IRIAF | News and Discussions

[Mithridates]

Using its trust hectoring engine to do that in an air show is something . doing that without losing speed in a realbcombat scenario something else and su-30 can't do that in real combat scenario.

bro flanker family's sustained turn ratio is above 27 degrees per second...

 

[TheImmortal]

Using its trust hectoring engine to do that in an air show is something . doing that without losing speed in a realbcombat scenario something else and su-30 can't do that in real combat scenario.

Oh thank god you showed us that then F-14 can turn a little bit faster than a F-15 and F-16, which is irrelevant since we are talking about SU-30/35. But as we know in the modern era with SU-35 picking up targets from 300KM away and BVR missiles that a battle between an F-14 and SU-30 will come down to who can turn faster to avoid cannon fire. What do you think this is WW2?

Seriously the SU-30 is far more maneuverable than the 40 year old airframe of F-14, not that it would matter since them “seeing” each other means both failed to down each other with their long range missiles.

SU-30 and SU-35 are one of the top 4th gen aircraft in the world and the amount of orders speaks for itself. There is a reason why China wanted to reverse engineer that plane.

Iran will not get its hands on anything better, and yes the SU-30MKI (India modernization block) is suitable for Iran.

There is an off chance China might offer J-31 or Russia might offer SU-57. But none of these will come with any form of tech transfer.

I think a license build for SU-30 along with 24-48 SU-57’s (ideally at least 75 SU-57’s, but Iran doesn’t have such funds laying around so 24-48 is more conservative) to compliment the F-14 interceptor fleet will be the best outcome for Iran.

If the above suggestion is done, Iran will have the #1 Air Force in the Middle East and will have a top 5 Air Force trailing only US, Russia, China, and France. Pretty good considering that 3 of those world powers have been making planes since WWI.

 

[VEVAK]

Oh thank god you showed us that then F-14 can turn a little bit faster than a F-15 and F-16, which is irrelevant since we are talking about SU-30/35. But as we know in the modern era with SU-35 picking up targets from 300KM away and BVR missiles that a battle between an F-14 and SU-30 will come down to who can turn faster to avoid cannon fire. What do you think this is WW2?

Seriously the SU-30 is far more maneuverable than the 40 year old airframe of F-14, not that it would matter since them “seeing” each other means both failed to down each other with their long range missiles.

SU-30 and SU-35 are one of the top 4th gen aircraft in the world and the amount of orders speaks for itself. There is a reason why China wanted to reverse engineer that plane.

Iran will not get its hands on anything better, and yes the SU-30MKI (India modernization block) is suitable for Iran.

There is an off chance China might offer J-31 or Russia might offer SU-57. But none of these will come with any form of tech transfer.

I think a license build for SU-30 along with 24-48 SU-57’s (ideally at least 75 SU-57’s, but Iran doesn’t have such funds laying around so 24-48 is more conservative) to compliment the F-14 interceptor fleet will be the best outcome for Iran.

If the above suggestion is done, Iran will have the #1 Air Force in the Middle East and will have a top 5 Air Force trailing only US, Russia, China, and France. Pretty good considering that 3 of those world powers have been making planes since WWI.

You want Iran to pay +$150 Million USD for each Su-30 while knowing that more likely than not they will come up short against any Air Superiority fighter equipped with modern AESA radars & BVR missiles be it they be F-15's or F-22's????
WHY would Iran do that? If the point is to take out the enemy fighter why choose a battlefield where they have the superiority (And that's in the Air) when you know you can takeout that aircraft while it's still on the ground at a fraction of the cost?

As for Su-35's what good is a fighter when U.S. sanctions can disable them without firing a single shot??? Unless the Russians agree to hand over access to their weapons systems software and allows us to produce a long list of parts and weapons at home they become more of an expensive liability rather than an asset!

Now the reason the F-14's remained an asset in the Iran-Iraq war even after the U.S. sanctions is because at that time the F-14's were equivalent of the F-22's of today so Iran did everything it could to keep them flying which included cannibalizing it's own fleet however today Su-35's are nowhere near that level of technology when compared to other fighters!

As for having the number 1 fleet of the region again in the Iran-Iraq war we also had the number 1 fleet of the region yet that war lasted 8 years because again U.S. sanctions were able to disable the combat readiness of our fleet because we were fully dependent on others and despite the fact that the Air Force took up a vast portion of our military budget when it came down to it and because they were a purchased fleet they couldn't repeat operations like the Kaman 99 operations even on a monthly bases let alone a weekly bases to bring a resolute end to the war quickly!

And so if you waist your money on a purchased fleet then it will be foreigners who dictate how the war ends and not you or any other regional state that has a purchased fleet!

 

[Mithridates]

You want Iran to pay +$150 Million USD for each Su-30 while knowing that more likely than not they will come up short against any Air Superiority fighter equipped with modern AESA radars & BVR missiles be it they be F-15's or F-22's????
WHY would Iran do that? If the point is to take out the enemy fighter why choose a battlefield where they have the superiority (And that's in the Air) when you know you can takeout that aircraft while it's still on the ground at a fraction of the cost?

As for Su-35's what good is a fighter when U.S. sanctions can disable them without firing a single shot??? Unless the Russians agree to hand over access to their weapons systems software and allows us to produce a long list of parts and weapons at home they become more of an expensive liability rather than an asset!

Now the reason the F-14's remained an asset in the Iran-Iraq war even after the U.S. sanctions is because at that time the F-14's were equivalent of the F-22's of today so Iran did everything it could to keep them flying which included cannibalizing it's own fleet however today Su-35's are nowhere near that level of technology when compared to other fighters!

As for having the number 1 fleet of the region again in the Iran-Iraq war we also had the number 1 fleet of the region yet that war lasted 8 years because again U.S. sanctions were able to disable the combat readiness of our fleet because we were fully dependent on others and despite the fact that the Air Force took up a vast portion of our military budget when it came down to it and because they were a purchased fleet they couldn't repeat operations like the Kaman 99 operations even on a monthly bases let alone a weekly bases to bring a resolute end to the war quickly!

And so if you waist your money on a purchased fleet then it will be foreigners who dictate how the war ends and not you or any other regional state that has a purchased fleet!

well your points are valid but if iran wants to buy fighter jet it indicates that we changed our whole approach to an offensive one, meaning disabling enemy does not satisfy our military so we need to destroy them. also su-30s will enable us to do more efficient anti ship missions. and finally i think the most powerful encouraging factor is PGCC alliance with Israel. because with missiles we can destroy small US bases but a country...is different, you need air force.

 

[Sina-1]

You want Iran to pay +$150 Million USD for each Su-30 while knowing that more likely than not they will come up short against any Air Superiority fighter equipped with modern AESA radars & BVR missiles be it they be F-15's or F-22's????
WHY would Iran do that? If the point is to take out the enemy fighter why choose a battlefield where they have the superiority (And that's in the Air) when you know you can takeout that aircraft while it's still on the ground at a fraction of the cost?

As for Su-35's what good is a fighter when U.S. sanctions can disable them without firing a single shot??? Unless the Russians agree to hand over access to their weapons systems software and allows us to produce a long list of parts and weapons at home they become more of an expensive liability rather than an asset!

Now the reason the F-14's remained an asset in the Iran-Iraq war even after the U.S. sanctions is because at that time the F-14's were equivalent of the F-22's of today so Iran did everything it could to keep them flying which included cannibalizing it's own fleet however today Su-35's are nowhere near that level of technology when compared to other fighters!

As for having the number 1 fleet of the region again in the Iran-Iraq war we also had the number 1 fleet of the region yet that war lasted 8 years because again U.S. sanctions were able to disable the combat readiness of our fleet because we were fully dependent on others and despite the fact that the Air Force took up a vast portion of our military budget when it came down to it and because they were a purchased fleet they couldn't repeat operations like the Kaman 99 operations even on a monthly bases let alone a weekly bases to bring a resolute end to the war quickly!

And so if you waist your money on a purchased fleet then it will be foreigners who dictate how the war ends and not you or any other regional state that has a purchased fleet!

Completely agree! No weapons purchase is worth anything if you cannot access all parts of the technology to assure 100% independent maintenance (to the least). And neither Russia or China will ever make a fighter deal with Iran where they agree on a true ToT. The only time that will happen is if Iran is at that level of technology already.
Just look how Russia is breaking its neck to persuade Iran to buy more S series AD systems. They know they have nothing to lose from a strategic point of view and they can make good buck out of such a deal!

 

[VEVAK]

well your points are valid but if iran wants to buy fighter jet it indicates that we changed our whole approach to an offensive one, meaning disabling enemy does not satisfy our military so we need to destroy them. also su-30s will enable us to do more efficient anti ship missions. and finally i think the most powerful encouraging factor is PGCC alliance with Israel. because with missiles we can destroy small US bases but a country...is different, you need air force.

By no means am I saying we don't need an Air Force but we need one that's domestically produced or if we are purchasing one it needs to be a technology transfer where a long list of parts are produced at home!

We Iranians have no trouble spending $150 Million per Aircraft from some other country but come try to spend that money at home on a viable domestically produced fighters and see what happens! All hell will break loose!

Again when it comes to purchasing Airliners its the same! They are willing to hand over $20Billion USD but unwilling to spend even half of that on a domestically produced version!!!! Hanooz adam nashodeem!

 

[aryobarzan]

You want Iran to pay +$150 Million USD for each Su-30 while knowing that more likely than not they will come up short against any Air Superiority fighter equipped with modern AESA radars & BVR missiles be it they be F-15's or F-22's????
WHY would Iran do that? If the point is to take out the enemy fighter why choose a battlefield where they have the superiority (And that's in the Air) when you know you can takeout that aircraft while it's still on the ground at a fraction of the cost?

As for Su-35's what good is a fighter when U.S. sanctions can disable them without firing a single shot??? Unless the Russians agree to hand over access to their weapons systems software and allows us to produce a long list of parts and weapons at home they become more of an expensive liability rather than an asset!

Now the reason the F-14's remained an asset in the Iran-Iraq war even after the U.S. sanctions is because at that time the F-14's were equivalent of the F-22's of today so Iran did everything it could to keep them flying which included cannibalizing it's own fleet however today Su-35's are nowhere near that level of technology when compared to other fighters!

As for having the number 1 fleet of the region again in the Iran-Iraq war we also had the number 1 fleet of the region yet that war lasted 8 years because again U.S. sanctions were able to disable the combat readiness of our fleet because we were fully dependent on others and despite the fact that the Air Force took up a vast portion of our military budget when it came down to it and because they were a purchased fleet they couldn't repeat operations like the Kaman 99 operations even on a monthly bases let alone a weekly bases to bring a resolute end to the war quickly!

And so if you waist your money on a purchased fleet then it will be foreigners who dictate how the war ends and not you or any other regional state that has a purchased fleet!

you raised some excellent points...thank you.

 

[Philosopher]

Again when it comes to purchasing Airliners its the same! They are willing to hand over $20Billion USD but unwilling to spend even half of that on a domestically produced version!!!! Hanooz adam nashodeem!

And these are the same minded people that try to isolate the IRGC and complain about their "economical activities" when the IRGC is single handily putting them all to shame given what they have achieved. Is anyone here going to question the idea that if IRGC believed airforce to an important priority today we would be seeing fighter jets far above the likes of kowsar? Unfortunately, the "Ma mitavanim" is only truly put into effect by Sepah. This discrepancy needs to be removed in Iran. On one hand we have Sepah that makes things like Raad-500 and other hand there are people that have not improved Iran's automobile industry by much and kept it reliant on foreigners for decades! As long as such corruption, mismanagement and lack of self belief exist in Iran, then things would never improve with great efficiency and effectiveness.

 

[Mithridates]

By no means am I saying we don't need an Air Force but we need one that's domestically produced or if we are purchasing one it needs to be a technology transfer where a long list of parts are produced at home!

We Iranians have no trouble spending $150 Million per Aircraft from some other country but come try to spend that money at home on a viable domestically produced fighters and see what happens! All hell will break loose!

Again when it comes to purchasing Airliners its the same! They are willing to hand over $20Billion USD but unwilling to spend even half of that on a domestically produced version!!!! Hanooz adam nashodeem!

but if our best is f-5 and an air force is required to deal with enemy we do not have any other option, at least as an stop gap.

 

[Philosopher]

Iran's main offensive capability will be its missiles for the foreseeable future. No regional airforce could come close to the damage Iran could do with its missiles in a conflict. Now consider how much these Persian Gulf puppet states have spent on their airforce! Of course an airforce also provides a very capable aerial defensive role i.e air defence and no one can deny this. But I think the main question here is this: To what extent will a modern airforce boost Iran's power? what capability will it give to Iran that it lacks today? Is that gap in capability worth a major investment? We don't really know how Iran is calculating such things but I personally believe a modern airforce is worth the investment for Iran as long as that investment does not effect other major programs!

 

[VEVAK]

but if our best is f-5 and an air force is required to deal with enemy we do not have any other option, at least as an stop gap.

Our best with less than $15 Million USD per unit is the Kowsar! Not with $150 Million USD per unit!
With the cost of 20 Su-30 ($3Billion) We can get a real fighter program going and start producing a 5th Gen fighter at home for less than $50M per unit!

 

[Sina-1]

Sepah that makes things like Raad-500 and other hand there are people that have not improved Iran's automobile industry by much and kept it reliant on foreigners for decades!

Sepah thrives because they see US as their main adversary. Hence all strategic decisions are colored by the goal to defeat the US. The amazing thing with irgc is that they develop their weapons based on the strategic need they see and they always go for the most cost efficient alternative which means that they don’t care about legacy as much. That’s why they are such innovators!

our car industry on the other hand is unfortunately hampered by a protectionistic philosophy. The logic is that by not allowing foreign competition then they are helping the car industry, which couldn’t be more from the truth. Rather, such policy is exactly the reason for why that industry is so outdated and inefficient. Otherwise I am more than convinced that they would thrive on a fight or die context, just like sepah does.

 

[Mithridates]

Iran's main offensive capability will be its missiles for the foreseeable future. No regional airforce could come close to the damage Iran could do with its missiles in a conflict. Now consider how much these Persian Gulf puppet states have spent on their airforce! Of course an airforce also provides a very capable aerial defensive role i.e air defence and no one can deny this. But I think the main question here is this: To what extent will a modern airforce boost Iran's power? what capability will it give to Iran that it lacks today? Is that gap in capability worth a major investment? We don't really know how Iran is calculating such things but I personally believe a modern airforce is worth the investment for Iran as long as that investment does not effect other major programs!

bro an air force main objective is ground attack, this orientation brought interceptors to existence. most important targets in war do not fly. once you crippled enemy air force you need to degrade their assets. you need to conquer the land. for that you need to provide your troops with air cover, for that you need to suppress their air defenses. however drones can fill this gap to some extent but their payload is low.

Our best with less than $15 Million USD per unit is the Kowsar! Not with $150 Million USD per unit!
With the cost of 20 Su-30 ($3Billion) We can get a real fighter program going and start producing a 5th Gen fighter at home for less than $50M per unit!

the issue is not money i assume, we need TOT for that.

 

[VEVAK]

Iran's main offensive capability will be its missiles for the foreseeable future. No regional airforce could come close to the damage Iran could do with its missiles in a conflict. Now consider how much these Persian Gulf puppet states have spent on their airforce! Of course an airforce also provides a very capable aerial defensive role i.e air defence and no one can deny this. But I think the main question here is this: To what extent will a modern airforce boost Iran's power? what capability will it give to Iran that it lacks today? Is that gap in capability worth a major investment? We don't really know how Iran is calculating such things but I personally believe a modern airforce is worth the investment for Iran as long as that investment does not effect other major programs!

Yet another problem we Iranians have is that we wanna spend a tiny fraction on a domestically produces product and then we suddenly expect that product to somehow equate to a foreign product that cost 10 times as much!

Another example is our space program! They only fund $3.5 Million for a domestically produced SLV and then they turn around and say look this is why we need the foreigners! And when foreigners come and offer them to send a 1 ton out dated com sat to GEO for only $350 Million USD and they can pay it out for only $35M a year over 10 years total they jump on it like a hungry dog on a bone!

And no one say well if you made the Simorgh for only $3.5 Million doesn't that mean for 4 times a much ~$14M you should be able to build a booster with a cluster of 16 main engines and 16 vectoring veniers with a 2nd stage that's twice the size + 3rd stage the size of your current 2nd stage that can take a +1 ton sat into GEO...

bro an air force main objective is ground attack, this orientation brought interceptors to existence. most important targets in war do not fly. once you crippled enemy air force you need to degrade their assets. you need to conquer the land. for that you need to provide your troops with air cover, for that you need to suppress their air defenses. however drones can fill this gap to some extent but their payload is low.


the issue is not money i assume, we need TOT for that.

It is the unwillingness to invest at home so the issue is money just look at our space program!

 

[TheImmortal]

You want Iran to pay +$150 Million USD for each Su-30 while knowing that more likely than not they will come up short against any Air Superiority fighter equipped with modern AESA radars & BVR missiles be it they be F-15's or F-22's????
WHY would Iran do that? If the point is to take out the enemy fighter why choose a battlefield where they have the superiority (And that's in the Air) when you know you can takeout that aircraft while it's still on the ground at a fraction of the cost?

As for Su-35's what good is a fighter when U.S. sanctions can disable them without firing a single shot??? Unless the Russians agree to hand over access to their weapons systems software and allows us to produce a long list of parts and weapons at home they become more of an expensive liability rather than an asset!

Now the reason the F-14's remained an asset in the Iran-Iraq war even after the U.S. sanctions is because at that time the F-14's were equivalent of the F-22's of today so Iran did everything it could to keep them flying which included cannibalizing it's own fleet however today Su-35's are nowhere near that level of technology when compared to other fighters!

As for having the number 1 fleet of the region again in the Iran-Iraq war we also had the number 1 fleet of the region yet that war lasted 8 years because again U.S. sanctions were able to disable the combat readiness of our fleet because we were fully dependent on others and despite the fact that the Air Force took up a vast portion of our military budget when it came down to it and because they were a purchased fleet they couldn't repeat operations like the Kaman 99 operations even on a monthly bases let alone a weekly bases to bring a resolute end to the war quickly!

And so if you waist your money on a purchased fleet then it will be foreigners who dictate how the war ends and not you or any other regional state that has a purchased fleet!

I can’t bother speaking to an imbecile who thinks SU-30 costs “150 million” per aircraft.

SU-30 costs 40 million and SU-35 depending on package 60 million.

And a few billion dollars is peanuts if Iran gets the ability to build SU-30 and ToT.