IRIAF | News and Discussions

[scimitar19]

No one is saying Iran shouldn't buy Su-30. Iran absolutely should. It is for politics. China bought token number of Su-35 to maintain ties with Russia. Iran should buy a squadron of Su-30 to maintain ties with Russia. That's great. But don't put all eggs in one basket. Russia is cahoots with Israel and Turkey / Azerbaijan and KSA / UAE. Iran won't be able to use Su-30 in war the same way Armenia was not able to use Su-30 to shoot down Azerbaijani TB2 drones over Artsakh after Russia betrayed Armenia in favor of Azerbaijan. The backbone of future Iran air force will be JF-17 Block 3 / 4. No doubt about that. 100 to 200 such planes are expected over the next decade.

Can you tell us how much money China wants per one unit + training of crew + spare parts and maintenance?

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

Can you tell us how much money China wants per one unit + training of crew + spare parts and maintenance?

Should be about a quarter flyable price of Su-30. In terms of servicing, should be about an eighth as much. DSI don't need any servicing the way traditional intakes do. RD-93MA is far service friendlier than AL-31FP.

 

[925boy]

It failed to defend Artsakh from TB2 drones.

Because ARmenia bought Su-30 WITHOUT WEAPONS!!! smfh. so stupid.

 

[Ray_Atek]

@VEVAK

What i never understand, you a believer of asymmetrical warfare..i understand that IRIAF is sitting duck against the enemy they have chosen no matter what..

But one must not think that Air DEFENCE missiles/SAM systems will survive by themselves in modern battlefield, without a credible air cover and State of the art EW/ELINT/SIGINT

Things are not Vietnam always ...even they able to muster an organic capability to mount air interceptions. i would have been much happy if IRIAF invested its own fund to create an unlicensed copy of F-4E Phantom with AL-21F3

A perfectly doable project which offers far more room for improvement.

After all you are operating and maintaining them for 50 Years.

All of Iranian F-4 equipped with Iranian modified j79
Which is better than Al21f .

Modifications ,,/
Inlet temperature of turbin increased to 1100 degree centigrade

Compressor blade (shape and material) changed to inject more air

Ignation box (insulation and nozzles,) modified to carry more temperature

Some video clip show it's engine performance

These modification gave such results that Al21f replacement forgotted.

 

[Ray_Atek]

 

[TheImmortal]

Because ARmenia bought Su-30 WITHOUT WEAPONS!!! smfh. so stupid.

It wasn’t technically Armenia vs Azerbaijan war.

It was a breakaway autonomous region that aligned with Armenia vs Azerbaijan.

It’s like saying Ukraine vs breakaway region of Ukraine was a war between Ukraine and Russia.

Actually Armenia land was never threatened. Though Armenia did support the breakaway region it was far from full involvement.

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

It wasn’t technically Armenia vs Azerbaijan war.

It was a breakaway autonomous region that aligned with Armenia vs Azerbaijan.

It’s like saying Ukraine vs breakaway region of Ukraine was a war between Ukraine and Russia.

Actually Armenia land was never threatened. Though Armenia did support the breakaway region it was far from full involvement.

Armenia fought on Artsakh side. They used Smerch, Tor M2K. One of their Su-25 was shot down. In total more than 4,000 Armenian soldiers and nearly 3,000 Azerbaijani soldiers were killed in a month long war.

Also, it was the Armenian prime minister who signed the peace treaty ending the war. So we can safely say it was Armenia that was at war with Azerbaijan.

 

[sha ah]

I kept careful track of that conflict. Azerbaijan lost atleast 5000. There's a good reason why Aliev refused to release casualty counts until the very end. Some analysts estimate Azerbaijan even lost 7000-10,000+ but who knows. When you're dealing with an authoritarian regime you never know.

Anyways, Armenians lost that war because they failed to keep up with Azerbaijan's procurement of advanced weapons systems including upgrading their missiles systems, air defense systems & most importantly they failed to acquire UAVs. Armenians are allied with Russia but specially with Iran right beside them, they could have easily acquired all of this technology

In previous wars over that same enclave, the Azeri army was hesitant to send jets into Armenian airspace because Armenia has an airforce that's more or less on par and then there's the risk of air defenses shooting down their jets. Fighter jets, even Soviet models cost tens of millions and it takes years and millions more to train a good pilot. Sending fighter jets into a highly contested airspace was too great of a risk.

Realistically the Armenians shot down 200 aircrafts during the short conflict. Most of those were loitering munitions but they also shot down helicopters and combat drones, surveillance drones and more. See that's what really made the difference. Because drone are relatively cheap and expendable compared to fighter jets, the Azeri military had no reservations about sending swarms of them into Armenian territory, saturating the airspace, overwhelming Armenian troops.

The Armenians on the other hand couldn't respond with drones of their own on the same scale. If the Armenians had procured 20 or so Iranian Karrar drones, which is basically like a missile that can hit targets, which also carries an air to air missiles onboard, they could have shot down tons of Azeri drones. Add to that 100-200 Iranian Kamikazi drones, the same ones the Houthis have used to great success against the Saudis and honestly the Armenians would have fared MUCH better.

However it wasn't just the lack of UAV's or not upgrading missiles / SAMs that hurt the Armenians. The Armenians made the mistake of moving large convoys of troops in large columns, out in the open. Considering the real risk that Azeri drones posed, they should have moved their troops far apart from each other, through underground tunnels. The Armenians had some trenches, but they were shallow trenches, not deep ones that would ideally be connected to a network. The Armenians also failed to conceal any of their weapons. They used decoys, but on a very large scale. Far too little to make a difference.

So in essence the Armenians were fighting a war in 2021 as if they were still in the 1990's. Now they have begun to procure drones from Iran and make necessary improvements, however the issue now is that it's too little too late. Now Azerbaijan has taken vital positions and the Armenians have a daunting task ahead of them.

Armenia fought on Artsakh side. They used Smerch, Tor M2K. One of their Su-25 was shot down. In total more than 4,000 Armenian soldiers and nearly 3,000 Azerbaijani soldiers were killed in a month long war.

Also, it was the Armenian prime minister who signed the peace treaty ending the war. So we can safely say it was Armenia that was at war with Azerbaijan.

 

[VEVAK]

The reason China does not use JF-17 is because it does not have combat radius to meet China's needs. Distance Kashgar in west China and Xiamen in east China 4,200+ km. Iran is not such a case. Distance Maku in west Iran and Chabahar in east Iran 2,100+ km. About half as much. JF-17 has the combat radius to meet Iran's needs but not China's needs. As for Su-30, what good did it do for Armenia when Azerbaijani TB2 drones tore through Artsakh? Did they shoot down a single TB2? No. Why? Because it sucks. Russian export version Su-30SME is water downed so much it is virtually ineffective against any modern drone. Also because Russia did not allow Armenia to use Su-30 against TB2 because Azerbaijan brings more money to Russia than Armenia can. Russia is not a good partner. On the other hand, China does not export watered down version. What you buy from China is original, not watered down. Also, Russia will not allowed Iran to use Su-30 in case of war with say Israel or KSA or UAE, because Russia would rather have good relations with them than with Iran. With China you would have a dependable partner, because China does treats all fairly and equally.

This is what I'm talking about. Useless. Expensive and utterly useless. If they bought JF-17 they would not have lost Artsakh to Azerbaijan.

Your using a few obscure facts to reach some unfounded conclusions!

1st off risking the 4 Su-30's you have against SAM's over a few dinky drones is absurd & you do NOT know the actual reasons why they chose not to use them. And even if what you say was true then its Armenia's fault for not only agreeing to but also following the said restrictions. Iran would neither agree nor abide by such absurd restrictions!

2ndly It's one thing to possess a platform and it's quite another to have the experience, tools, weapons, equipment & Infrastructure needed to properly utilize them. If Armenia purchased 4 Su-30SM on loan for $100M in 2019 and received them in 2020 then that clearly means they did not purchase the proper Subsystems, weapons & tools needed to properly utilize them & clearly lacked the experience both in terms of pilots and command that would have been necessary to properly utilize them.
If the Armenians had purchased any other supersonic fighter in such a manner the results would have been the same and it has NOTHING to do with the Russians.
NO country on the planet would hand you Fighters at cost without strings attached, however, with or without strings, Armenia would not have been able to properly utilize them for a long list of reasons that had nothing to do with the Russians.


Finally if China wants to truly be a long term and dependable partner for Iran then rather than offering Iran a platform less capable than every active American Fighter jet F-16, F/A-18, F-15, F-35,.... in almost every aspect then they should offer Iran J-20's.

If China wants a good long lasting friendship with Iran's Air Force that's what you need to do. Selling JF-17's to Iran would be a foolish shortsighted mistake and most Iranian pilots will hate you for it!

And Iran is NOT a tiny country and range is most definitely an issue however the reason China it's self chose J-10 over the JF-17 goes far beyond range.
The proclaimed combat range of the J-10 is 1450km vs JF-17 1352km so the choice of the J-10 over the Jf-17 has little to do with range!

Honestly, importing a fighter platform less capable than every American fighter in every single aspect makes sense in what way? Iran has more than enough aerial combat experience to know exactly what that means!

 

[EvilWesteners]

All of Iranian F-4 equipped with Iranian modified j79
Which is better than Al21f .

Modifications ,,/
Inlet temperature of turbin increased to 1100 degree centigrade

Compressor blade (shape and material) changed to inject more air

Ignation box (insulation and nozzles,) modified to carry more temperature

Some video clip show it's engine performance

These modification gave such results that Al21f replacement forgotted.

First, I start by saying that I have no desire to insult you or offend you in any way, but I just have to speak based on my knowledge of engines and my decades of experience at RR.

To compare J79 to AL21F, is a total utter nonsense. The GE engine is a 2nd gen engine, the Russian engine is a 3rd gen engine. They weight the same, although GE is 17/11 and the AL is a 24/17 (afterburner vs military power). The only thing I like about the GE engine is the PCC (pre-compression cooling with distilled water and oxidizers for higher altitude flight, e.g. 80,000 ft). Other than that, it is like comparing a Ferrari to a Ford.

Ignition box temp increase ???? umm. Sorry, this does not work on me. It's armature talk.

Even if Iran added single piece frontal fan to reduce the noise, even if they used blisks (2018 implementation technology) with blade temperature reducing covering, even if they used the most advanced combustors and low turbine stage, it is still the single spool J79 is a J79 and will always be a J79, with huge limitations. This was the most advanced engine of 1960s. That's all.

Compressor blades itself (without re-engineering of flow) cannot be modified to give a huge air injection for a worthy performance increase.

I am sorry, you are talking total utter nonsense. I hate to say anything that may insult someone on this forum. Not my style, but I just have to say how ridiculous your post is, in terms of reality and engineering.

Please don't hold that against me. I am just trying to be helpful.

I personally don't think much of either engine. I much prefer R35 (in Mig 23) with a frontal fan connected to the power source of the engine to generate a flow (momentum air displacement) with variable nozzle before it enters the front of the engine, this creates air flow momentum and using bleed sensors, reduces fuel consumption (somewhat, better than .98 lb/lbforcehour) - this technique is what U.S. implements with its engines in some of its stealth aircrafts.

With respect.

 

[Hack-Hook]

It is among the list in this source: https://www.thenationalnews.com/wor...st-if-the-un-arms-embargo-is-lifted-1.1041946

thats wish list of the writer of the article not Iran

The reason China does not use JF-17 is because it does not have combat radius to meet China's needs. Distance Kashgar in west China and Xiamen in east China 4,200+ km. Iran is not such a case. Distance Maku in west Iran and Chabahar in east Iran 2,100+ km. About half as much. JF-17 has the combat radius to meet Iran's needs but not China's needs.

why you don't get it . 1350km is the combat range of JF-17 its combat radius is more in line of 500-550km

 

[TheImmortal]

First, I start by saying that I have no desire to insult you or offend you in any way, but I just have to speak based on my knowledge of engines and my decades of experience at RR.

To compare J79 to AL21F, is a total utter nonsense. The GE engine is a 2nd gen engine, the Russian engine is a 3rd gen engine. They weight the same, although GE is 17/11 and the AL is a 24/17 (afterburner vs military power). The only thing I like about the GE engine is the PCC (pre-compression cooling with distilled water and oxidizers for higher altitude flight, e.g. 80,000 ft). Other than that, it is like comparing a Ferrari to a Ford.

Ignition box temp increase ???? umm. Sorry, this does not work on me. It's armature talk.

Even if Iran added single piece frontal fan to reduce the noise, even if they used blisks (2018 implementation technology) with blade temperature reducing covering, even if they used the most advanced combustors and low turbine stage, it is still the single spool J79 is a J79 and will always be a J79, with huge limitations. This was the most advanced engine of 1960s. That's all.

Compressor blades itself (without re-engineering of flow) cannot be modified to give a huge air injection for a worthy performance increase.

I am sorry, you are talking total utter nonsense. I hate to say anything that may insult someone on this forum. Not my style, but I just have to say how ridiculous your post is, in terms of reality and engineering.

Please don't hold that against me. I am just trying to be helpful.

I personally don't think much of either engine. I much prefer R35 (in Mig 23) with a frontal fan connected to the power source of the engine to generate a flow (momentum air displacement) with variable nozzle before it enters the front of the engine, this creates air flow momentum and using bleed sensors, reduces fuel consumption (somewhat, better than .98 lb/lbforcehour) - this technique is what U.S. implements with its engines in some of its stealth aircrafts.

With respect.

I have said this time and time again J-85 and J-79 are archaic engines. They are merely learning blocks for Iran.

Expecting them in any future Iranian fighter is nonsense. They may serve some role in a jet equipped large UCAV but not in any future manned fighter.

Unfortunately Iranian engine technology development has been slow and without any major ToT from China or Russia it will continue to take some time. China has taken a long time to get within reaching distance of Russian and American engines and it had the aid of massive ToT from Soviets, espionage of blueprints and sensitive tech from its intelligence arm, and a annual military budget that is currently 40x that of Iran’s.

 

[VEVAK]

@VEVAK

What i never understand, you a believer of asymmetrical warfare..i understand that IRIAF is sitting duck against the enemy they have chosen no matter what..

But one must not think that Air DEFENCE missiles/SAM systems will survive by themselves in modern battlefield, without a credible air cover and State of the art EW/ELINT/SIGINT

Things are not Vietnam always ...even they able to muster an organic capability to mount air interceptions. i would have been much happy if IRIAF invested its own fund to create an unlicensed copy of F-4E Phantom with AL-21F3

A perfectly doable project which offers far more room for improvement.

After all you are operating and maintaining them for 50 Years.

Iran's version of warfare is quite different and far more complex than the standard definition of asymmetrical warfare!

And it's not about belief in any specific type of tactic, rather, a threat assessment of your enemies capabilities and proper cost/benefit analysis of the weapons you are capable of procuring and knowing how to take full advantage of the capabilities of those weapons and devising successful tactics around them.

On paper against the U.S., except for maybe China & Russia the Air Forces of every other country on the planet would be a sitting duck! So what? On paper U.S. navy is also superior to all of Iran's Naval forces combined. Thankfully, wars aren't fought on paper!

And we didn't chose the U.S. as an enemy they chose us. It's the U.S. that has been obsessed with Iran not the other way around.

In a country the size of Iran IADS and SAM by themselves will never be sufficient and interceptor/Air Superiority fighters are most definitely required.

As for AL-21F3 I personally believe that the Al-21's are great engines to reverse engineer and attempt to improve upon mainly because they are twin spool. However, I wouldn't put them on the F-4.... and although reverse engineering the F-4 air frame for R&D makes sense, taking to production does NOT.
Unlike the F5, the F-4 airframe has too many design flaws and Iran is more than capable of coming up with a far more capable design.

 

[TheImmortal]

AL-21’s are great engines for Iran, sure it would
Be nice to be able to have AL-31/41, but AL-21’s domestic production would be a massive boost to Iran’s defense industry and allow for both medium and heavy fighter jets to be designed.

Once you have capable engines, radar, and armaments the rest is much easier.

 

[EvilWesteners]

View attachment 727515

Iran's version of warfare is quite different and far more complex than the standard definition of asymmetrical warfare!

And it's not about belief in any specific type of tactic, rather, a threat assessment of your enemies capabilities and proper cost/benefit analysis of the weapons you are capable of procuring and knowing how to take full advantage of the capabilities of those weapons and devising successful tactics around them.

On paper against the U.S., except for maybe China & Russia the Air Forces of every other country on the planet would be a sitting duck! So what? On paper U.S. navy is also superior to all of Iran's Naval forces combined. Thankfully, wars aren't fought on paper!

And we didn't chose the U.S. as an enemy they chose us. It's the U.S. that has been obsessed with Iran not the other way around.

In a country the size of Iran IADS and SAM by themselves will never be sufficient and interceptor/Air Superiority fighters are most definitely required.

As for AL-21F3 I personally believe that the Al-21's are great engines to reverse engineer and attempt to improve upon mainly because they are twin spool. However, I wouldn't put them on the F-4.... and although reverse engineering the F-4 air frame for R&D makes sense, taking to production does NOT.
Unlike the F5, the F-4 airframe has too many design flaws and Iran is more than capable of coming up with a far more capable design.

As usual, very good point, by Vevak.

I am not a fan of AL21, but I much prefer it than J79. It has non-afterburner thrust that is the same as the J79 afterburner thrust, hence huge "mission" capability improvement (better range with non-afterburner) and higher take-off weight (more fuel for the mission, hence range) with higher afterburner thrust. Overall AL21 has had slightly better reliability than J79. Iran knows this engine really well. They have used it for 30+ years, in Su24s, Su22.

I am more of a fan of R-35 (mig 23). I have seen this engine in Germany and talked to German engineers researching actu-table on these, and their comments about this engine and how it can be improved. They were so impressed by this engine. It is a 3rd gen engine similar as Al21, but has more thrust, shorter, and has upgrade path and in my opinion, the benefits "may be" outweighs the negatives, e.g. higher complexity and higher fuel consumption. Turbojet suits Iran as it has a lot less complexity, fewer parts, years of experience, and Iran can constantly modify it until it masters engine design and development, e.g. adding PCC, single piece fan, blisk, compression BCT, and a host of other modifications to test and play with. Since Iran is and will remain under sanctions, and it has a robust refinery capacity for jet fuel, then turbojet would be my choice of compromise for the benefits it gives Iranian AF.

The British and RR have done huge numbers of projects with regards to F4D. I heard someone say, about 60+. In fact they have a F4 with turbofan developed and used for years. They also had a few prototypes that had the tail chopped off, and converted to a delta wing. I heard they had a team working in Rugby (near Coventry, central England) in 1970s and part of 80s, working on F4 modification projects, some contributing to some of the design aspects of Eurofighter.

See attached photoshop-ed image.

As a Russian expert once said, " ... U.S. is foolish to want to pick a fight with Iran, as there is no need to make such an important country your permanent enemy considering Iranian culture of Never Forget, Never Forgive".

Israel who was behind Pompeo's drive to get Trump to assassinate Suleimani, wanted to achieve exactly that. U.S. military knew how stupid that was. CIA just loves murdering, they don't care. From 3,000+ rendition kidnapping after 9/11 (more than 2,000 were handed to Jordan and Egypt dungeon interrogation masters) and about 500+ sent to Guantanamo, and about 500ish were just interrogated and assassinated on the spot.

Iran has many enemies, within and without. Rohani (from what I hear from the inside) has been a nightmare for Iranian independence until the Trump put sanctions on Iran and his cronies couldn't export Euros into their bank accounts anymore.

Iran must trust itself as did China 30 years ago.

AL-21’s are great engines for Iran, sure it would
Be nice to be able to have AL-31/41, but AL-21’s domestic production would be a massive boost to Iran’s defense industry and allow for both medium and heavy fighter jets to be designed.

Once you have capable engines, radar, and armaments the rest is much easier.

100% ... agree completely. It is just LOGICAL.