Is being Anti-Islam the same as Pro-Indian?

[KS]

I believe a balancing act is actually needed. It is no secret that Hindus in Pakistan and Muslims in India face the worst persecution..

I stopped reading after this.

There is no comparison b/n condition of hindus in Pak and Muslims in India.

 

[haviZsultan]

More funny stuff:

Karnataka's Rs17 crore prayer for rain!

Karnataka muzrai minister Kota Srinivas Poojari is a worried man. The monsoon sky – alternating between grey and blue, but shedding very little rain – has got him worried.

But while most of us can do nothing except wait for the rain, the minister, it seems, decided that he has had enough. Poojari is not going to sit idle and twiddle his thumbs any longer. The minister has decided to intervene. How? He has decided to placate rain God Varuna.

In an announcement that was bizarre and baffling, the minister on Friday ordered special pujas to be conducted in over 34,000 temples coming under his department across the state to please the rain God. Needless to say, the exercise is not going to come cheap: the total expenditure for the pujas could cost over Rs 17 crore.

The muzrai (department of religious and charitable endowments) minister said a special puja and homa will be conducted on July 27 and August 2. Temples with water bodies and located near rivers will have to conduct parjanya japa (special prayer for rain God), homa and a special puja. Other temples will have to perform jalabhisheka puja (showering holy water on idol).

An order to this effect has been issued to all deputy commissioners, zonal officers, tehsildars and CEOs of zilla panchayats by the under-secretary of revenue department. Temples have been authorised to spend up to Rs5,000 each from their temple funds.

Defending the decision, Poojari said, “It’s purely a spiritual event to invoke divine forces, and it’s a prayer for rains against the backdrop of drought. The government has understood the necessity of conducting such a special puja.”

The decision to invoke the divine has raised questions. Does it make sense to squander so much money when the state is reeling under a severe drought?

Can’t the money be spent in more judicious ways? The amount, if used for development, could have made a big difference to the lives of people.

This is not the first time a muzrai minister has ordered special prayers in temples. It may be recalled that when Krishnaiah Shetty was muzrai minister, he had ordered a special puja to be conducted in the name of the then CM Yeddyurappa. Shetty took back the order after the move was condemned from all corners

Karnataka's Rs17 crore prayer for rain! - India - DNA

Even in a secular society religion does inpinge on the fringes doesn't it? I argue this to fellow Pakistanis who do not understand the value of this system. Religion does not perish to the gentle breeze of secularism. Religion is not diminished with secularism.

 

[zaxcolix]

It is how it is practiced that really matters, that is my opinion at least. The BJP and the RSS hardly practice secular politics and they lay a claim to the political loyalty of a large part of the HIndu population, the only silver lining is that they also do not espouse appeasement politics and minority vote bank politics (unlike our grand old party which cannot rest without creating some new division). But shenanigans like the rath yatra being used to garner political support can hardly be considered secular. As a majority population, the Hindus need to completely eschew any religion based form of political assertion.

Tell me something, all those degradation or deprivations the Hindus faced- can they harm us anymore, can they be revisited upon us anymore? The answer is a clear NO! No Babur can conquer and enslave our nation anymore neither any British viceroy rule and exploit us. But caste-ism still plagues us even today, it still harms us even though no Bin Quasim can attack us today! We must accept that caste-ism is a evil that still besets us and that for many people it is justified by a particular religious text in conjunction with its prevalence for centuries. We cannot be shy when it comes to the appraisal of our own shortcomings.

AND the whole idea of Kshatriya should rule might satisfy your idea of a separation of church and state but it did nothing to remove the caste system- in fact it only propagated it further.

'Secular' politics is a synonymous with religious identity politics. Any one who finds it necessary to include 'secular' in their speech is steadily and surely drifting way from that path.

You object to 'Rath Yatra' because you identify 'Rath' with Hinduism ....'Rath' means 'chariot', 'Yatra' means 'travel' ...it means travel in a chariot.

Here is a picture of Kennedy in Pakistan ....This is a Rath Yatra too. Do you see Hindu influence here ?

We have made a ill thought and divisive attempt to address historic caste injustice by introducing 50% reservation. Now unless you are asking for 100% reservation and free rights for "lower caste" men to have unprotected sex with "upper caste" women and for a share of "upper caste" income to be handed over to "lower caste" , I am not sure what you are asking for.

If you are looking to win over peoples heart and soul ...then removing Haj subsidies and reservations might be one way to look at it.

Today's Baburs and British can attack and destroy us even without visiting us even once. That is the modern age we live in. Its a long complex fact about modern economics, embargo, military power and self interests that cannot be covered in this post. Enough to say they still present a clear danger.

As to appraising our shortcomings .....now days all societies does that. In fact that is the prime job for any "Intellectual". its instant fame and recognition.

 

[Dillinger]

Well,thats still politics.

And yeah you should be proud of being a Bhumihar.

NO! That is not still politics, it is religious and caste based politics. These fools go and kill yadavs and the muslims of Bihar and certain political elements ignore these actions then the yadavs and the muslims go and kill the bhumiyars and certain other political elements ignore these events.

Why should I be proud of being a Bhumiyar. Despite our higher economic standing and education- due to our ill gotten gains from the caste system- we were unable as a group to bring any development to my state. Instead we jumped headfirst into a maelstrom of violence like everyone else- specially the yadavs we bhumiyars so love to hate- and rendered our state of Bihar devastated and the most backward state in this country. No thank you, I'd rather be a proud Indian and eschew my bhumiyar heritage.

 

[KS]

Thread started as the perception of muslims about India and has gone to discussing yagnyas and bhumihars..

 

[asad71]

Yet our muslims have and continue to grow. How do you explain that? How does that fit into the hindu scheme of things you ascribe on to us?

Yes yes. Just one example to debunk your claim. Or possibly you are either brain washed or ill-educated. In Pashchimbangla the official Muslim population is 35%. Actually it is more like 50%. And Muslims have only 2.50% govt jobs. They are also far backward in education and economic well being.

 

[Bang Galore]

The Rinkle Kumari case proved this in Pakistan while the case of Sana baji in India. Courts, police all work together and favor the majority group. Relatives were told to "go to Pakistan" by a judge or a lawyer-not sure who. In either case there are huge biases.

What is the Sana Baji case? Never heard of it till now.

Yes yes. Just one example to debunk your claim. Or possibly you are either brain washed or ill-educated. In Pashchimbangla the official Muslim population is 35%. Actually it is more like 50%. And Muslims have only 2.50% govt jobs. They are also far backward in education and economic well being.

Yawn....50%? In which case they should have no difficulty winning elections, shouldn't they?

 

[Dillinger]

'Secular' politics is a synonymous with religious identity politics. Any one who finds it necessary to include 'secular' in their speech is steadily and surely drifting way from that path.

You object to 'Rath Yatra' because you identify 'Rath' with Hinduism ....'Rath' means 'chariot', 'Yatra' means 'travel' ...it means travel in a chariot.

Here is a picture of Kennedy in Pakistan ....This is a Rath Yatra too. Do you see Hindu influence here ?

We have made a ill thought and divisive attempt to address historic caste injustice by introducing 50% reservation. Now unless you are asking for 100% reservation and free rights for "lower caste" men to have unprotected sex with "upper caste" women and for a share of "upper caste" income to be handed over to "lower caste" , I am not sure what you are asking for.

If you are looking to win over peoples heart and soul ...then removing Haj subsidies and reservations might be one way to look at it.

Today's Baburs and British can attack and destroy us even without visiting us even once. That is the modern age we live in. Its a long complex fact about modern economics, embargo, military power and self interests that cannot be covered in this post. Enough to say they still present a clear danger.

As to appraising our shortcomings .....now days all societies does that. In fact that is the prime job for any "Intellectual". its instant fame and recognition.

Why are you toying with semantics? How does it matter what the literal meaning of the words "rath" and "yatra" mean, for all I care it could have been named "the passage of the holy cross". Its name and its meaning does not change the fact that it was a religiously motivated move, to garner political support and votes by demanding the demolition of a certain mosque and construction of a certain temple. Linking votes and political support to the construction or destruction of any religious building or institution is a clear breach of the secular directives of our constitution and a severe disservice to the nation- AND YET you find it necessary to bandy about with words and semantics.

 

[KS]

What is the Sana Baji case? Never heard of it till now.

You dont want to know.

 

[Bang Galore]

'
We have made a ill thought and divisive attempt to address historic caste injustice by introducing 50% reservation.

...and what would have been your alternative?

Now unless you are asking for 100% reservation and free rights for "lower caste" men to have unprotected sex with "upper caste" women .....

Wouldn't they have that free right already, democracy & all...?, I wasn't aware that it was prohibited.

 

[zaxcolix]

Why are you toying with semantics? How does it matter what the literal meaning of the words "rath" and "yatra" mean, for all I care it could have been named "the passage of the holy cross". Its name and its meaning does not change the fact that it was a religiously motivated move, to garner political support and votes by demanding the demolition of a certain mosque and construction of a certain temple. Linking votes and political support to the construction or destruction of any religious building or institution is a clear breach of the secular directives of our constitution and a severe disservice to the nation- AND YET you find it necessary to bandy about with words and semantics.

This should be sufficient reply, Hope you take the effort to Read it.

Ayodhya-the-battle-for-Indias-soul

Rajiv Gandhi was a political beginner. Eschewing politics, he worked as a pilot for Indian Airlines and married an Italian, Sonia Maino.

He was elected as a member of Parliament in 1981, following the death of his younger brother, Sanjay, in a plane crash. Soon after Mr. Gandhi succeeded his mother, he called for national elections. His Congress party won the biggest Parliamentary majority in India’s electoral history.

Mr. Gandhi brought the promise of a new kind of Indian leader. He was young and interested in promoting technology. Within months, however, he was deeply embroiled in the historical tussle between Muslims and Hindus and the sense of victimhood that both sides felt.

The catalyst was a case brought by a Muslim woman called Shah Bano. She had been divorced by her husband several years before and was left destitute. She asked the Supreme Court to force her ex-husband to pay maintenance.

In the spring of 1985, the Supreme Court ruled in her favor, citing the provisions against destitution in Indian criminal law that applied to all Indians.

Prominent members of the Muslim clergy viewed the ruling as a threat to Islamic law, which had long governed their personal matters. It does not require the equivalent of alimony. But the justices had ordered a divorced man to pay maintenance.

At first, Rajiv Gandhi backed the verdict. Arif Mohammed Khan, a Muslim and minister in Mr. Gandhi’s government, made a long speech in Parliament in praise of the ruling.

In an interview, Mr. Khan said he did so at the prime minister’s request. Afterward, he received a note from Mr. Gandhi, he said, which congratulated him on a “wonderful performance” and a “great speech.”

But the Muslim clergy protested, heaping pressure on the prime minister. They demanded he counter the verdict through an act of Parliament. “The Muslim clergy found this as an opportunity to mobilize the Muslims and project themselves,” said Mr. Khan.

Mr. Gandhi succumbed and started preparations for a law that would effectively overturn the Supreme Court ruling.

But he also wanted to find a way to mollify Hindu outrage over the Muslim protests and to counter anticipated Hindu claims that Muslims were being appeased by the government, said Mr. Khan.

The prime minister, he said, found his answer in a court case in Faizabad, the city next to Ayodhya.

The case sought to have the lock removed on the main gate of the Babri Masjid, granting greater public access to the idol that had been sitting in seclusion under the central dome for almost four decades.

Mr. Gandhi’s calculation, Mr. Khan said, was that the Hindu focus on the Shah Bano case “will be redirected to Ayodhya.”

...and what would have been your alternative?
Wouldn't they have that free right already, democracy & all...?, I wasn't aware that it was prohibited.

The American approach ...its slow and steady and is not divisive..............it allows for Afro Americans to acknowledge the contribution of White society in ending discrimination. Recognition to Ambedkar or Martin Luther King along with recognition of the support of Upper caste and whites.

 

[Bang Galore]

T
The American approach ...its slow and steady and is not divisive..............it allows for Afro Americans to acknowledge the contribution of White society in ending discrimination. Recognition to Ambedkar or Martin Luther King along with recognition of the support of Upper caste and whites.

Not practical. The African American percentage was about 10%, even then there are affirmative action programs for them. In India, the numbers were much larger & the discrimination longer. Support from upper castes is not freely given, even your own unnecessary comment about a "low caste man" & an "upper caste woman" is suggestive of that. While any position on reservation is purely subjective, I tend to agree with the theory of reservation even if not always agreeing on the actual manner of its implementation. I simply see no other completely different way it could have been done.

 

[Dillinger]

This should be sufficient reply, Hope you take the effort to Read it.

Ayodhya-the-battle-for-Indias-soul




The American approach ...its slow and steady and is not divisive..............it allows for Afro Americans to acknowledge the contribution of White society in ending discrimination. Recognition to Ambedkar or Martin Luther King along with recognition of the support of Upper caste and whites.

You think I don't know of Rajiv's lustful embracing of the deobandis, I'm quite cognizant of that fact. It still does not excuse the actions of the likes of Advani and the RSS. Congress lived up to its reputation of communal politics through minority appeasement and BJP entered the arena in a big way by practicing communal politics though majority instigation. What Rajiv tried to do was:- 1) morally wrong and 2) (more importantly) against the spirit of the constitution of India but the BJP's rath yatra was not meant to correct this grievous act of Rajiv's. If the BJP really wanted to stop the Congress from doing what it had always done (dividing this nations) all they had to do was act as a strong opposition- ironically that was their job- sitting in the damn opposition- all they had to do was to enforce the writ and spirit of our constitution and the IPC (the same IPC which was used by the SC in giving its verdict). Rajiv didn't have the gumption to try and resist such a move by the BJP or any other opposition party- had he tried he would have found himself dumped on the streets. Instead the opposition kicked up a religious frenzy and went berserk.

 

[zaxcolix]

Not practical. The African American percentage was about 10%, even then there are affirmative action programs for them. In India, the numbers were much larger & the discrimination longer. Support from upper castes is not freely given, even your own unnecessary comment about a "low caste man" & an "upper caste woman" is suggestive of that. While any position on reservation is purely subjective, I tend to agree with the theory of reservation even if not always agreeing on the actual manner of its implementation. I simply see no other completely different way it could have been done.

I put the "upper caste" and "lower caste" in quotes to highlight there is no difference between them (the same way i put 'secular' to indicate they are not actually secular). Its your prejudice/grudge (maybe against me ) that makes you see things that are not there. You might want to think about that.

Practical is what we choose to practice. Your logic is if American had 50% blacks ....then there should be 50% reservation for them ?

btw..when I said american approach ...its logical that measured affirmative action is part of that.

American even went to Civil War over ending discrimination of Blacks. ...yet today the whole society is free of this discrimination. That is the success of the american approach.

Indian approach is divisive that pitches casts against each other rather than eliminate the difference. It results in building temples to Ambedkar and heaping abuses on upper caste even though there is enough evidence in history to show caste reforms being undertaking by uppper caste men like Raja Ram Mohan roy, Mahatma Gandhi, Dnyaneshwar, Eknath, Chakradhar, Tukaram, Ramakrishna Gopal Bhandarkar, Justice Ranade, Bal Gangadhar Tilak....etc. ..its a long list.

Martin Luther king is acknowledged not worshiped like Ambedkar who is now a demi god responsible for freeing "his people" while ignoring and ridiculing the contribution of upper caste leaders and their society.

 

[bronxbull]

NO! That is not still politics, it is religious and caste based politics. These fools go and kill yadavs and the muslims of Bihar and certain political elements ignore these actions then the yadavs and the muslims go and kill the bhumiyars and certain other political elements ignore these events.

Why should I be proud of being a Bhumiyar. Despite our higher economic standing and education- due to our ill gotten gains from the caste system- we were unable as a group to bring any development to my state. Instead we jumped headfirst into a maelstrom of violence like everyone else- specially the yadavs we bhumiyars so love to hate- and rendered our state of Bihar devastated and the most backward state in this country. No thank you, I'd rather be a proud Indian and eschew my bhumiyar heritage.

Thats your choice dude and let me tell you,landowning farmers are the most aggressive people in all of the subcontinent and one has to be to protect the land.

The Bhumihars,Yadavs and Muslims are the power groups in Bihar and if they are indulging in open violence,it is for their survival.

I dont understand the ill gotten gains from the caste system,what are those ill gotten gains?

I know many Bhumihars myself,some of them buereaucrats and trust me none of them are lazy slobs living off anyone else,the service they give society is often much more than what they get inr eturn.