

As you know I have said many, many times before.... ME is of strategic interest of Pak... had Pak played its cards right then it might have become an exclusive Pak Zone. KSA would have bankrolled total military modernisation of Pak in a jiffffy.

I do sense a course correction with the new government though. But given the track record of Pak's unique ability to miss god given opportunities... let us not get our hopes high.

Power balance is changing fast. This little Thunder Killing Spree (must have been much more massive) has created strategic window for Pak State.. Let us see whether the Planners can capitalise on this.

Do forgive my forwardness... but Pak State only thinks when hammer hits the toes....

Pak needs to learn to think like a Power State, Plan like one and Act like one.

But you don't have political or strategic culture of long term planning and execution.

Next time India does some crap Pak State must hit back with ruthless vengence... otherwise, Indians will keep coming back. Pak must take to the edge in the first strike back.

Letting go of the INS sub was STUPID mistake of epic dimensions.

Now throw me a curve ball.

How are you, old man? Your Duits hunden alright? I know you love Pak deeply... show that softer side evey now and then... Ya keep hittin 'em Paks too hard.

Now then...

Mangus

Hi,

the thunder killing spree was fantastic on its own merits---but tactically---it drew the rest of the powers together to a WTF moment for them---. If pakistan & china can do this is 17 years---what can they not do in the next 17 years---.

That is why---it would have been best that for the first night to bring them farther in and decimate them on own turf---.

The americans don't like what Pak did to the the Indians---. It is going to be open season---.