Is Dassault Raffale a Wrong choice by India?

[Anurag Rathore]

bhaisaab kya miraj aapka koi rishtedar hai??

on a funny note i would really like

1)sardar missile

2)rathore bomb

3)miraj fighter

4)khan tank

5)aggrawal destroyer

6)sharma awacs

7)ali mines

just to give u some examples

good 1 ... new gen hight tech equip

 

[sardar1987]

look at this sexy beast............wow

Now this will instill fear among our enemies

 

[sardar1987]

Irbis e testing

 

[sardar1987]

The complete rafale suite in one figure...............thank me ppl

 

[senkakudefender]

First of all where is ur claim of rbe2aa stats coming from??care to explain?dassault dosen't give any figures
Secondly the numbers u are suggesting will be reached in 2030 like period,not even then..................what will happen when we have to retire 350+ planes after 2018(mig 21 and 27)??

Will u fight war with 18-20 rafales and like 20 -30 lca(if even that occurs) with 272 mki??

The problem???

Can u disprove the numbers i just gave u?u can't as this is the reality,,btw i gave u 1 squadron of rafale extra as by 2018 only delivery of rafale will start if deal is signed next year(if)

First as you're saying, no planes are retired at such cost to operational strength. Second the RBE2 is an AESA variant. It is widely know that the range is twice that of a M2K. Second are you thinking PLAAF and PAF are so stupid. PAF has less than 60 F16 if you count crashes. PLAAF has only 2 aircraft of comparable class to SU30 MKI, J11 and SU 30MK2/SU 27. Both lack the 400km NO11BARS and TVC. Even if they get SU 35, we are upgrading our SU 30 MI to SU 35/SU 37 standard under the super sukhoi programme.

Around 300 Super Sukhois are super, imagine all legacy aircraft upgrade, around 120 at min Rafale by 2024? JF 17 is not even worth mentioning in the same sentence. J20 is still in development with AL31FN engines, we are taking delivery of a FGFA next year. If you want to give fodder to these Pakistanis and Chinese feel free but verify the facts.

INDIAN AIR FORCE | Asian Military Review

RBE-2AA used on Rafale. 853 T/R elements. Has been upgraded to 1000+ on production Rafale.

If a F35 does 300Km at 1000 ~ 1600 nodes. Do the damn math genius.

 

[sardar1987]

First as you're saying, no planes are retired at such cost to operational strength. Second the RBE2 is an AESA variant. It is widely know that the range is twice that of a M2K. Second are you thinking PLAAF and PAF are so stupid. PAF has less than 60 F16 if you count crashes. PLAAF has only 2 aircraft of comparable class to SU30 MKI, J11 and SU 30MK2/SU 27. Both lack the 400km NO11BARS and TVC. Even if they get SU 35, we are upgrading our SU 30 MI to SU 35/SU 37 standard under the super sukhoi programme.

Around 300 Super Sukhois are super, imagine all legacy aircraft upgrade, around 120 at min Rafale by 2024? JF 17 is not even worth mentioning in the same sentence. J20 is still in development with AL31FN engines, we are taking delivery of a FGFA next year. If you want to give fodder to these Pakistanis and Chinese feel free but verify the facts.

INDIAN AIR FORCE | Asian Military Review

RBE-2AA used on Rafale. 853 T/R elements. Has been upgraded to 1000+ on production Rafale.

If a F35 does 300Km at 100 ~ 1600 nodes. Do the damn math genius.

Pls give a proof??

here is my proof
India sets date for scrapping MiG-21 jets
http://idrw.org/?p=14641

Now it can be extended by like 1-2 years but still by 2020 we will be short of 350 aircrafts buddy

HAL production rate will be like 10-12 per year and induction of 108 rafale will take like 7-8 years at leabe more than 850st after dassault completes delivery of 18 aircrafts by 2019-20 starting by about 2017-18

As for f-35 radar.........its like a 3rd or 4 th gen aesa from US,,,U REALLY WANNA COMPARE IT WITH PUNY RBE2AA??
I challenge u to see any picture of aesa radar publicly and calculate the number of modules,,,,it will never be more than 850.....and what about the power of aesa and angular coverage??

Rafale's engines are not powerful enough to give a huge power to its aesa and the coverage is severely restricted due to fixed plate design due to small nose size..............cheers

 

[A G 1046]

i think there is a big confusion regarding the Radars of MKI, Super MKI SU 35(current & proposed) FGFA & Rafale can some one who knows more give a comprehensive and detailed comparison of all of them in terms or radars , wepon load , range & engines and delivery time line ..thanks

 

[senkakudefender]

Pls give a proof??

here is my proof
India sets date for scrapping MiG-21 jets
http://idrw.org/?p=14641

Now it can be extended by like 1-2 years but still by 2020 we will be short of 350 aircrafts buddy

HAL production rate will be like 10-12 per year and induction of 108 rafale will take like 7-8 years at leabe more than 850st after dassault completes delivery of 18 aircrafts by 2019-20 starting by about 2017-18

As for f-35 radar.........its like a 3rd or 4 th gen aesa from US,,,U REALLY WANNA COMPARE IT WITH PUNY RBE2AA??
I challenge u to see any picture of aesa radar publicly and calculate the number of modules,,,,it will never be more than 850.....and what about the power of aesa and angular coverage??

Rafale's engines are not powerful enough to give a huge power to its aesa and the coverage is severely restricted due to fixed plate design due to small nose size..............cheers

F35 nodes numbers are same as Rafale in production variant. In fact they use USA nodes. China operates 400 -600 + J7/J6(Mig 21 variants). Actual production numbers vary for HAL, but new engineering methods will save time and energy. Nodes need Gallium Arsenide alloy for enchanced performance. Russians use power to compensate for that and hence have only a hybrid ESA. Something China is aiming for in J10B PESA. Beijing Aviation Museum dedicates a plate to that.

Rafale actually has a great TWR, can do sustained 11g and SPECTRA like tech is there only for F18 SH, F22 and F35.

 

[sardar1987]

F35 nodes numbers are same as Rafale in production variant. In fact they use USA nodes. China operates 400 -600 + J7/J6(Mig 21 variants). Actual production numbers vary for HAL, but new engineering methods will save time and energy. Nodes need Gallium Arsenide alloy for enchanced performance. Russians use power to compensate for that and hence have only a hybrid ESA. Something China is aiming for in J10B PESA. Beijing Aviation Museum dedicates a plate to that.

Rafale actually has a great TWR, can do sustained 11g and SPECTRA like tech is there only for F18 SH, F22 and F35.

1)Wrong again.........rafale used USA t/r modules just in the beginning of testing,now the nodes are made by thales only

2)11 G SUSTAINED!!!

Okay here is what i am gonna tell u.Rafale has good t/w but it requires drop tanks too that reduce its ratio and rcs both..............russian planes have huge internal fuel and don't require drop tanks and in full weight have higher t/w than rafale.

3)Dassault gives no figures for its aesa.....nothing is available in public,what is available is

a)very small size of aperture
b)fixed aperture

4)pakfa's aesa will definitely outperform rbe2aa aesa.why??

a)compare the pesa of rafale f2(rbe2) with pesa of su-35(irbis e)
rbe2 gets spanked in all directions as irbis e is the most powerful pesa ever made

b)So what makes u think that rbe2aa will outperform n050 aesa?? when pakfa radar will be at
least 50 percent larger and a development of irbis-e??

i think there is a big confusion regarding the Radars of MKI, Super MKI SU 35(current & proposed) FGFA & Rafale can some one who knows more give a comprehensive and detailed comparison of all of them in terms or radars , wepon load , range & engines and delivery time line ..thanks

PLEASE READ PAGE 1 DUDE..........I HAVE GIVEN EVERYTHING

 

[sardar1987]

Anyone care for any other point?

 

[Anurag Rathore]

Anyone care for any other point?

everyone is fearing u now nd no onw wants to mess with u

 

[surya kiran]

1)Wrong again.........rafale used USA t/r modules just in the beginning of testing,now the nodes are made by thales only

2)11 G SUSTAINED!!!

Okay here is what i am gonna tell u.Rafale has good t/w but it requires drop tanks too that reduce its ratio and rcs both..............russian planes have huge internal fuel and don't require drop tanks and in full weight have higher t/w than rafale.

3)Dassault gives no figures for its aesa.....nothing is available in public,what is available is

a)very small size of aperture
b)fixed aperture

4)pakfa's aesa will definitely outperform rbe2aa aesa.why??

a)compare the pesa of rafale f2(rbe2) with pesa of su-35(irbis e)
rbe2 gets spanked in all directions as irbis e is the most powerful pesa ever made

b)So what makes u think that rbe2aa will outperform n050 aesa?? when pakfa radar will be at
least 50 percent larger and a development of irbis-e??



PLEASE READ PAGE 1 DUDE..........I HAVE GIVEN EVERYTHING

Mere pyare bhai. You are comparing again and again the PakFa and its components to the Rafale and saying it should be inducted. But, since its not ready, it will take time.

You asked for proof saying where it says Rafale will have 1000 + and i gave you an official Rafale released document for that. Hope you read it?

People are not responding to you not, because they fear you like rathore points out, but because you keep going off topic and are unable to see the practicality of bring forward the PakFa. It cannot be done. Not with money, not with resources.

 

[sardar1987]

Mere pyare bhai. You are comparing again and again the PakFa and its components to the Rafale and saying it should be inducted. But, since its not ready, it will take time.

You asked for proof saying where it says Rafale will have 1000 + and i gave you an official Rafale released document for that. Hope you read it?

People are not responding to you not, because they fear you like rathore points out, but because you keep going off topic and are unable to see the practicality of bring forward the PakFa. It cannot be done. Not with money, not with resources.

Why don't u ppl get it that russian pakfa will be inducted in 2014 and i am not at all against rafale

Considering the enoromous delay i am sceptical whether the deal will be signed next year or not................as we have elections in 2014 and govt is not willing to sign contracts in this year

As for fearing me or whatever,,,,i don't care what ppl think but its a free country and we all can and should debate

 

[black project]

If the MMRCA deal is signed before election it should be pursued(though I think its possibillity is becoming gleamer day by day) but after election the next govt. whoever wins is sure to rethink it allover again thereby resulting in more delay. MMRCA was envisioned to sore up the squadron number of IAF but with time its usefulness is decreasing. Raffale is one of the best omnirole fighter out there but with India's economy along with rupee going down it is not wise for India to sign the deal though. As govt. engages in votebank politics with food security bill there will be increased burden on social spending resulting in less money being available for defence. I think India should invest now more in LCA and order it in greater no. to fill the gaps. LCA order should be split by half giving half order to HAL and other half order to a private company which will be selected through a tender.

 

[black project]

About FGFA: I don't think it will be available any time before 2022 for India that is also the first production version not the IOC(note that I am talking of Indian version not the single seat pakfa which is the Russian version). Then don't let your hopes up regarding ToT in FGFA. Have anyone ever thought after so many years of licence manufacturing with ToT from Russia why we are not able to develop even a decent trainer let alone Tejas and kaberi. No one will give us their state of the art tech not even Russia, we are only a cash cow to them. Have any one noticed FGFA is a 50:50 JV but what is the 50% workshare India gets in return. India is now purchasing only 144 pakfa not FGFA which will be Su 30mki allover again. IOC date of pakfa for Russian air force is 2018 with the same engine as the prototype. The new engine will arrive in 2020 though date slip may occur. Can you imagine India accepting pakfa with the current engine. So for all purposes FGFA will arrive beyond 2022 for IAF and that also with a licensed assembly as Su 30mki.