IRIAF | News and Discussions

[Stryker1982]

All wars are instructive, but some are more so than others. In military academies worldwide, the Vietnam War and Desert Storm are used to show there must be separation between the political and the military. NATO operations over Yugoslavia is what happened when that mistake is made again. In Viet Nam, there was no 'partial' win for the US military. It was total to the point that after the war, even the NVA leadership admitted it, but when they said it did not matter, it was in the context of the failure to align political goals and military objectives, unlike the way the North Vietnamese leadership did with the NVA.

In Viet Nam, air power came very close to pressuring an opponent towards capitulation. The Rolling Thunder bombing campaign compelled the NVN to plea for 'negotiations' even though all sides knew it was nothing more than a plea for respite until NVN recovered its supplies from China and the Soviets, and the NVA had a chance to replenish its ranks.

I know people everywhere love to downplay the US military at any chance they can, but they cannot overcome objective analyses.


And the guidance is immune to countermeasures. Sure...

Looks like the communists are back in your country my good friend.

 

[Shawnee]

All wars are instructive, but some are more so than others. In military academies worldwide, the Vietnam War and Desert Storm are used to show there must be separation between the political and the military. NATO operations over Yugoslavia is what happened when that mistake is made again. In Viet Nam, there was no 'partial' win for the US military. It was total to the point that after the war, even the NVA leadership admitted it, but when they said it did not matter, it was in the context of the failure to align political goals and military objectives, unlike the way the North Vietnamese leadership did with the NVA.

In Viet Nam, air power came very close to pressuring an opponent towards capitulation. The Rolling Thunder bombing campaign compelled the NVN to plea for 'negotiations' even though all sides knew it was nothing more than a plea for respite until NVN recovered its supplies from China and the Soviets, and the NVA had a chance to replenish its ranks.

I know people everywhere love to downplay the US military at any chance they can, but they cannot overcome objective analyses.


And the guidance is immune to countermeasures. Sure...

You hurried through the missile part and KSA war and focused on Vietnam war.

You only need one successful submunition to pass the defense line and counter-measures and wreak havoc in an AC. It will be Huge deal to lose an AC.

Regarding counter-measures:
Routine guidance is based on inertia, IR, camera, Laser, and of course radar. Routine counter-measures are based on IR artifacts, radar jamming, GPS spoof, computer vision tricks like smoke production, and Laser jamming.

If you have a novel guidance which is very possible for 2020, any countermeasure will fail. The discussion of novel techniques is beyond this topic but I am happy to discuss. You need knowledge of the guidance technique of the enemy. Will you ASSUME that the enemy uses IR homing only?
How will you trick inertia guidance which is super accurate in Iranian missiles? EMPs?

All those IR, image based, Laser based, radar based tricks were there in Al-Assad. Iran eavesdropped and recorded the voices of the jammers in Al-Assad. They thought they will jam all the missiles. All of them. They were out of their minds.

Where were those counter-measures in Abqaiq in KSA?

Regarding Vietnam war:
While there is a lot of education in analyzing Vietnam and Iraq wars, your analysis does not show how superior Air Force of KSA did not win the Yemen war.

Your claim was “you will lose the war if you have inferior Air Force.”
....

 

[gambit]

Regarding counter-measures:
Routine guidance is based on inertia, IR, camera, Laser, and of course radar. Routine counter-measures are based on IR artifacts, radar jamming, GPS spoof, computer vision tricks like smoke production, and Laser jamming.

If you have a novel guidance which is very possible for 2020, any countermeasure will fail. The discussion of novel techniques is beyond this topic but I am happy to discuss. You need knowledge of the guidance technique of the enemy. Will you ASSUME that the enemy uses IR homing only?
How will you trick inertia guidance which is super accurate in Iranian missiles? EMPs?

First, the argument of speculation of a new type of guidance is a non-starter. Might as well plan the war on magic. So am not going to waste my time on that.

Second, I have explained plenty on the detection methods and their countermeasures on this forum since '09. Inertial guidance is not true guidance and is actually the easiest to counter. If you cannot figure that one out, it means you did not understand what is inertial 'guidance' to start.

Your claim was “you will lose the war if you have inferior Air Force.”
....

And I stand by my argument. I can make it a little more detailed by specifying the military component of if, but that would be unnecessarily pedantic. Those who are actually objective would know what I mean.

 

[Shawnee]

First, the argument of speculation of a new type of guidance is a non-starter. Might as well plan the war on magic. So am not going to waste my time on that.

Second, I have explained plenty on the detection methods and their countermeasures on this forum since '09. Inertial guidance is not true guidance and is actually the easiest to counter. If you cannot figure that one out, it means you did not understand what is inertial 'guidance' to start.


And I stand by my argument. I can make it a little more detailed by specifying the military component of if, but that would be unnecessarily pedantic. Those who are actually objective would know what I mean.

You run away from the topic to what you like to talk about. Vietnam war is one discussion you always favor but it is not related to the topic.

Regarding the guidance:
I purposefully mentioned that Iranian inertial guidance system has reached sub-meter accuracy in my previous post. Otherwise, inertia based system is known to be less accurate. It is not easy to reach that accuracy. Yes.

Are you comfortable to talk about Novel and old guidance systems based on Terahertz, UWB, multi-spectral etc. Have you talked about these on this forum before? Do you read articles on communication, pattern recognition and signal processing regularly? I should have missed a lot of your posts then.

How do you counter inertial navigation system?

Long story short, counter-measure is not something you can definitely rely on. The best defense is to attack.

Do you think the Al-Assad or Abqaiq missiles reached the target on GPS guidance? What happened to the counter measures in Al-Assad and Abqaiq?

Regarding KSA war in Yemen:
As I mentioned, the fifth Air Force on earth tried to capture Sana’a capital multiple times and failed. Military goal was not achieved. Can you counter my claim?
............

 

[gambit]

You run away from the topic to what you like to talk about. Vietnam war is one discussion you always favor but it is not related to the topic.

Not my fault if you failed to understand. Unless we know the details of the war in Yemen, which I doubt you understand the way I do about the Vietnam War, what you argue about air power in that arena is no better than guessing. And not even an educated guess at that.

Regarding the guidance:
I purposefully mentioned that Iranian inertial guidance system has reached sub-meter accuracy in my previous post. Otherwise, inertia based system is known to be less accurate. It is not easy to reach that accuracy. Yes.

The issue is not about how accurate inertial guidance at its end point.

Are you comfortable to talk about Novel and old guidance systems based on Terahertz, UWB, multi-spectral etc. Have you talked about these on this forum before? Do you read articles on communication, pattern recognition and signal processing regularly? I should have missed a lot of your posts then.

You are throwing up these 'word salad'. One can only wonder if you know how each works, let alone integration with other systems.

How do you counter inertial navigation system?

Relocation.

Military goal was not achieved. Can you counter my claim?
............

If a military objective was not achieved, what is there to counter? I have no details as to the deployment of the weapons systems involved. Do you?

 

[Shawnee]

Not my fault if you failed to understand. Unless we know the details of the war in Yemen, which I doubt you understand the way I do about the Vietnam War, what you argue about air power in that arena is no better than guessing. And not even an educated guess at that.


The issue is not about how accurate inertial guidance at its end point.


You are throwing up these 'word salad'. One can only wonder if you know how each works, let alone integration with other systems.


Relocation.


If a military objective was not achieved, what is there to counter? I have no details as to the deployment of the weapons systems involved. Do you?

Regarding the war in Yemen:
There is not a lot of room to deny the failure of KSA. If you had followed the Yemen war, you would have noticed the efforts to capture the capital Sanaa, militarily. That is maybe why you ran away to another subject.

Regarding novel guidance systems:
I am happy to talk about it in details from sensors to signal and computer vision. I left it out because it was out of topic. If you can counter my claim through using it, proceed.

Regarding relocation
How do you relocate an airbase?

Finally
You left out why countermeasures did not work in Al-Assad and Abqaiq.
...........

 

[gambit]

Regarding the war in Yemen:
There is not a lot of room to deny the failure of KSA. If you had followed the Yemen war, you would have noticed the efforts to capture the capital Sanaa, militarily. That is maybe why you ran away to another subject.

In other words, you have no details regarding how an air force was employed in Yemen. But you have no problems making sweeping pronouncements based on ignorance. But that is typical.

Regarding novel guidance systems:
I am happy to talk about it in details at any level you want from sensors to signal and computer vision. I left it out because it was out of topic. If you can counter my claim through using it, proceed.

You made no claim other than 'novel'. How am I supposed to 'counter' that?

Regarding relocation
How do you relocate an airbase?

You do not strike an airbase. See if you can figure that one out.

Finally
You left out why countermeasures did not work in Al-Assad and Abqaiq.
...........

Not interested.

 

[sha ah]

Houthi (Iranian?) drone shot down in central Yemen. Kind of looks like Shahed 121 ?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1266783704288026625

 

[Sineva]

Houthi (Iranian?) drone shot down in central Yemen. Kind of looks like Shahed 121 ?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1266783704288026625

It looks like a Samad,as this was the type supplied to the Houthis who then went on to modify it to increase its range.You can also see that its got the wing tip wire landing skids.

 

[Shawnee]

In other words, you have no details regarding how an air force was employed in Yemen. But you have no problems making sweeping pronouncements based on ignorance. But that is typical.


You made no claim other than 'novel'. How am I supposed to 'counter' that?


You do not strike an airbase. See if you can figure that one out.


Not interested.

There are enough of available details about the Yemen war to conclude who failed to obtain its military objectives.
You cannot attribute that to Saudi incompetence in using air force.
Was Israel also incompetent in using Air Force against Hizbullah?

Regarding the countermeasures:
You started to talk about countermeasures but you chickened out of it when talking about its details. Vietnam war was a more secure and comfortable topic to talk about.
I did not agree with your analysis on Vietnam war but I do not want to change the topic far away. I don’t think you are old enough to have served in Vietnam anyway, considering you have served in KSA. Most KSA/Iraq vets I have met are less than 60.

Regarding your favorite relocation and an airbase:
That is exactly what happened in Al-Assad. Everybody relocated to one bunker and started praying. Relocation saved lives but the base was gone.
......

 

[Blue In Green]

It looks like a Samad,as this was the type supplied to the Houthis who then went on to modify it to increase its range.You can also see that its got the wing tip wire landing skids.

Iran has so many drones it's insane.

 

[hussainb72]

There are enough of available details about the Yemen war to conclude who failed to obtain its military objectives.
You cannot attribute that to Saudi incompetence in using air force.
Was Israel also incompetent in using Air Force against Hizbullah?
......

The Vietnam war era is over. Iran has introduced new tactics which have changed how wars are carried out right now. Traditional wars are over and most conflicts these days are just proxy wars.
And we can clearly see how the Saudis have failed to defend themselves from a 50000 man group in Yeman and are even losing land. Their airforce is just useful at killing innocent people and kids and cant really help that much. Yemeni drones fly deep into Saudi airspace and target Saudi airports and facilities while the Saudi airforce and air defence are just sitting and watching.

 

[Shawnee]

The Vietnam war era is over. Iran has introduced new tactics which have changed how wars are carried out right now. Traditional wars are over and most conflicts these days are just proxy wars.
And we can clearly see how the Saudis have failed to defend themselves from a 50000 man group in Yeman and are even losing land. Their airforce is just useful at killing innocent people and kids and cant really help that much. Yemeni drones fly deep into Saudi airspace and target Saudi airports and facilities while the Saudi airforce and air defence are just sitting and watching.

Here comes the difference between Air Force and air power.
......

 

[makranman]

Ok, did KSA state their objectives for war before they started their operations? if they did, we can easily solve the issue of "who succeeded in this [bloody] war?"

 

[hussainb72]

Here comes the difference between Air Force and air power.
......

The airforce, drones and the air defences are what shows the air power of a country.
If you have a modern air force, but dont have the air defences that would support it in defensive operations, then you have a weak air power. A fighter plane stationed on the ground cant really detect incoming planes when it's on the ground and needs a radar station to detect the incoming targets and direct the fighter plane to them. If the radar cant do its job, the fighters on the ground are useless.