IRIAF | News and Discussions

[Arminkh]

I apologize in advance if I write nonsense, but reading the translation done via the web (I hope it is as precise as possible), the Kowsar-88 will have to training of sound speeds .
Ok, now I am reminded of some technical data that were included in these pages with reference to the services accredited to the Kowsar (F-5) presented on August 21st:
7.5 million U.S dollar price
45000 ft max attitude
1.2 mach speed
new ejection seat
100% made in Iran (entire aircraft)

the speed (which could be that in flight dive) the other data listed seem to adapt in reality to the possible performance of the Kowsar-88?

It says training below sound speed.

 

[sahureka2]

[QUOTE = "Arminkh, post: 10736225, membro: 164554"] Dice allenamento sotto la velocità del suono. [/ QUOTE]
thank you, for the exact translation.
this changes my interpretation of the published technical data and the Kowsar-88

 

[pin gu]

@sahureka2

Updated info about Kowsar( New F-5 ) unveiled at 21 august:
*2 different models/types
1- advanced trainer model of Kowsar :

2-fighter version :

*16.5 million U.S dollar Kowsar (up to dated F-5) price
*7.5 million dollar upgrade cost from normal Iranian F-5 to Kowsar
45000 ft max attitude
1.2 mach speed
new ejection seat
*88% made in Iran

 

[pin gu]

@sahureka2

Sub systems that have been used in Kowsar project

Source : Skyhawk military.ir

 

[sahureka2]

@sahureka2

Updated info about Kowsar( New F-5 ) unveiled at 21 august:
*2 different models/types
......
2-fighter version :

but it's always a two-seater version!
in the article, was not a single-seater version announced ?

 

[pin gu]

but it's always a two-seater version!
in the article, was not a single-seater version announced ?

https://www.mehrnews.com/news/4380661/تولید-نخستین-هواپیمای-جنگنده-ایرانی-کوثر-به-پرواز-درآمد

این هواپیما در دو نوع تک کابین و دو کابین قابل تولید خواهد بود که نوع دو کابین علاوه بر قابلیت رزمی، برای آموزش خلبانان در مرحله پیشرفته کاربرد دارد.

"There will be two models single-seater and two-seater ."

so far we only saw two-seater version till now .

 

[yavar]

 

[Sineva]

From 2020 (UN resolution) Iran can purchase legally weapons, lets see what Irans "partner", Russia, is ready to sell
possible that Iran made order and russia is already manufacturing them, and from 2020 delivery can start..Please, SU-30

I wouldnt hold my breath there if I was you,not only has russia historically been very unreliable/untrustworthy when it came to any dealings with iran,even to the point of throwing away literally priceless opportunities like tu204sm deal just so as not to have any conflict with the west.As for rouhani,well he seems utterly fixated on saving his dead deal with the west to the exclusion of everything else,not to mention he has shown no interest in the military

 

[WinterNights]

I posted this in other thread but I'll post my comment here as well.

I have seen so much nagging and negativity. Iran needed to start from somewhere. Of course you would not see an F-35 like plane now. What is important is that they seem to be giving the air-force somewhat more attention and priority now. That is what is important. Yes I wish we seen these developments 10 years ago, but better late than never. At least they are now moving in the direction of development in the airforce.

I actually give respect to Iran for being pragmatic. You think Iran could not designed a new airframe? Of course it can, but it's focusing more on testing these avionics etc on a tested and proven platform before starting to design and produce its own air-frame. Once Iran has mastered the building of components, then building a newly design plane is not that far away. Heck, they're building the damned engine themselves, which is without a doubt the most difficult part.

Let the others nag and mock. They once mocked Iran's missiles, but today, they're begging Iran to sit down and negotiate over them and have annual conferences over Iran's missiles.

 

[VEVAK]

@VEVAK

You are right that getting such a CAS fleet is a luxury thing for Iran as it has a enemy that can more or less stop their safe operation. But what if Iran is at a stage where it can afford this luxury? You gave the answer: Border guards, insurgencies in or outside the borders, in such low intensity warfare this capability is very welcome and we could not effectively provide it to Syria and Iraq in the past.

So are F-4 or Su-24 like the Russians uses better than a F-5? No. These are aircraft capable of interdiction strikes. You have more capability than you need and must pay for it with very sortie. Mach 2 capability, swing wing (Su-24), complicated avionics.
Plus, they are designed for heavy loads. Against insurgents a load of 5 Mk.82 on a F-5 at a range of 400km is sufficient as you will seldom encounter a larger target, most times a sortie means 2-3 bombs to do the job.
I said 100 Kowsar because its about 3 times the size of the Russian force in Syria to make up for the lower capability which brings higher availability. Higher availability is of more importance than load against insurgents.

As for ballistic computer: Russian Su-24 have one too but I'm talking about a SVP-24 like system. Something revolutionary not even 4th gen. Su-34 ballistic computer can compete with. This is the real game changer here and why Russian were successful with their small fleet. If the Kowsar has such a system as they hinted to, it would be the key to keep attrition low enough to be a cost effective weapon.

As for survivability: This fleet of 100 Kowsar would be fragile glass if attacked by US airpower. HOBS missile are the last defense and operating close to the own borders will provide it with advance information about incoming threats. But they main solution is: Drop the dumb bombs, push to afterburner and try to get back to your base at mach 1,5, it likely will be close because you are doing CAS and never fly more than ~400km away from your base. Honestly, the relative high speed fleeing capability is one of the main reasons why a F-5 airframe would make some sense in 2018, main points like easy and cheap operating costs aside (plus decent maneuverability).

I don't think they changed anything in the Kowsar that could make it any bigger. It is a 1:1 F-5 airframe. I also don't want to see an air refueling capability on the Kowsar. It is a cheap CAS fighter never operating in a hostile airspace far away. The overall system would become too expensive if you would want to get it tanker support, that's for more strategic aircraft only.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
Yes F-4's and Su-24's are much better than F-5's!

In Kaman 99 operation Iran had to use over +40 F-5's flown from Dezful to just hit Al Nasiriyah Airbase in Iraq where by comparison 12 F-4 were doing the same job against other bases as +40 F-5's!

An F-5 in the best of conditions would be able to fly no more than 4 Mk.82's to a target 400km away where as an F-4 could carry 18 Mk.82 with far greater survivability

So no in an all out war F-5's or Kowsars or Saegheh or Q-313.... will be useless to Iran unless deployed in the 1000's and if deployed in the 1000's the fuel cost alone will bankrupt Iran's defense budget!
And for Iran to spend 100's of millions and decades of R&D and research to build a CAS fighter just to combat terrorist while the U.S. has been threatening us for the past 3 decades sound a bit absurd to me!

And as for boarder operation for the price of only 12 Kowsars (~$200 Million USD) placed at 3 current bases (4 Aircrafts per base) near Iran's eastern boarders Omediah, Dezful and Tabriz we could instead build 200 armed Sh-129's + pay the cost to building 50 small bases each equipped with an airstrip that's sufficient for the Sh-129 all across Iran's eastern boarder area.

So you see for the operations you have in mind where you don't really need 500lb bombs it would be cheaper and far more effective to maintain a fleet of 200 Sh-129's with 50 of them in the Air 24/7 365 days a year housed at 50 small Airstrips within 100km of Iran's eastern boarders
And that's not including the cost of the maintenance, fuel, spare parts, training, housing, arming..... for you CAS Kowsars

And the only reason you wouldn't put a refueling pod on the Kowsar in a country the size of Iran with the Air Force that it has would ONLY be because the engines or other parts of the aircraft wouldn't be able to handle the extended flight hours to a point where it would be worth the cost.

As for the F-5's ability to run yes the main brilliance behind the platform is it's ability to run at almost Mach 1 (Mach 0.98) without the use of it's afterburners and other 3rd and 4th gen fighters would need to use large amounts of fuel and blast their afterburners to try to catch it which will limit their range!
But standard F-5E wouldn't know when to run due to a lack of sensor capability and without Air refueling pod blasting their afterburners after hitting a target 400km away would be as dangerous as getting intercepted.
And at the end of the day your fighter jet is only as good as the weapons is can carry and the F-5's limited payload capacity and range makes the Kowsar not worth the cost.
When it comes to the Air Force the best way to save money, increase capability & increase survivability is with force multipliers
With a smaller more capable force you can place them deeper inside your territory, you can build better more fortified bunkers for them, you can spend more money on more advanced Air Defense equipment per aircraft, you can spend more money on more advanced sensors per aircraft, you can have them ready to scramble at a moments notice, you can put a wider array of weapons systems on them,....

If it was up to me I would have forced the Air Force to shift it's focus towards trying to build a low RCS delta winged supersonic platform about the size of the Mirage IV because building even 2 of them per year to me would be far more valuable than producing 40 Kowsars a year!
Also building a larger version of the RQ-170 (At least 50% larger) should have also been a top priority for Iran's Air Force (Not just the IRGC)​

 

[TheImmortal]

Is there any evidence the airframe is not an old F-5 that has been refurbished?

 

[PeeD]

@VEVAK

We are talking about different things. You about a full high intensity war and I about insurgent-only.

 

[TheImmortal]

There are rumors that the Kowsar fighter jet was not ready in time and instead to save face, the avionics were put into the F-5.

As everyone knows Kowsar is a trainer jet with a somewhat unique design not a full fledged F-5.

Iran should have merely announced the “avionics package” and gave it a name and then say it can be applied to F-4, F-5, etc.

Physically the F-5 hasn’t changed at all. The two seat, 1 seat configuration has existed on other projects as well.

 

[OldTwilight]

So no in an all out war F-5's or Kowsars or Saegheh or Q-313.... will be useless to Iran unless deployed in the 1000's and if deployed in the 1000's the fuel cost alone will bankrupt Iran's defense budget!
And for Iran to spend 100's of millions and decades of R&D and research to build a CAS fighter just to combat terrorist while the U.S. has been threatening us for the past 3 decades sound a bit absurd to me!

They are just good for Air to Air Combat which they don't have suitable Radar , Electro optic equipment and missile to do it ,, which they don't ........ just look at this project as R&D and propaganda ....

 

[Raghfarm007]

Death to the corrupt mullah regime that has no shame and doesnt mind embaressing Iran and Iranians on the gobal stage on a daily basis.