IRIAF | News and Discussions

[VEVAK]

finally we got a date for Qaher 313, taxi tests of the 1:1 model, before the end of current Iranian year which ends mar 2017.

Don't put your hops on the Qaher-313 it is nothing but a technology demonstrator and in no way will it be superior to the Saegheh fighter.

IRGC is wasting it's time! Rather than building a working prototype of a flawed design they should be working on improving the design to make it more viable!

1st remove all the flaws for example the wings(shouldn't be slanted), relocate air intakes(Under wing), smaller and fully movable frontal canards and a fly by wire system....

2ndly they should build a twin engine version (~ 20K lbf each) ! They should 1st work on building a small working prototype based off 2 owj engines and if successful they can later work on building a larger version with internal weapons bay with larger more powerful engine

Finally they need to accept the fact that if they want a viable fighter they need titanium and this idea that they can produce a cheap easy to produce viable fighter without it is nothing but a dream...

If it was me I would sack the program and look more towards improving the sofreh mahi design

 

[mohsen]

Don't put your hops on the Qaher-313 it is nothing but a technology demonstrator and in no way will it be superior to the Saegheh fighter.

IRGC is wasting it's time! Rather than building a working prototype of a flawed design they should be working on improving the design to make it more viable!

1st remove all the flaws for example the wings(shouldn't be slanted), relocate air intakes(Under wing), smaller and fully movable frontal canards and a fly by wire system....

2ndly they should build a twin engine version (~ 20K lbf each) ! They should 1st work on building a small working prototype based off 2 owj engines and if successful they can later work on building a larger version with internal weapons bay with larger more powerful engine

Finally they need to accept the fact that if they want a viable fighter they need titanium and this idea that they can produce a cheap easy to produce viable fighter without it is nothing but a dream...

If it was me I would sack the program and look more towards improving the sofreh mahi design

View attachment 330001

actually the picture which you posted is pure experimental.
Qaher is totally practical and in its second phase will become an interceptor. the only reason that it's taking the close combat role today is the lack of proper engine.
being twin engine or single engine doesn't matter. F-16 or F-35 both are very good fighters.
look at gen 6 designs, many of them have upper side air intake. do you think you know more than those designers?!

 

[VEVAK]

actually the picture which you posted is pure experimental.
Qaher is totally practical and in its second phase will become an interceptor. the only reason that it's taking the close combat role today is the lack of proper engine.
being twin engine or single engine doesn't matter. F-16 or F-35 both are very good fighters.
look at gen 6 designs, many of them have upper side air intake. do you think you know more than those designers?!

1st off the F-35 is not a good fighter when compared to it's price tag! The total cost of the F-35 program has risen to $1 Trillion USD! The main reason you would put a single engine on a fighter is to save production costs and at $1 Trillion USD that defied the whole purpose of a single engine fighter!
And the cost of the engine will also be more than 2 GE-F110 engines combined!

Now to the F-16 do you honestly think the F-16 would ever be able to go up against an F-15 or a Su-30? The F-16 was a fighter that the U.S. would have no problem selling to almost any country because at the end of the day it posed no real threat!
You do know that right after the Revolution the U.S. tried to get Iran to exchange it's F-14's with the F-16's Iran had ordered! Lucky for us we had some smart Air Force officers that stopped the deal because if it had gone through the Iran-Iraq war would have gone a whole lot differently....

And the only reason the F-16 platform has been a success is due to it's speed and agility because it can shoot and run at max speed of Mach 2

Close combat support is slowly becoming a mission for UCAV's so there is no future in building a light manned fighter!

And for a country the size of Iran light short ranged fighters are useless and the Iran-Iraq war proved it

Wake up! The main characteristic of all interceptors is speed so the F-313 with it's current configuration and a single engine will never be an Interceptor!
and no one is building interceptors anymore they are building Air Superiority fighters

To produce a platform that would never be able to compete with aircrafts built 50 years ago is absorbed and will lead to the death of a true Iranian fighter just as the Skorpian lead to the death of a true Polish fighter program.

Yes the F-313 looks very cool but by no means is it a practical fighter!

And on the F-313 the intakes should be below the wing because it will increase the aerodynamic properties of the fighter not because of anything else....

And what 6th Gen fighter are you referring to? there are so many imaginary designs!

 

[Arminkh]

1st off the F-35 is not a good fighter when compared to it's price tag! The total cost of the F-35 program has risen to $1 Trillion USD! The main reason you would put a single engine on a fighter is to save production costs and at $1 Trillion USD that defied the whole purpose of a single engine fighter!
And the cost of the engine will also be more than 2 GE-F110 engines combined!

Now to the F-16 do you honestly think the F-16 would ever be able to go up against an F-15 or a Su-30? The F-16 was a fighter that the U.S. would have no problem selling to almost any country because at the end of the day it posed no real threat!
You do know that right after the Revolution the U.S. tried to get Iran to exchange it's F-14's with the F-16's Iran had ordered! Lucky for us we had some smart Air Force officers that stopped the deal because if it had gone through the Iran-Iraq war would have gone a whole lot differently....

And the only reason the F-16 platform has been a success is due to it's speed and agility because it can shoot and run at max speed of Mach 2

Close combat support is slowly becoming a mission for UCAV's so there is no future in building a light manned fighter!

And for a country the size of Iran light short ranged fighters are useless and the Iran-Iraq war proved it

Wake up! The main characteristic of all interceptors is speed so the F-313 with it's current configuration and a single engine will never be an Interceptor!
and no one is building interceptors anymore they are building Air Superiority fighters

To produce a platform that would never be able to compete with aircrafts built 50 years ago is absorbed and will lead to the death of a true Iranian fighter just as the Skorpian lead to the death of a true Polish fighter program.

Yes the F-313 looks very cool but by no means is it a practical fighter!

And on the F-313 the intakes should be below the wing because it will increase the aerodynamic properties of the fighter not because of anything else....

And what 6th Gen fighter are you referring to? there are so many imaginary designs!

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Q-313 was not meant to be a dog fighter. It is a low flying ground support attack aircraft. The tandem wings helps it make use of the ground effect. Enabling it stay flying with much less power than a normal aircraft at low altitudes (1-2 times its wingspan). That is the reason why the air intakes are on top of the body and not below. This way water and dust are less likely to get into the engine while flying low.

That's why IRIAF is not interested in Q-313 while IRIGC has placed an order for a 1:1 testing prototype.

I suspect the reason for IRIGC's interest in Q-313 is that it lends itself well to their asymmetric warfare doctrine. It can fly 2-3m above the sea level and deliver the antiship missiles. It's low flying capacity and stealth design will make it very difficult to track.

 

[Hack-Hook]

actually the picture which you posted is pure experimental.
Qaher is totally practical and in its second phase will become an interceptor. the only reason that it's taking the close combat role today is the lack of proper engine.
being twin engine or single engine doesn't matter. F-16 or F-35 both are very good fighters.
look at gen 6 designs, many of them have upper side air intake. do you think you know more than those designers?!

F16 is good fighter but with its limitation about f35 the best thing we can say is who knows .

About qaher well I believe its very hard to use that design as supersonic aircraft .I believe bomber and cas are more suitable for that design unless the designer of the airplane have found a revolutionary way on making it stable.

 

[Arminkh]

Q-313 is simply this in a smaller scale:

Please note the similarities: tandem wings and engines placed on top of the body to mitigate water from entering the engines.

I even think it was intended for sea attack (where you can best utilize ground effect).

 

[Rukarl]

Q-313 is simply this in a smaller scale:

Please note the similarities: tandem wings and engines placed on top of the body to mitigate water from entering the engines.

I even think it was intended for sea attack (where you can best utilize ground effect).

"Form follows function", forgetting the fact they themselves said qaher is for low altitude flights and at it will be used to defend Iran in the Persian gulf, it was therefore a plane designed for a specific purpose and that purpose was not an air superiority fighter but what you said. I think they could ultimately even make an UCAV version as well, for unmanned anti ship roles. As an anti ship role, it is actually a good design. Low flying, stealthy, small, cheap etc.

 

[VEVAK]

Q-313 was not meant to be a dog fighter. It is a low flying ground support attack aircraft. The tandem wings helps it make use of the ground effect. Enabling it stay flying with much less power than a normal aircraft at low altitudes (1-2 times its wingspan). That is the reason why the air intakes are on top of the body and not below. This way water and dust are less likely to get into the engine while flying low.

That's why IRIAF is not interested in Q-313 while IRIGC has placed an order for a 1:1 testing prototype.

I suspect the reason for IRIGC's interest in Q-313 is that it lends itself well to their asymmetric warfare doctrine. It can fly 2-3m above the sea level and deliver the antiship missiles. It's low flying capacity and stealth design will make it very difficult to track.

Do you know how skilled a pilot would have to be to maintain 3 m above the sea for long distances? NO!

Iran's Karrar UCAV can do the same thing at a faster speed and lower RCS without putting a life at risk and Iran's armed version of the RQ-170 will even out perform that so why waist time and resources?

And of course IRIAF wont order it! It's useless!

 

[scythian500]

OWJ Turbojet engine testing video;

http://www.mashreghnews.ir/fa/news/621260/فیلم-کارگاه-ساخت-موتور-توربوجت-اوج

 

[Arminkh]

Do you know how skilled a pilot would have to be to maintain 3 m above the sea for long distances? NO!

Iran's Karrar UCAV can do the same thing at a faster speed and lower RCS without putting a life at risk and Iran's armed version of the RQ-170 will even out perform that so why waist time and resources?

And of course IRIAF wont order it! It's useless!

Have you ever heard of the operation "Dam Busters"? In WWII, British Royal Airforce used bouncing bombs against German dams to bypass its protective fence and hit the structure. For it to work, they had to fly at a very specific height above the water level of the lake behind the dam (5-6m) and keep it steady and then at a certain distance and certain speed release the bomb. To keep the bomber at the required height, at the absence of modern electronics, they used two spot lights at the bottom of the bomber that pointed towards earth at an angle so that at the exact same altitude their light merged.

Now do you think Iranian pilots are any less skilled than those pilots and you are totally ignoring use of modern avionics to keep the airplane steady. This Soviet era ship buster could do that so can Q-313:

And with your logic, we can rule out any use for IRGC fast attack boats because they will put life of their crew at risk by getting close to enemy fleet while Karrar can do the same??? No. drones may work against some barefoot zombies but it never works against an advanced army. They can be hacked, their com link can be jammed and then they are useless. Drones still can't replace manned aircraft until the day that their AI is at least as capable of a 5 year old child.

And of course IRAF will not order it. The difference between Iran regular army and IRGC and that they are actually lagging behind IRGC is that one is thinking out of the box and the other one is trying to imitate their foe. If you fight your enemy with the same means that he has (and even better and more of) you are doomed. IRGC took a recreational fast boat and turned it into a deadly weapon that nobody had thought of before. They will do the same with Q-313 as well and show the world that you can use cheap and smart designs for totally different purpose. Q-313 can easily replace their flying boats that they currently are using.

Have some imagination my friend.

 

[Samak]

IRAF made clear what they want when they asked Su30 ...
IRAF want heavy multi role fighter with two engine and long range .... They even reject j10 and Mig 29-35 , so Qaher 313 doesn't have any place in IRAF ....

 

[VEVAK]

F16 is good fighter but with its limitation about f35 the best thing we can say is who knows .

About qaher well I believe its very hard to use that design as supersonic aircraft .I believe bomber and cas are more suitable for that design unless the designer of the airplane have found a revolutionary way on making it stable.

Have you ever heard of the operation "Dam Busters"? In WWII, British Royal Airforce used bouncing bombs against German dams to bypass its protective fence and hit the structure. For it to work, they had to fly at a very specific height above the water level of the lake behind the dam (5-6m) and keep it steady and then at a certain distance and certain speed release the bomb. To keep the bomber at the required height, at the absence of modern electronics, they used two spot lights at the bottom of the bomber that pointed towards earth at an angle so that at the exact same altitude their light merged.

Now do you think Iranian pilots are any less skilled than those pilots and you are totally ignoring use of modern avionics to keep the airplane steady. This Soviet era ship buster could do that so can Q-313:

And with your logic, we can rule out any use for IRGC fast attack boats because they will put life of their crew at risk by getting close to enemy fleet while Karrar can do the same??? No. drones may work against some barefoot zombies but it never works against an advanced army. They can be hacked, their com link can be jammed and then they are useless. Drones still can't replace manned aircraft until the day that their AI is at least as capable of a 5 year old child.

And of course IRAF will not order it. The difference between Iran regular army and IRGC and that they are actually lagging behind IRGC is that one is thinking out of the box and the other one is trying to imitate their foe. If you fight your enemy with the same means that he has (and even better and more of) you are doomed. IRGC took a recreational fast boat and turned it into a deadly weapon that nobody had thought of before. They will do the same with Q-313 as well and show the world that you can use cheap and smart designs for totally different purpose. Q-313 can easily replace their flying boats that they currently are using.

Have some imagination my friend.

Your wrong!

If you knew more about the so called Caspian Sea monster you wouldn't have even brought it up!

F-313 is a light fighter the KM (Caspian Sea Monster) is only a ground effect vehicle with a maximum altitude of ~50 ft! It's not an Aircraft capable of flight

F-313 was built to takeoff from an airstrip not the water!

This is a ground effect vehicle

This is a light fighter jet

And it can not land in the water so NO Iranian pilots can't use it to fly 5 meters up for long distances and that is a FACT

 

[Fafnir]

IRAF made clear what they want when they asked Su30 ...
IRAF want heavy multi role fighter with two engine and long range .... They even reject j10 and Mig 29-35 , so Qaher 313 doesn't have any place in IRAF ....

Agreed,now let us hope they get them [su30]

 

[Arminkh]

Your wrong!

If you knew more about the so called Caspian Sea monster you wouldn't have even brought it up!

F-313 is a light fighter the KM (Caspian Sea Monster) is only a ground effect vehicle with a maximum altitude of ~50 ft! It's not an Aircraft capable of flight

F-313 was built to takeoff from an airstrip not the water!

This is a ground effect vehicle

View attachment 330409


This is a light fighter jet

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And it can not land in the water so NO Iranian pilots can't use it to fly 5 meters up for long distances and that is a FACT

I know that is a ground effect vehicle. I mentioned that myself above and Q-313 is also designed to benefit from it. it has tandem wing design that is one of the three ways of utilizing ground effect:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_vehicle

There is no other justification for using a tandem wing design if you don't want to use the ground effect as you are only increasing the drag force without any justification.

And that's the only reason why you would put the engine air intakes above the body as it will prevent it from high g maneuvers as the engine will suffocate in high angle of attack in this kind of design.

So because of the above two characteristics, Q-313 is designed mainly as a ground effect vehicle. My claim is consistent with its designer opinion.
Hopefully you take the word of its designer for a fact:

http://www.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=13911124000700

مدیرعامل صها افزود: البته قابلیت ویژه‌ای که برای قاهر تعریف شده، پرواز در ارتفاع پست است؛ قابلیتی که در نمونه‌های مشابه در دنیا دیده نمی شود.

پروانه تصریح کرد: ارتفاع پست، ارتفاعی است که بتوان در آن از شرایط Ground effect (اثرسطح) یک سطح استفاده کرد که عمده جنگنده ها در این شرایط دچار اشکال می‌شوند چراکه طراحی آنها برای مراحل بعد از گراند افکت صورت می‌گیرد. این همان نکته ایست که شما وقتی می خواهید از یک محصول استفاده کنید، شرایطی که طراحان آن تجهیزات در نظر گرفتند، به شما تحمیل میشود ولی ما با طراحی بومی این جنگنده توانستیم از این مانع عبور کنیم.

Even he says it is primarily a ground effect vehicle.

And being a ground effect vehicle doesn't mean it can't fly at higher altitude. Even that Caspian sea monster could fly above its ground effect altitude but for that to happen it had to burn a lot of fuel which was not economical. It performed best at its ground level effect range.

You don't need to be able to land on water in order to fly 3-5 m above sea level. Cruise missiles do that without a pilot and/or the ability to land in sea. The same control system that keeps the cruise missile steady above water, can keep Q-313 above water as well. It's a simple avionics system. You may call it an assisted pilot system that engages when you are below a certain altitude. So don't worry about our pilots

 

[Hack-Hook]

Your wrong!

am I ?
let look at some similar design
Boeing Bird of Prey: Weight 3,356 kg, Speed 482km , Powerplant: 1 × Pratt & Whitney Canada JT15D-5C 3,190 lbf (14.2 kN)
Lockheed Have Blue: Weight 5,670 kg, Speed 966km, Powerplant: 2 × General Electric J85-GE-4A turbojets 2,950 lbf (13.1 kN) each
Northrop Tacit Blue : weight: 13,606 kg, Speed 462 km, Powerplant: 2 × Garrett ATF3-6 high-bypass turbofans, 5,440 lbf (24 kN) each
Lockheed F-117 Nighthawk: weight: 23,800 kg, Speed Mach 0.92, Powerplant: 2 × General Electric F404-F1D2 turbofans, 10,600 lbf (48.0 kN) each

IAIO Qaher-313 : PowerPlanet Owj (Based on GE J85-GE-21) 3,500 lbf (16 kN) Weight:At least 4000kg Speed ?

you yourself can fill that ? in front of speed
two j-85 even cant make f-5 go supersonic without afterburner and that airplane is a lot more suitable for high speed so let not talk bout a single engine based on J-85 without afterburner.