Iranian Ground Forces | News and Equipment

[drmeson]

As long as they would give some Tech transfer and knowledge based support, it would be worth it otherwise, it's just throwing money away.

beyond CKD kits Russia does not offer TOTs to anyone except China which is too powerful to be dictated.

 

[Stryker1982]

Could Iran not just reverse engineer what they are sold if ToT was not agreed? Is there no value in that? Come on!

Reverse engineering a 4+ gen aircraft would take a long time, a long long time, and may not be as efficient as the original design. Getting ToT makes things not only faster but also help build the foundation for better aircraft design down the line. Essentially instead of building up to 4+ gen level,

beyond CKD kits Russia does not offer TOTs to anyone except China which is too powerful to be dictated.

Ah, that's too bad.

 

[Daylamite Warrior]

Reverse engineering a 4+ gen aircraft would take a long time, a long long time, and may not be as efficient as the original design. Getting ToT makes things not only faster but also help build the foundation for better aircraft design down the line. Essentially instead of building up to 4+ gen level,

But the alternative is to produce something equally as good, or better, solely via indegenous means, which could arguably take even more time. Modding F-5s will only go so far. However, reverse engineering su-35s would no doubt speed things up as opposed to trying to reinvent the wheel. Anyway, we can agree to disagree on that. The question is will Russia sell to us without ToT, knowing that we're 100% going to reverse engineer one the second we get them regardless? I think this may be one major reason we're not seeing new planes.

 

[Stryker1982]

The question is will Russia sell to us without ToT, knowing that we're 100% going to reverse engineer one the second we get them regardless? I think this may be one major reason we're not seeing new planes.

Apparently not.

Atleast give us the engine though. Would be nice.

 

[Daylamite Warrior]

Apparently not.

Atleast give us the engine though. Would be nice.

We know they wont give ToT, assuming what Drmeson said is correct, but theres nothing there that says we cant reverse engineer. Only time will tell. Doubt they will give us engines but we can reverse engineer that too if need be.

 

[drmeson]

Ah, that's too bad.

It is not. Russian and American habits are well known as vendors. Russians do not allow TOTs of 4th Gen fighters nor do they allow local upgrades without them receiving $. Not a single example exists except superpower China. The TOT comes in form of CKD kits.

Americans have "export version" philosophy which means you receive a downgraded item that will have intentional design obstacles that will keep the client dependent upon the foreign supply of parts and upgrades.

Why is the world moving towards indigenous designs? look around Iran everyone is trying to escape this client cage for the very same reason.

 

[Daylamite Warrior]

Why is the world moving towards indigenous designs? look around Iran everyone is trying to escape this client cage for the very same reason.

The world is actually moving towards a hybrid strategy whereby they still buy F-35s alongside their indegenous jets be they Eurofighter or whatever. Thats what Iran should do with Su-35 or mig-35 and Kowsar.

 

[TheImmortal]

The world is actually moving towards a hybrid strategy whereby they still buy F-35s alongside their indegenous jets be they Eurofighter or whatever. Thats what Iran should do with Su-35 or mig-35 and Kowsar.

No the world is moving into a western ecosystem of military arms. Basically being trapped into ecosystem that you can never escape out of like Apple products.

Even these so called “indigenous” designs are using heavily components from USA military industry thus they aren’t really indigenous after all.

Now countries can no longer buy Russian or Chinese military products if they want to also receive American or European arms (see Turkey, Egypt, etc).

The arms industry has effectively become a bi polar world at this point.

This represents an opportunity for Iran to procure arms from Russia since they effectively are losing almost all major clients outside of a bunch of failed/struggling states.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1571374487450402817

 

[Arash1991]

(....)

This represents an opportunity for Iran to procure arms from Russia since they effectively are losing almost all major clients outside of a bunch of failed/struggling states.
(...)

i agree and even go one step further. I think that Iran can adapt much more Russian technology and bring it to Iran. Iran has certainly done this before, with the difference that Iran is now even in a better negotiating position than before the war because Iran simply has more to offer the Russians and in Russia the need for foreign aid has grown strongly. It almost feels like Iran is cutting off a part of Russian technology and ability and incorporating it into itself.

Russia has alot to offer for Iran specially in fields of Aerospace engineering and Navy.
Hypersonic engines for aircraft
hypersonic aircraft projects
Space Sciences, specially advanced Rocket Motors
Submarine technology
Aircraftcarrier (maybe both can go for a joint drone carrier project)

and lot more.
Both can do combined projects for advanced machinery and production equipment which both sides had to import from other countries.
Russia and Iran can cooperate in the path of self sufficiency which will boost everything in that direction.

By the way...turkeys super weapons programms: Today I read in german news that Germany thinks about sanctions and a harder policy against Erdogan because Erdogan is playing to much his own game agaionst the NATO. For example he wants to join SCO.

I think if Erdogan continues his way.....one day turkey will be sanctioned and all these fancy games of turkish industry will get into serious trouble. On the other hand Countries of SCO (Also Iran) will help out and Iran will get hands on western technology.

There are many critic points against Erdogan from west (not mentioned much until now)

-Turkeys strong Buisness relation with Iran
-Turkeys policy in Syria with kurds
-Turkey wanted to hinder the joining of new NATO members
-Turkeys relationship with Russia (Turkey is even more activ economically with russia after the war than before the war)

Problem for the West is that West cant really do something against this. It is not possible to throw somebody out of NATO.

 

[TheImmortal]

By the way...turkeys super weapons programms: Today I read in german news that Germany thinks about sanctions and a harder policy against Erdogan because Erdogan is playing to much his own game agaionst the NATO. For example he wants to join SCO.

I think if Erdogan continues his way.....one day turkey will be sanctioned and all these fancy games of turkish industry will get into serious trouble. On the other hand Countries of SCO (Also Iran) will help out and Iran will get hands on western technology.

SCO is useless. China is not willing to effectively challenge the West. Just look at how much “support” they are offering Russia right now.

Plus India and China in the same security organization? Is this a joke? It would be like Russia being in NATO.

SCO sounds good on paper, but result wise leaves much to be desired.

 

[BigMelatonin]

SCO is useless. China is not willing to effectively challenge the West. Just look at how much “support” they are offering Russia right now.

Plus India and China in the same security organization? Is this a joke? It would be like Russia being in NATO.

SCO sounds good on paper, but result wise leaves much to be desired.

SCO is an economic community not a military alliance.

We know they wont give ToT, assuming what Drmeson said is correct, but theres nothing there that says we cant reverse engineer. Only time will tell. Doubt they will give us engines but we can reverse engineer that too if need be.

We already have access to TF30 and J79, both of which are significantly more powerful than the J85 but we haven't seen any evidence they have been reverse engineered. Sure AL-41 is a good engine but it's not as simple as "oh we will simply reverse engineer it if they don't let us produce it."

 

[Daylamite Warrior]

SCO is an economic community not a military alliance.


We already have access to TF30 and J79, both of which are significantly more powerful than the J85 but we haven't seen any evidence they have been reverse engineered. Sure AL-41 is a good engine but it's not as simple as "oh we will simply reverse engineer it if they don't let us produce it."

Not only is SCO a security alliance but also the economic benefits for Iran will be undoubtedly more than before. Integrating our economy and military with the likes of Russia and China is a damn sight better than our prospects before that.

I never said it was simple, but i dont doubt the ability of our scientists and manufacturers to reverse engineer the Saturn AL-41, which is better than all 3 engines you mentioned, and yield knowledge from them for our designs. Also if Iran has those engines why are we not seeing more prototypes of Kowsar or at least more than 4? You cant just say corruption every single time, maybe Iran realises that it is a fruitless endeavour to put money into flying coffins. But I admit until we see these purchases, we have no other choice.

SCO is useless. China is not willing to effectively challenge the West. Just look at how much “support” they are offering Russia right now.

Plus India and China in the same security organization? Is this a joke? It would be like Russia being in NATO.

SCO sounds good on paper, but result wise leaves much to be desired.

China, just like Iran to a much greater degree of course, is at its 'sharpening the knife' stage. It isnt quite ready militarily to challenge US, quite like it is economically, although in the next 10-20 years this wont be the case any more.

I wouldn't read too much into those border skirmishes, the fact is India's military is intertwined with Russia, and China and India are two nuclear powers who will never let border skirmishes go beyond that. China has a better chance of going to direct war with NATO than with India.

While NATO has the edge, the balance of power that SCO is providing is what's driving this new multipolar world and making western arses burn. The west wouldnt chest beat like this if they didnt feel insecure or worried about the strengthening of the east.

 

[TheImmortal]

Not only is SCO a security alliance but also the economic benefits for Iran will be undoubtedly more than before. Integrating our economy and military with the likes of Russia and China is a damn sight better than our prospects before that.

I never said it was simple, but i dont doubt the ability of our scientists and manufacturers to reverse engineer the Saturn AL-41, which is better than all 3 engines you mentioned, and yield knowledge from them for our designs. Also if Iran has those engines why are we not seeing more prototypes of Kowsar or at least more than 4? You cant just say corruption every single time, maybe Iran realises that it is a fruitless endeavour to put money into flying coffins. But I admit until we see these purchases, we have no other choice.



China, just like Iran to a much greater degree of course, is at its 'sharpening the knife' stage. It isnt quite ready militarily to challenge US, quite like it is economically, although in the next 10-20 years this wont be the case any more.

I wouldn't read too much into those border skirmishes, the fact is India's military is intertwined with Russia, and China and India are two nuclear powers who will never let border skirmishes go beyond that. China has a better chance of going to direct war with NATO than with India.

1) China’s population will plummet by 40% by 2100 due to inverted social demographics pyramid

2) 25% of China’s population will be over 65 by 2040

3) India is a part of The Quad which is a western alliance to counter a rising China


So China doesn’t have forever to confront the US. US has benefits of immigration to starve off inverted demographics pyramid, where is China going to find 100M people to immigrate there?

Lastly the “security alliance” is a joke. Armenia was also part of a smaller version of SCO and invoked its article of defense and none of the neighboring countries came to its defense when Azeribajian invaded.

Russia cannot even take half of Ukraine, so it will be bogged in war for next decade at this rate or be rebuilding or both. China won’t go to war for the “eye-ran-ians” no matter how “sharp” that knife gets.

I’m still waiting on the benefits of this so called “25 year strategic China deal” so far a couple years are passing with next to nothing in changes.

 

[Daylamite Warrior]

1) China’s population will plummet by 40% by 2100 due to inverted social demographics pyramid

2) 25% of China’s population will be over 65 by 2040

3) India is a part of The Quad which is a western alliance to counter a rising China


So China doesn’t have forever to confront the US. US has benefits of immigration to starve off inverted demographics pyramid, where is China going to find 100M people to immigrate there?

Lastly the “security alliance” is a joke. Armenia was also part of a smaller version of SCO and invoked its article of defense and none of the neighboring countries came to its defense when Azeribajian invaded.

Russia cannot even take half of Ukraine, so it will be bogged in war for next decade at this rate or be rebuilding or both. China won’t go to war for the “eye-ran-ians” no matter how “sharp” that knife gets.

I’m still waiting on the benefits of this so called “25 year strategic China deal” so far a couple years are passing with next to nothing in changes.

1) and 2) are the same point but worded differently. This population decline is forecasted in the west as well, with the coming death of the baby boomers.

3) there is no evidence of what India has to offer to this Quad other than to show disdain for Chinese hegemony. The Quad will be mostly an Anglophinic driven force, without which they can't stand up to China. With or without India both the Quad and SCO can function just fine.

So since we have established BOTH China and US have threats to their demographics, the time is also running out for US to act before there is no chance for them to win against China. I will not accept that the pressure is only on China.

The CTSO and SCO are different organisations and as far as I see Azerbaijan have halted their aggression into Armenia, the second Armenia called for Russian help. Im sure Russia had to remind the Turks about what the CTSO is all about if Azerbaijan were to threaten the Armenian state beyond Nagorno-Qarabaq.

When did I say China will go to war for the "eye ray nians"?! A bit odd that a so called Iranian would mock the name of Iran so freely. Also a bit odd how you dont understand a word of Farsi and cant write a single Persian word to save you life.

My point was China is sharpening its knife for US over Taiwan, which they quite clearly are. Furthermore, why wouldnt Russia make deals with Iran if there is mutual benefit?! Iranian drones are packing a punch in Ukraine at a fraction of the assumed cost. Iranians will be selling IKCO and SAIPA in Russia very soon! It hasnt even been 2 years and youre expecting way too much from a 25 year deal! You are so short-term that Im glad people like you arent in any role of decision making in Iran, or any country for that matter.

 

[Sineva]

It is not. Russian and American habits are well known as vendors. Russians do not allow TOTs of 4th Gen fighters nor do they allow local upgrades without them receiving $. Not a single example exists except superpower China. The TOT comes in form of CKD kits.

Americans have "export version" philosophy which means you receive a downgraded item that will have intentional design obstacles that will keep the client dependent upon the foreign supply of parts and upgrades.

Why is the world moving towards indigenous designs? look around Iran everyone is trying to escape this client cage for the very same reason.

I think you`re forgetting india there my friend,the indians have been license constructing both the su30 and its al31 engine since 2002,plus license production of the rd-33mk engine started back in 2007 as well.
Ultimately tho,I suspect that what will probably make all of the difference,is that in light of all of these new western sanctions russia is likely going to find that its opportunities for selling arms globally are now considerably diminished.In fact I would not be surprised if the us [and by definition the rest of the west] essentially takes the same line with both its vassals and non-aligned nations as it took with turkey over its S400 purchase,so russia may well be in no position to dictate terms when it comes it these sorts of deals in future.Lastly russian weapons have not performed very well at all in this conflict,tho I suspect that just as with the less than stellar performance of western weapons in yemen,the inability of their operators to get the best out of them is likely a big part of the problem.However this poor showing will certainly not help with any prospective future arms sales.
I think irans hand in any future prospective arms deal negotiations may well be far stronger than many people realise.Its certainly far stronger than waaay back in 2016 when the deal for su30s was last discussed,and at that time iran made it pretty clear that any deal would have to involve "technological partnership and joint investment" ie TOT,and frankly I just dont see that changing.
Hopefully iran will use this opportunity to get as much as it possibly can out of russia,because God knows iran certainly deserves it after all of russias stupid bullsh!t and game playing with iran over the last few decades.
I guess only time will tell tho`.