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Iran-Pakistan. The past, now and future.

I am a keen reader of Achaemenid history and Zoroastrianism and took a course on them both when i was at university so can tell you that what you have presented here is not correct.

Hendu / Hendi in Middle Persian (Indo / Indian in Latin/Greek) basically means 'Indian'. It was just a generic label for dark skinned natives of Pakistan and India. It didnt have any religious connotation to it like it does now, it was a racial label for South Asians. Hend and Hendustan in Persian historiography includes what is now central, eastern and southern Pakistan and basically the rest of India. Similar to how the Balkans and eastern Mediterranean in Middle Persian was generically called 'Rhum' (the old Greco-Roman heartlands).

Zoroastrianism never had any presence in South Asia until the 10th century CE when some Zoroastrian communities from Khorasan left Iran and eventually ended up taking refuge in western India in a coastal region called 'Saurashtra'. That was the first time in history that there had ever been any Zoroastrian community in the Indian subcontinent. The historical record for this first ever Zoroastrian migration to the east is a Middle Persian text called the Qissa-e Sanjan. The only other Zoroastrian migration eastwards that is known to have taken place was by the Sogdians and then the Sassanid elite to China after the Arab invasion but they all disappear from the Tang historical record a century or so after their migration and nobody knows what their fate in China became.

In the Avesta Zoroastrianism is tied to the Iranian identity and this is how the concept of Iran and Aniran came about in both the Iranian historical tradition and Persian mythology. It was never spread to foreigners until the later Sassanids tried to re-conquer and re-convert the Armenians well into the Christian era in the Middle East. Zoroastrianism was never spread east to South Asia or to any other conquered or vassal peoples, East or West.

The only non-Iranian peoples to have ever been Zoroastrian at some point in their history were the Armenians. Otherwise, Zoroastrians had been synonymous with the confederation of Iranian peoples (ie, the Ariya in Avestan and Old Persian). The 'Ariya' in Old Persian were the broadly the Persians, Medes, Parthians, Bactrians, Sogdians and Khwarazmians. The non-Zoroastrian Iranians, ie the various Scythian peoples of the north (Turan), were condemned for being 'Drujvant' and so fell outside of the Zoroastrian and Iranian fold, kind of like being expelled from the Ariya fold but were still considered to be a closely related kin to Iranians. All other peoples and lands were considered foreigners - Aniran, by the Achaemenids and Sassanids and so were subject to conquest and tribute to Persia whenever the great Kings of Iran decided to go to war against them.

Darius the Great basically invaded India to extract tribute from them and to subordinate this area of Aniran as vassals that would pay annual tributes in exchange for their freedom to govern their own local affairs. There wasnt actually a direct Persian presence in the three Indian vassal states beyond Darius the Great's invasion of India/Pakistan. You can read about the relations between Achaemenid Persia and South Asia in an archaeological survey undertaken by some historians from Cambridge University. The title of their paper is called "West of the Indus-East of the Empire: The Archaeology of the Pre-Achaemenid and Archaemenid Periods in Baluchistan and the North-West Frontier Province, Pakistan". According to the evidence for an Achaemenid influence in South Asia, which is quite limited, it was restricted mainly to the extreme northwest of what is now Pakistan, near the border with Afghanistan. There is practically no evidence for Achaemenid control in the rest of what is now Pakistan but small traces of Achaemenid influence can be found in some pockets there, probably as a result of occassional invasions to extract tribute from the natives and trade with the vassal states listed by Darius I.

If anyone wants to seriously read into Achaemenid history and Zoroastrianism i can recommened you some books to buy. Although be warned that many are quite dry and academic and are only intended for the serious rather than general reader, but they are in-depth and you will learn a lot about this great period of Iranian history.

Let me do some reading and I will get back to you. Are you Iranian and Persian speaker?
 
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Let me do some reading and I will get back to you. Are you Iranian and Persian speaker?
Yes i am Iranian, but i grew up outside of Iran and never took my Persian seriously when i was young and growing up in a foreign country so now it isnt good at all, although i can still read and write and understand a few basic things but not well. Most other Iranian members here i think are in Iran so can help you with Persian if that is what you are asking. I can help you just a little.
 
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Yes i am Iranian, but i grew up outside of Iran and never took my Persian seriously when i was young and growing up in a foreign country so now it isnt good at all, although i can still read and write and understand a few basic things but not well. Most other Iranian members here i think are in Iran so can help you with Persian if that is what you are asking. I can help you just a little.

Did you do Persian history at university?
 
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Did you do Persian history at university?
Yes, i took an undergraduate course in Iranian history, including a course on Zoroastrian religion and history. I've been a reader of Iranian history now for the past 15 years or so and will always be as long as i am alive.
 
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Yes, i took an undergraduate course in Iranian history, including a course on Zoroastrian religion and history. I've been a reader of Iranian history now for the past 15 years or so and will always be as long as i am alive.

Oh, the reason I ask is you did undergraduate course in Persian history but you say your Persian is weak. Anyway what do you know about Gondophares and the Indo Parthian kingdoms?

And may I ask are you Parsi?
 
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Oh, the reason I ask is you did undergraduate course in Persian history but you say your Persian is weak. Anyway what do you know about Gondophares and the Indo Parthian kingdoms?

And may I ask are you Parsi?
No, i am Iranian.

At present i dont know much if anything about Indo-Parthians. It is a topic that is kind of peripheral to both Parthian and general Iranian history. Parthian history is unfortunately not well constructed by scholars due to a lack of written sources available, or ones that have been properly translated and studied at least from Parthian, Greek, Latin and other languages. I've been hard pressed to find an actual book on the Parthians, most books dealing with Parthian history are in relation to Roman history or Sassanid history (or general ancient Iranian history). There isnt much available out there about the Parthians as a stand-alone topic at present. Most of the stuff about them on internet sites is bogus.
 
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No, i am Iranian.

At present i dont know much if anything about Indo-Parthians. It is a topic that is kind of peripheral to both Parthian and general Iranian history. Parthian history is unfortunately not well constructed by scholars due to a lack of written sources available, or ones that have been properly translated and studied at least from Parthian, Greek, Latin and other languages. I've been hard pressed to find an actual book on the Parthians, most books dealing with Parthian history are in relation to Roman history or Sassanid history (or general ancient Iranian history). There isnt much available out there about the Parthians as a stand-alone topic at present. Most of the stuff about them on internet sites is bogus.

Okay, no problem. Let me do some more reading. I will be honest with you. You smack of a Indian but since this is internet I will go along with what you say and do some more reading in the possibility that what you said is indeed true. You say you did Persian history. Iranians are very nationalist and Persian is repository of that nationalism. Doing history on Ancient Persia and not knowing Persian just does not add but still let us move forward.

The reason I am circumspect is for some reasons beyond me Indian's have gone crazy. They have even opened a thread with 24 hours of this which is almost copy of this:-

India-Iran Relations: Past, Present and Future

If I get stuff I will post here and of course see if it stands to your scrutiny.

Ps. What was the script used by Zorastrian Persia?

What do you know about Gandhara and the Zoroastrian impact there in particular Taxila? Please read this.

Handbuch der Orientalistik: Der Nahe und der Mittlere Osten - Google Books
 
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Okay, no problem. Let me do some more reading. I will be honest with you. You smack of a Indian but since this is internet I will go along with what you say and do some more reading in the possibility that what you said is indeed true. You say you did Persian history. Iranians are very nationalist and Persian is repository of that nationalism. Doing history on Ancient Persia and not knowing Persian just does not add but still let us move forward.

The reason I am circumspect is for some reasons beyond me Indian's have gone crazy. They have even opened a thread with 24 hours of this which is almost copy of this:-

India-Iran Relations: Past, Present and Future

If I get stuff I will post here and of course see if it stands to your scrutiny.
Huh? Indian? chi migi? lol.. na baba man hendi nistam. shoma pakestania hendi hastid . . . khodet kir nakon.. azizam man irani hastam, vali dar engelestan be donya amadam. man ye kami farsi baladam ama hanooz farsiye man kheili khoob nist.. so what?. chera, nemidoonam... chand sale pish tarikhe irani o zartoshti dars mi khandam, in roozeha be daneshgah na raftam vali hanooz tarikhe irani dars mikhoonam.

My brothers will correct my errors, but you get the point.
 
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uch as those of the Parthian, Greco-Bactrian, and even Scythian, or Sakas,civilizations. One temple in particular has been a source of scholarly debate over the course of the 20th century: a “temple of Greek planning”
1
, located on a mound north of the 2nd centuryBC Taxilan settlement of Sirkap.The temple is now known to archaeologists today as “Jandial”
2
, and two academics, SirJohn Hubert Marshall and Dr. Saifur Rahman Dar, have identified it quite differently. Marshallclaims it to be a Zoroastrian Fire-Temple, due to several structural features differentiating it froma “proper” Greek Temple
3
, while Dar believes it to be a temple from the Greco-Bactrian periodcreated for the worship of an ancient Greek deity by Classically-trained architects
4
. According toMarshall, Jandial was a temple known throughout the ancient world, and is featured in theaccount of the travels of Apollonius of Tyana by the Roman author Philostratus. Dar, however,points out that the evidence Marshall unearthed does not appear to match the description o




The ancient city of Taxila of northwestern Pakistan was once home to a plethora of cultures and religions, some of which left their mark more visibly than others. The evidence of Taxila’s role through the ages as a place of Buddhist learning is clear by the numerous stupasfound at each level of occupation, but this role has often overshadowed other less visible cultureinfluences, such as those of the Parthian, Greco-Bactrian, and even Scythian, or Sakas,civilizations. One temple in particular has been a source of scholarly debate over the course of the 20th century: a “temple of Greek planning”
1
, located on a mound north of the 2nd centuryBC Taxilan settlement of Sirkap.The temple is now known to archaeologists today as “Jandial”
2
,. According toMarshall, Jandial was a temple known throughout the ancient world, and is featured in theaccount of the travels of Apollonius of Tyana by the Roman author Philostratus. Dar, however,points out that the evidence Marshall unearthed does not appear to match the description of Jandial that Philostratus gives, and further states that his “spoils” were found withinchronologically disturbed destruction layers within and surrounding the temple, thus possiblyrendering Marshall’s claim invalid.Apart from its importance in antiquity, he identification of the civilization that built Jandialmight help archaeologists to date the temple more accurately - scholars have concluded thatJandial was constructed between the 2nd century BC and the 2nd century AD, during which timefour separate civilization ruled over Taxila.

Analyzing the archaeological, historical, andreligious evidence, I am more inclined to believe that Marshall’s analysis of the temple as Zoroastrian fire-temple from the mid-1st century BC over Dar’s 2nd century BC Greco-Bactrianclassification, but like Dar I also believe that Marshall relies too heavily on the accounts of Philostratus in order to identify his findings - based on the evidence I have amassed below, theJandial Temple may not have been the temple visited by Apollonius after all

Andrew Harris 2012 What Marshall thought the Philosopher Saw: An Architectural and Archaeological Re-Analysis of the Jandial Temple at Taxila as it stood in Antiquity | Andrew Harris - Academia.edu

Could you please tell me the primary script used in Zoroastrian texts.

And I always keep open mind on things. I will of course look into this more and get back to you.

55a21628e5c24.jpg


Jandial — a Zoroastrian temple in heart of Buddhist civilisation - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
 
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Okay, no problem. Let me do some more reading. I will be honest with you. You smack of a Indian but since this is internet I will go along with what you say and do some more reading in the possibility that what you said is indeed true. You say you did Persian history. Iranians are very nationalist and Persian is repository of that nationalism. Doing history on Ancient Persia and not knowing Persian just does not add but still let us move forward.

The reason I am circumspect is for some reasons beyond me Indian's have gone crazy. They have even opened a thread with 24 hours of this which is almost copy of this:-

India-Iran Relations: Past, Present and Future

If I get stuff I will post here and of course see if it stands to your scrutiny.

Ps. What was the script used by Zorastrian Persia?

What do you know about Gandhara and the Zoroastrian impact there in particular Taxila? Please read this.

Handbuch der Orientalistik: Der Nahe und der Mittlere Osten - Google Books
Depends which Zoroastrian period you're talking about. Achaemenids wrote Old Persian in Cuneiform but the Sassanids invented a new alphabet for Avesta (just called Avestan script). Parthian and Middle Persian texts were wrote in Pahlavi script. The core Zoroastrian hymns etc were mainly oral and passed down orally until the Sassanid era. They were rarely written down before the Sassanids compiled the Avesta into a single corpus of books. So anything in Avestan language (Gathas, Yasna, Yashts etc) would be written in Avestan, while the other Zoroastrian texts like the Videvdad and Bundahishn etc would have been in Pahlavi.

Thats an interesting passage in that link. It may well be possible that an arteshkadeh existed there, but the evidence is inconclusive. As for Zoroastrianism's overall impact on Gandhara, it was evidently small if there was any at all. During the Sassanid period Zoroastrianism had to compete with two missionary religions penetrating the Sassanid empire from both West and East (Christianity and Buddhism) and also Manichaeism and the Mazdakites. Zoroastrianism at that time also had many sects (Zurvanism etc), in addition to many numerous cult and 'popular' folk expressions of the religion which were different from what the Magi (Mobedan in Persia) considered Zoroastrianism to be, especially since some of them were a mixture of Greek and Iranian paganism. Since Buddhism moved through Gandahara into Sogdia before the Sassanids started to ban and fight against foreign religions i think it is quite clear that Zoroastrianism's presence there was always minimal. Your passage also pretty much says the same thing with regards to Buddhism being dominant there.

Good find, i dont know about this site. It is not surprising though that there would be at least one there built by the Parthians if they had conquered the city at some point. If it wasnt the Parthians that built it, then possibly Sogdian traders did since they were active on the Silk Road and are known to have built a few arteshkadehs in western China.
 
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Depends which Zoroastrian period you're talking about. Achaemenids wrote Old Persian in Cuneiform but the Sassanids invented a new alphabet for Avesta (just called Avestan script). Parthian and Middle Persian texts were wrote in Pahlavi script. The core Zoroastrian hymns etc were mainly oral and passed down orally until the Sassanid era. They were rarely written down before the Sassanids compiled the Avesta into a single corpus of books. So anything in Avestan language (Gathas, Yasna, Yashts etc) would be written in Avestan, while the other Zoroastrian texts like the Videvdad and Bundahishn etc would have been in Pahlavi.

Thats an interesting passage in that link. It may well be possible that an arteshkadeh existed there, but the evidence is inconclusive. As for Zoroastrianism's overall impact on Gandhara, it was evidently small if there was any at all. During the Sassanid period Zoroastrianism had to compete with two missionary religions penetrating the Sassanid empire from both West and East (Christianity and Buddhism) and also Manichaeism and the Mazdakites. Zoroastrianism at that time also had many sects (Zurvanism etc), in addition to many numerous cult and 'popular' folk expressions of the religion which were different from what the Magi (Mobedan in Persia) considered Zoroastrianism to be, especially since some of them were a mixture of Greek and Iranian paganism. Since Buddhism moved through Gandahara into Sogdia before the Sassanids started to ban and fight against foreign religions i think it is quite clear that Zoroastrianism's presence there was always minimal. Your passage also pretty much says the same thing with regards to Buddhism being dominant there.


Good find, i dont know about this site. It is not surprising though that there would be at least one there built by the Parthians if they had conquered the city at some point. If it wasnt the Parthians that built it, then possibly Sogdian traders did since they were active on the Silk Road and are known to have built a few arteshkadehs in western China.

However I never claimed at any stage that the entire Indus region was Zoroastrian. I said at times it had fallen under Persian rule. I think the fact is Gandara had been under Persian influence. 2,000 years later we are hardly able to get weighing scale and start quantifying it. Nothing you have said detracts from what I said notwithstanding your allergy toward the entire notion that there might have been Persian influence in this region.

Perhaps something else is informing your thoughts but for sure you seem to be displayed marked disposition that is at contrast with most of the other Iranian members here. You alluding to pigmentation also is surprising. Your not a Viking and I certainly am not either. I have met many Iranians and I know they fall across a broad spectrum. The fact is modern Persians are polyglot of inputs including significant Semite input as evidenced in the hair. At any rate I will look into this and will post full reply to your earlier post.

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Sirkap.jpg


Taxila%20-%20Sirkap%20-%2016.JPG


sirkap - Google Search
 
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Gandhara - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Taxila - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Taxila is UNESCO world heritage site. Gandhara was Persian satrapy. It also was site of Greek Kingdoms as can be seen in Greek coins. If Greek influence impacted Gandhara are suggesting Zoroastrianism which was from next door did not?

I think you need to revisit your history. No offence intened.

You also need to look at Gandophares.

220px-Gondophares.jpg


Gondophares - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gondophares I was representative of the House of Suren in Balochistan [1] as well as founder and first king of the Parthian Kingdom and dynasty. He seems to have ruled c. 20–10 BCE according to modern research,[2] and was originally likely a relative or vassal of the Apracas, ruling in Apracapura (Bajaur, Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa-Pakistan) and down in to Sistan (Balochistan).

Gondophares I has traditionally been given a later date; the reign of one king calling himself Gondophares has been established at 20 AD by the rock inscription he set up at Takht-i Bahi (also known as Takht Bahi) in Mardan, western Pakistan, in 46 AD.,[3] and he has also been connected with the third-century Acts of Thomas. Recent research has however shown unambiguously that "Gondophares" was a title held by many kings; none of the ancient inscriptions or sources could be specifically connected with the first Gondophares, and numismatic indications strongly suggest that Gondophares I was earlier than these events.

Gondophares I took over the Kabul valley and the Punjab and Sindh region area from the Scythian king Azes. In reality, a number of vassal rulers seem to have switched allegiance from the Indo-Scythians to Gondophares I. His empire was vast, but was only a loose framework, which fragmented soon after his death. His capital was the Gandharan city of Taxila.[4] Taxila is located in Punjab to the west of the present

GONDOPHARES – Encyclopaedia Iranica

Declaration: I have not unlike others here claim to have studied this particular subject at university level. I chose more humble subject, law to make a living. However I think I have proven here leaving asides the Persians even the Greeks from all the way in Europe left a huge legacy. I let everything to the members here to make conclusions.
 
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However I never claimed at any stage that the entire Indus region was Zoroastrian. I said at times it had fallen under Persian rule. I think the fact is Gandara had been under Persian influence. 2,000 years later we canm hardly get weighly scale and start quantifying it. Nothing you have said detracts from what I said notwithstanding your allergy toward the entire notion that there might have been Persian influence in this region.

Perhaps something else is informin g your thoughts but for sure you seem to be displayed marked disposition that is at contrast with most of the other Iranian members here. Your alluding to pigmentation also is surprising. Your not a Viking and I certainly am not either. I have met many Iranians and I know they fall across a broad spectrum. The fact is modern Persians are polyglot of inputs including significant Semite input as evidenced in the hair. At any rate I will look into this and will post full reply to your earlier post.
I said that no evidence exists for direct Persian control of the Indian vassal states after the initial invasion and conquest by Darius the Great. For sure, the Achaemenids would had some impact on these place since they were the overlords and the Indian kingdoms were their vassals. My source is the Cambridge University paper written on the subject that i gave you the name of. It is published in the World of Achaemenid Persia which is a large tome full of academic papers that was sponsored by the Iran Heritage Foundation. I bought this book a couple of years ago. As for Zoroastrianism, if you want to read a general history of the religion then i recommend you start with Zoroastrianism: An Introduction by Jenny Rose. You will find a good account of the history of Zoroastrianism in Iran and Central Asia and the Parsi migration to western India in there.

As for me alluding to 'pigmentation', whether you like it or not thats how Persians and Greeks saw and thought of Indians and what they wrote about them. I am sorry if that offends you but that has nothing to do with me, i was just stating something historical. I did not invent the word Hendu and the association of the word with the racial characteristics of South Asians. that is something that was given to it over 1000 years ago by the first Persians who had observed Indians and written about them.

Taxila is UNESCO world heritage site. Gandhara was Persian satrapy. It also was site of Greek Kingdoms as can be seen in Greek coins. If Greek influence impacted Gandhara are suggesting Zoroastrianism which was from next door did not?

I think you need to revisit your history. No offence intened.

You dont seem to understand that in around 560 BC when the first Persian empire arose to around 635 CE when the last pre-Islamic Persian empire fell that very few people were literate, most people did not travel long distances and lived on subsistence farming or herding and that the majority of people could not speak more than one language nor was the average person particularly knowledgeable about the ins and outs of religion, philosophy, geography, culture, other nations etc these were the preserve of the elite.

Yes im sure that one or two arteshkadehs and a dakhma would have existed in Taxila that were built for the rulers who invaded the city but the fact remains that this was a city far removed from the Iranian world and was conquered, not built, by the Persians and later on the Greeks. I dont seem to quite get why you want to present Gandhara to be something that it is not. The natives of this region were not Zoroastrians or Iranians or Greeks they were Indians that were invaded and defeated by Darius I and made to become vassals of the Achaemenids just like Babylon, Egypt, Lydia etc were all also conquered by the Persian empire. Do you know how many Greek cities were under Persian rule?

I am glad that unlike the typical person living in modern Iraq, Egypt, Turkey and so on that you seem to take pride in some part of your country having been ruled by the great Achaemenids but at the same time i dont know exactly why you want to believe that Achaemenid rule there was anything more than just a conquest of an already existing, foreign city. You seem to think that Gandhara was built by Persians and Greeks but they were just the rulers of the natives.

In any case, i am glad that you find ancient Iranian history interesting and want to learn more about it.
 
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I said that no evidence exists for direct Persian control of the Indian vassal states after the initial invasion and conquest by Darius the Great. For sure, the Achaemenids would had some impact on these place since they were the overlords and the Indian kingdoms were their vassals. My source is the Cambridge University paper written on the subject that i gave you the name of. It is published in the World of Achaemenid Persia which is a large tome full of academic papers that was sponsored by the Iran Heritage Foundation. I bought this book a couple of years ago. As for Zoroastrianism, if you want to read a general history of the religion then i recommend you start with Zoroastrianism: An Introduction by Jenny Rose. You will find a good account of the history of Zoroastrianism in Iran and Central Asia and the Parsi migration to western India in there.

As for me alluding to 'pigmentation', whether you like it or not thats how Persians and Greeks saw and thought of Indians and what they wrote about them. I am sorry if that offends you but that has nothing to do with me, i was just stating something historical. I did not invent the word Hendu and the association of the word with the racial characteristics of South Asians. that is something that was given to it over 1000 years ago by the first Persians who had observed Indians and written about them.



You dont seem to understand that in around 560 BC when the first Persian empire arose to around 635 CE when the last pre-Islamic Persian empire fell that very few people were literate, most people did not travel long distances and lived on subsistence farming or herding and that the majority of people could not speak more than one language nor was the average person particularly knowledgeable about the ins and outs of religion, philosophy, geography, culture, other nations etc these were the preserve of the elite.

Yes im sure that one or two arteshkadehs and a dakhma would have existed in Taxila that were built for the rulers who invaded the city but the fact remains that this was a city far removed from the Iranian world and was conquered, not built, by the Persians and later on the Greeks. I dont seem to quite get why you want to present Gandhara to be something that it is not. The natives of this region were not Zoroastrians or Iranians or Greeks they were Indians that were invaded and defeated by Darius I and made to become vassals of the Achaemenids just like Babylon, Egypt, Lydia etc were all also conquered by the Persian empire. Do you know how many Greek cities were under Persian rule?

I am glad that unlike the typical person living in modern Iraq, Egypt, Turkey and so on that you seem to take pride in some part of your country having been ruled by the great Achaemenids but at the same time i dont know exactly why you want to believe that Achaemenid rule there was anything more than just a conquest of an already existing, foreign city. You seem to think that Gandhara was built by Persians and Greeks but they were just the rulers of the natives.

In any case, i am glad that you find ancient Iranian history interesting and want to learn more about it.

I need to do more reading. Your appear to be giving me history through the eyes of Europeans. For a start you keep on using the word "Indian", If your quoting original Iranian sources can you please give me the term used in Persian and if possible the accurate transliteration as of 2015.

And how west into Greece did the Achaemenids go? Into Macedonia?

Where these coins are discovered? In Taxila?
Are right-hand side coins discovered at the same place and belong to the same era?

Google Taxila, coins and if your looking for Greek era coins use that term or try "Gandhara" or try "Sirkap". Try images and you should get 100s of hits. Some real interesting stuff is kept at the Taxila Museum.

Taxila Museum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Taxila Museum coins - Google Search
 
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