IRIAF | News and Discussions

[Hack-Hook]

Are you sure?. It is said that J10C has been superior to some versions of the Gripen (C/D) in maneouvers with Thailand.

AESA radar + IRST and PL15 makes it even better that F16 (actually no IRST on them and range of AIM120 shorter than PL15).

Even China has been reluctant to sell those to close allies like Pakistan, at least until very recently.

well you must compare it with Grippen E/F if you want to bring out the latest iteration
if nothing else the radar in Grippen E changed from previous Pulse/Dopler Radar to an AESA radar and gained super-cruise capability and come with IRST
and I bet J10-c Flight cost is a lot higher than 4700$/hours estimated cost for Grippen

 

[TheImmortal]

Are you sure?. It is said that J10C has been superior to some versions of the Gripen (C/D) in maneouvers with Thailand.

AESA radar + IRST and PL15 makes it even better that F16 (actually no IRST on them and range of AIM120 shorter than PL15).

Even China has been reluctant to sell those to close allies like Pakistan, at least until very recently.

You are comparing latest J-10 block with an older Gripen block. Is this fair? Is this logical? That’s like saying J-10C is better than 1980’s F-16. I mean compare apples to apples.

The West owns the space in ECW suite, Jammer pod, and targeting pod technology. Even Russia is further behind in this field in some regards. That alone makes their fighters more lethal.

China is still behind West tech in aviation I mean even in public space Boeing and Airbus dominate the world. China is still tinkering around with passenger planes. Nonetheless it is catching up and will one day be on par in many areas. When that will be? Remains to be seen could be 10 years could be 20 years.

Anyone saying J-10C is better than latest F-16/Rafael/SU-35 is just being a homer. No non biased individual would make such claims.

 

[applesauce]

You are comparing latest J-10 block with an older Gripen block. Is this fair? Is this logical? That’s like saying J-10C is better than 1980’s F-16. I mean compare apples to apples.

The West owns the space in ECW suite, Jammer pod, and targeting pod technology. Even Russia is further behind in this field in some regards. That alone makes their fighters more lethal.

China is still behind West tech in aviation I mean even in public space Boeing and Airbus dominate the world. China is still tinkering around with passenger planes. Nonetheless it is catching up and will one day be on par in many areas. When that will be? Remains to be seen could be 10 years could be 20 years.

Anyone saying J-10C is better than latest F-16/Rafael/SU-35 is just being a homer. No non biased individual would make such claims.

passenger planes dont directly correlate to military fighter planes. otherwise the soviets would have been a passenger plane giant.


but anyways, yes, at best we can say those jets ar roughly similar in performance. and i would not discount chinese ECW.

that said, china actually has the su-35 and all the reports/exercises coming out says that it's a fine plane, very maneuverable but woefully behind in terms of electronics to where the j-10C that they practiced with, consistently wins out.

 

[Flotilla]

passenger planes dont directly correlate to military fighter planes. otherwise the soviets would have been a passenger plane giant.


but anyways, yes, at best we can say those jets ar roughly similar in performance. and i would not discount chinese ECW.

that said, china actually has the su-35 and all the reports/exercises coming out says that it's a fine plane, very maneuverable but woefully behind in terms of electronics to where the j-10C that they practiced with, consistently wins out.

I agree.

I like discussing about facts; the first fact it is that in front of the Gripen C/D, J10C won.

The second fact it is that Japan ran to build their own Meteor missile (ramjet propulsion with maneovurable nozzle, in fact they signed a contract to buy the engine of european missile, and they plan to fit it with IR guidance) because they were afraid of PL15.

And third fact it is their propulsion is based in a new version of WS10 (WS10B), passing away the AL31F. So Chinese has strong confidence in their engine.

That´s said, I think J10C it is the best or in pair of the best lighter fighter in the world. But this is not the main matter of the topic, so I won´t talk anymore about it.

 

[TheImmortal]

passenger planes dont directly correlate to military fighter planes. otherwise the soviets would have been a passenger plane giant.


but anyways, yes, at best we can say those jets ar roughly similar in performance. and i would not discount chinese ECW.

that said, china actually has the su-35 and all the reports/exercises coming out says that it's a fine plane, very maneuverable but woefully behind in terms of electronics to where the j-10C that they practiced with, consistently wins out.

SU-35S powered by twin AL-41 latest variant engines, I would take that any day over a single engine WS-10 that is still brand new engine going thru growing pains. Remember $$$ cost per hour of maintenance and maintenance levels of each.

SU-35S top speed is Mach 2
J-10C top speed is Mach 1.8

ECM: SU-35 used Khibiny variant and J-10C uses KG600 pod, I’ll take Russia here if you have reasons why you believe KG600 is better I will listen.

Russia radar variant IRIS-E in L-Band over China’s AESA. Chinese SU-35 till up to 2017 didn’t have IRIS-E, I’m not sure if they have them now or a Chinese local radar. But Russia was willing to upgrade the Chinese SU-35 last I heard.

ordnance available, diversify of ordnance, and pound v pound weapons able to be deployed I’ll take SU-35S any day over J-10C

So again be fair, you are comparing J-10C CHINESE version (NOT EXPORT) to older SU-35 EXPORT version (NOT ONE RUSSIA uses).

Even F-35 is more advanced in some ways than F-22 because F-22 development started in 90’s and electronics possibly 00’s so latest F-35 blocks were more modern electronic suite than their F-22 brethren.

So you have to compare latest variants of each and not pick and choose which variant to compare to. Even US with all its money is still flying 40 year old F-18’s

Now I just want to emphasis I think J-10C is a good fighter. I don’t have any problems with it. But for Iran who doesn’t have much experience on Chinese fighters (outside of I think F-7?) and now a whole brand new engine WS-10. It creates headaches for maintenance where Iranian engineers are already split between the Russian trained ones and American experienced ones. Now adding Chinese fighters just creates a logistics nightmare.

Lastly, if China were to one day turn cold to Iran it would take a lot more work keeping a Chinese fighter in the air then a Russian one. Iran already has a deep engineer base that works on Russian helicopters, jets, submarines, and radars.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

SU-35S powered by twin AL-41 latest variant engines, I would take that any day over a single engine WS-10 that is still brand new engine going thru growing pains. Remember $$$ cost per hour of maintenance and maintenance levels of each.

SU-35S top speed is Mach 2
J-10C top speed is Mach 1.8

ECM: SU-35 used Khibiny variant and J-10C uses KG600 pod, I’ll take Russia here if you have reasons why you believe KG600 is better I will listen.

Russia radar variant IRIS-E in L-Band over China’s AESA. Chinese SU-35 till up to 2017 didn’t have IRIS-E, I’m not sure if they have them now or a Chinese local radar. But Russia was willing to upgrade the Chinese SU-35 last I heard.

ordnance available, diversify of ordnance, and pound v pound weapons able to be deployed I’ll take SU-35S any day over J-10C

So again be fair, you are comparing J-10C CHINESE version (NOT EXPORT) to older SU-35 EXPORT version (NOT ONE RUSSIA uses).

Even F-35 is more advanced in some ways than F-22 because F-22 development started in 90’s and electronics possibly 00’s so latest F-35 blocks were more modern electronic suite than their F-22 brethren.

So you have to compare latest variants of each and not pick and choose which variant to compare to. Even US with all its money is still flying 40 year old F-18’s

Now I just want to emphasis I think J-10C is a good fighter. I don’t have any problems with it. But for Iran who doesn’t have much experience on Chinese fighters (outside of I think F-7?) and now a whole brand new engine WS-10. It creates headaches for maintenance where Iranian engineers are already split between the Russian trained ones and American experienced ones. Now adding Chinese fighters just creates a logistics nightmare.

Lastly, if China were to one day turn cold to Iran it would take a lot more work keeping a Chinese fighter in the air then a Russian one. Iran already has a deep engineer base that works on Russian helicopters, jets, submarines, and radars.

You have not talked about their air to air weapons.A2A missiles comparison should not be ignored while comparing two fighter jets.

 

[TheImmortal]

You have not talked about their air to air weapons.A2A missiles comparison should not be ignored while comparing two fighter jets.

IRIS-E L-Band can detect objects from up 400KM away. People like scream “AESA”. But even within AESA there is huge differences in capability and ability to remain undetected to other fighter jets when scanning the area. So while Chinese AESA is an AESA we need much more information on how it’s internals. This is where West excels. Not all AEsA are created equal.

As for A2A missiles

R-27ER with range of up to 170KM and Mach 4.5 speed
R-73 range up 40KM and Mach 2.5 speed
R-77M range up to 190KM Mach 4-5
R-74 AIM-9x or ASRAAM like equivalent

It can carry either 6 R-27, 12 R-77, or 6 R-74

I mean I don’t know what planet someone thinks a J-10C is better than a SU-35S, to me that is crazy talk.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

IRIS-E L-Band can detect objects from up 400KM away. People like scream “AESA”. But even within AESA there is huge differences in capability and ability to remain undetected to other fighter jets when scanning the area. So while Chinese AESA is an AESA we need much more information on how it’s internals. This is where West excels. Not all AEsA are created equal.

As for A2A missiles

R-27ER with range of up to 170KM and Mach 4.5 speed
R-73 range up 40KM and Mach 2.5 speed
R-77M range up to 190KM Mach 4-5
R-74 AIM-9x or ASRAAM like equivalent

It can carry either 6 R-27, 12 R-77, or 6 R-74

I mean I don’t know what planet someone thinks a J-10C is better than a SU-35S, to me that is crazy talk.

Well,J10C will most probably see actual combat against Rafael and Su 30MKI.
And Rafael is better than Su 35.
Then we will be able to accurately judge these war planes.
Until then,We can just argue and counter argue without reaching some solid conclusion.

 

[TheImmortal]

Well,J10C will most probably see actual combat against Rafael and Su 30MKI.
And Rafael is better than Su 35.
Then we will be able to accurately judge these war planes.
Until then,We can just argue and counter argue without reaching some solid conclusion.

Rafael cost 2x as much as SU-35 let alone the cheaper SU-30MKI and loses in BVR to SU-35 handly. Not many fighters can compete against the SU-35 BVR arsenal and the long range radar it possesses. This isn’t even comparing the payload type & ordnance for ground targets and ship targets along with its SAR radar it can use.

As for maneuverability SU-35 with 3D thrust vectoring easily out maneuvers Rafael any day of the week. Though I will say maneuverability Rafael is also very good, just not as good as SU-35.

Lastly and most importantly, maintenance on SU-35 is magnitudes cheaper than maintenance on Rafael. Add in the fact India is getting EXPORT version Rafael and its a no brainer to me.

I would take 2 SU-35S over 1 Rafael (cost) without thinking twice.

Pilot skill also makes a difference, not sure where Indian pilots rank against world pilots, but you have to add in the factor of pilot skill as well.

 

[applesauce]

SU-35S powered by twin AL-41 latest variant engines, I would take that any day over a single engine WS-10 that is still brand new engine going thru growing pains. Remember $$$ cost per hour of maintenance and maintenance levels of each.

SU-35S top speed is Mach 2
J-10C top speed is Mach 1.8

ECM: SU-35 used Khibiny variant and J-10C uses KG600 pod, I’ll take Russia here if you have reasons why you believe KG600 is better I will listen.

Russia radar variant IRIS-E in L-Band over China’s AESA. Chinese SU-35 till up to 2017 didn’t have IRIS-E, I’m not sure if they have them now or a Chinese local radar. But Russia was willing to upgrade the Chinese SU-35 last I heard.

ordnance available, diversify of ordnance, and pound v pound weapons able to be deployed I’ll take SU-35S any day over J-10C

So again be fair, you are comparing J-10C CHINESE version (NOT EXPORT) to older SU-35 EXPORT version (NOT ONE RUSSIA uses).

Even F-35 is more advanced in some ways than F-22 because F-22 development started in 90’s and electronics possibly 00’s so latest F-35 blocks were more modern electronic suite than their F-22 brethren.

So you have to compare latest variants of each and not pick and choose which variant to compare to. Even US with all its money is still flying 40 year old F-18’s

Now I just want to emphasis I think J-10C is a good fighter. I don’t have any problems with it. But for Iran who doesn’t have much experience on Chinese fighters (outside of I think F-7?) and now a whole brand new engine WS-10. It creates headaches for maintenance where Iranian engineers are already split between the Russian trained ones and American experienced ones. Now adding Chinese fighters just creates a logistics nightmare.

Lastly, if China were to one day turn cold to Iran it would take a lot more work keeping a Chinese fighter in the air then a Russian one. Iran already has a deep engineer base that works on Russian helicopters, jets, submarines, and radars.

well if you read what i actually wrote, i did not disagree that the SU-35 is very maneuverable and thus good ar wvr combat, the chinese exercises point this out, in fact they pretty much state that the su-35 is more maneuverable than all of china's other flanker variants.

also the ws-10 is very much mature at this point, and is at least better than the al-31 in every way. perhaps the af-41 is better or perhaps not, we cant say.

and i also did not claim anything about specific performance of each system. only that from the chinese reports the j-10C overcomes the su-35 electronically pretty consistently in their exercises.

that said, at this point china has had way more experience in AESA radars than russia does, with more generations of them made, and equipped.

and yes, the su-35 china has is the export variant, i didnt say it was otehrwise.

once more my one and only point was: per the chinese exercises, the su-35 is fantastic WVR, but behind china's own jets electronically and in BVR. you can disagree, but then you're not arguing with me but with a country that has both planes and flies them in exercises.

 

[TheImmortal]

chinese reports

You mean the country that claims it somehow how has the LEAST amount of COVID deaths among the 5 industrial powerhouse nations despite having at least 2-3x their population? Or the country that claims the virus didn’t escape from a lab? Or the country that claims it isn’t systemically oppressing Muslims and committing large scale genocide and brainwashing? That China?

I wouldn’t trust Chinese reports worth a damn thing. If you have non bias sources actively comparing the two, I would love to hear them. But Chinese censored reports are not viable data pieces.

In real war, SU-35s would win against J-10C 9 times out of 10. Not “simulated” exercises where the parameters get changed to make the outcome more favorable for the commanders to report to their superiors.

But at this point it’s all theoretical much like most fighter jets 1 v 1 since we haven’t had modern dog fights since the Iran-Iraq war 40+ years ago. Minus some India-Pakistan skirmishes.

 

[Samar111]

IRIAF should buy Tejas from India.

 

[Hack-Hook]

IRIAF should buy Tejas from India.

let be honest , Iran airforce probably prefer to buy Super Tucanos from brasil , at least they are good for CAS role.

 

[Stryker1982]

You mean the country that claims it somehow how has the LEAST amount of COVID deaths among the 5 industrial powerhouse nations despite having at least 2-3x their population? Or the country that claims the virus didn’t escape from a lab? Or the country that claims it isn’t systemically oppressing Muslims and committing large scale genocide and brainwashing? That China?

I wouldn’t trust Chinese reports worth a damn thing. If you have non bias sources actively comparing the two, I would love to hear them. But Chinese censored reports are not viable data pieces.

In real war, SU-35s would win against J-10C 9 times out of 10. Not “simulated” exercises where the parameters get changed to make the outcome more favorable for the commanders to report to their superiors.

But at this point it’s all theoretical much like most fighter jets 1 v 1 since we haven’t had modern dog fights since the Iran-Iraq war 40+ years ago. Minus some India-Pakistan skirmishes.

What are the odds Iran will modernize it's airforces?

 

[TheImmortal]

What are the odds Iran will modernize it's airforces?

2 factors at play:

1) IRGC doesn’t see airforce as a worthy field and some stigma still exist against the Air Force with its close ties with Shah and US armed forces.

2) Russia, Russia uses Iran as a bargaining chip. Even now with the nuclear deal, it was Russian negotiators that told Raisi negotiators to cut the **** and stop with excessive demands.

I put the odds of a SMALL purchase (20-30 fighters) at 50/50.

I put the odds of a large purchase (complete overhaul of Iranian airforce) at less than 30%

Iran just doesn’t have the available hard cash (10B+) so Russia would have to finance the deal or accept some type of oil for arms deal.

Lastly, need the political will on Russia side and the only way we get that is if Russia invades Ukraine and gets sanctioned to hell. At that point Russia won’t give a damn about supply Iran with arms.

Arms embargo has been gone for nearly 2 years and we haven’t heard of a single arms purchase, not even modern military helicopters or troop transport planes. Iran desperately needs new military arms transport planes....how long are we going to rely on ancient C-130’s?