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Interview of Wen Jiabao

I don't think any of the people saying Hu was weak were around for the Jiang era. In Jiang's time, China was at a realistic risk of collapsing or being militarily defeated, absolutely no joke. There was absolutely zero risk of China collapsing in the Hu era and absolutely zero risk of China being militarily defeated.

Well said. But in a meta-analytic view, one cans say that China has been on a linear growth in terms of trans-social development since Deng. Of course the current administration is better than the previous as various 5 year plan promulgations have been enacted and implemented since then. One should take a progressive vantage point , rather than focusing on comparisons of previous administrations.

Jiang Zhemin's performance is poor compared to the current administration, but one should remember , to take a pragmatic approach, some of the successes under Jiang's tenure:

  • Under Jiang (despite him not being an economics expert), China maintained an 8% growth during the 1997-1998 Asian Financial Crisis
  • Forwarded and shepherded the CPC aims to join the WTC , which eventually jettisoned the Chinese Economy even further; it was Jiang who was a strong proponent of China's ascension into the WTC.
  • As one of the older cadres of the CPC, his conservative political thought and stance saw that the Three Represents, Mao Zedong Thought, Deong Xiaoping Theory into the Party's Constitution in 2002.
I will say that the relative growth and stability of China throughout the 1990s was due to his governance, most importantly he weathered China through the Asian Financial Crisis , where most countries in the region and around the world suffered. China did not.

check the growth in patent rates and scientific publications during the Hu era. It was those 10 years that China transformed from a relatively weak country like today's India into a scientific powerhouse. In the late 90's early 2000's, do you even realize how many people were ashamed for being Chinese? How Falun Gong started? It was no accident.

Corruption is one thing, science and industry are another. Just ask yourself: How big was the difference between 1992 and 2002? How big was the difference between 2002 and 2012? The answer is very clear. In both 1992 and 2002, Chinese people were still self hating (自卑)and inferiority complex was mainstream, in 2012, Chinese people with inferiority complex were looked down on.

Bro,

You make clear and concise points. But let's consider the position China was say in the early 1990s and dichotimize it with say in the early 2000s, say around 2002. China in 2002 was a result of the unprecedented pro-economic development under Jiang Zemin, so much that he even put emphasis on economy > environment (some liberals would argue that this was bad for the sake of the trees, lakes etc) but in long term fiscal planning, this enshrined China's position as the indisuputed production center of the world. Jiang took advantage of the growing relations with US and Japan and encouraged them through the CPC's economic planning board to offshore their production facilities in China.

It was Jiang, who was in close cooperation with the late Deng, that developed and secured the base from which China would improve and increase its industrial capabilities through these offshoring contracts with Tokyo, Washington, et al.

You're a physics and chemistry specialist right? And a Doctoral Candidate at that. Let me make a correlation for you. Think about the synthesis of Norepinephrine from the noradrenergic apparatus. Before we get norepinephrine, it is Dopamine, before it is dopamine, it is L-DOPA, before L-DOPA it is choline, before choline it is tyramine.

Tyramine --> Choline + CHAT --> LDOPA --> Dopamine --> Norepinephrine (important a-adrenergic receptor agonist).

Everything is a step wise process.


Regards,
 
Typical delusional Indian, everybody knows that your so-called 'democracy' is nothing but a third world sh1thole, while the US always uses 'democracy' as a political tool.

Now we got a strong leader like Xi Jinping, we know where we are heading in the future.

So mind your own business and don't stick your nose on our business.

1. What do you mean by "typical delusional Indian"? How many Indians have you actually met and talked to in first place? Neither are the Indians in this forum any representative of Indians in general, nor am I, of all Indians, representative of anyone.

2. "everybody knows that your so-called 'democracy' is nothing but a third world sh1thole"
I didn't know that our democracy or country in general is a shit hole. Neither do many many people. And as for third world, I don't know how you define it. Some define it as countries below 15k dollars per capita, in which case even China is third world. China is around 8-9k. Are we comparatively poor? Absolutely. Our percapita income in nominal wages is around 22%. Are we living in "shit hole?" Depends on what you mean by it? Literally, no. Also, if relative is the sole criterion, then any country or place with a per capita income of 30k can label China as a "third world shit hole"

3. "US always uses 'democracy' as a political tool"

Totally agreed, no doubt. But it is no reason to reject it. US plays a very clever game.

4. "So mind your own business and don't stick your nose on our business."
I will stop commenting if the mods say me for once, that this forum or this particular sub-section is for Chinese members to solely comment on. I didn't get the memo that here comment for a single country is exclusively reserved for a citizen of that country, though it is explicitly a discussion forum.
Trust me, I know you are a patriot, I respect all patriots, but this is not the way to earn friends, nor in the best interests of your country, especially when it is trying a lot to attract foreign talent. I was even looking forward to attending and perhaps participating in some new think tanks that the Chinese Government plans to promote for its policy building.

The narrative of the Chinese government wins within China itself, and that is only place where it really matters.

Soft power overseas is merely a bonus that developed countries have cultivated over hundreds of years.

Internal power is the most important type of power, without internal strength, external strength is useless.

And is it winning within its own borders?

Look at HongKong, Taiwan and other problems. Is it able to assimilate everyone? Is it able to make a single Chinese identity?

Not only this, there are scores of Chinese students I have met that want democracy. Not that they want to overthrow CCP, but they just want a freer society, less censorship, freedom of speech. They appreciate CCP's role in nation building, and hence they are giving CCP time, to bring a more fair system, but their patience may be limited.

Let me introduce you here to Feifei Wang. The custodian of Chinese soft power in some way on Quora. She is a fierce Chinese nationalist, was even banned for calling a HK guy "British dog" on quora. Yet even she wants long term freedom of speech, and some better systems of representation. She is that kind of person who is totally pro-China, she can't listen anything against. Yet. You should learn from people like these.

The western capitalist model now has stagnated HK's economic development as well, so now I think the socialist is the future for HK.

The capitalist has controlled HK for many decades, and they have done is to demonize the socialism and to brainwash the HK people.

Now over 80% of HKers have been exploited, do you think who has caused this? Capitalism or Socialism?

The capitalist is creating the umbrella revolution by shifting the blame on CPC.

Those HK students are just a group of poor living souls getting manipulated as the cannon fodder by those greedy tycoons.


And yet, HK people (or at least quite a large part of them) overwhelmingly fault Chinese Government. "The Communists!" they remark, with a noticeable tinge of hatred and despair.

Out of the two things below you will have to agree on one thing:
1. HK system succeeded.
2. HK system failed, yet the Chinese government and state didn't have the soft power strength to avoid being put blame on.

Now from the above two things, the choice is very mathematical, one has to be true, for you cannot discount both of them simultaneously.

Also, HK system is really complex, and the wages always stagnate after reaching particular benchmarks. China is slowing down. It will get increasingly difficult to grow as your per capita income increases further. So first of all, HK system is not at all the failure of its system, rather the success of it that has made it one of the most wonderful cities on Earth. Not only this, capitalism is precisely the model that China chose to develop itself further. Precisely! So China is already not communist or socialist in the economic sense, but much more a state capitalist system.


See, I am generally a very pro-China guy --- I have had many hot headed arguments about HK with many people, and have literally been blocked by many people who are HK autonomy activists, or democracy people --- but here, I am being forced to bring rationality to the debate. Some sense of balance.

Remember, the greatest danger a country faces is not from enemies, but stupid friends. You may be patriotic, but a blind-patriot is not a good guy for any country.
 
Democracy is a terrible system.
100 farmer votes will win 10 economist in economic decision.
10 industrial entrepreneur will win 10 environmentalist on environmental decision. Lobbying with money wins.

Democracy allow peaceful coup on the government but doesn't guarantee it.
 
I do agree with you to a point @powastick . But then again, is there really a perfect form of government.

Ideologically and theoretically speaking, the closest to a "perfect" form of Government is...Communism.

Note, I said ideologically and theoretically.
 
Democracy is a terrible system.
100 farmer votes will win 10 economist in economic decision.
10 industrial entrepreneur will win 10 environmentalist on environmental decision. Lobbying with money wins.

Democracy allow peaceful coup on the government but doesn't guarantee it.

Its not only the election system I'm talking about.
Personally election system is one of the less important things.

The most important are:
1. Freedom of Speech
2. Rule of Law
3. Freedom of Press

We can devise a new system, but the above things are really killer institutions that literally are very beneficial for the society at large.
 
HK's abomination political system was destined to fail since the beginning, end of story.

Failed by what standards?
And it is not the end of story. You specifically didn't answer my question on soft power, do you accept that it is a failure of Chinese soft power, that somehow many people ( more than 35% by all measures) blame Chinese Government in some or the other form?

Hasn't China also adopted exactly the same elements that made west rich, that of capitalism, and business?
 
Failed by what standards?
And it is not the end of story. You specifically didn't answer my question on soft power, do you accept that it is a failure of Chinese soft power, that somehow many people ( more than 35% by all measures) blame Chinese Government in some or the other form?

Hasn't China also adopted exactly the same elements that made west rich, that of capitalism, and business?

If HK keeps insisting of not reform themselves to truly integrate into PRC, then it will be just a matter of time they become a third class city in China.

China has much much more important thing to take care of, and we don't have time to listen the whining from those losers.

Too many HKers believe that China must rotate around them, but they are obviously wrong.
 
If HK keeps insisting of not reform themselves to truly integrate into PRC, then it will be just a matter of time they become a third class city in China.

China has much much more important thing to take care of, and we don't have time to listen the whining from those losers.

Too many HKers believe that China must rotate around them, but they are obviously wrong.

They may be, but again the end thing is that you do accept that China has failed, or not attempted, whatever you like, to win over those people, and they have gone to such an extreme, that they are almost harboring secessionist dreams.
 
They may be, but again the end thing is that you do accept that China has failed, or not attempted, whatever you like, to win over those people, and they have gone to such an extreme, that they are almost harboring secessionist dreams.

A failed HK capitalist has nothing to do with us.

A failed HK socialist would be our responsibility, but not a failed capitalist one.

A failed capitalist model in HK will only initiate the socialist model in HK, which is a good thing to think of.
 
Not necessary, economic freedom should be number 1. If you cannot feed yourself why bother freedom of speech and press freedom. Also China would be risking unwelcome foreign influence/subversion. That is why Russia clamping down on the internet. In Malaysia it is really scary, you don't know when they are going to use the hate card. Hate/anger are powerful tool that can be easily exploited.

Technological progress will greatly improve rule of law. More surveillance(yes, more of NSA which also monitors corruption), more automation, better prediction and efficiency. This will reduce the human factor. Also there must have a "system overwrite" just in case of shit happens.

There cannot be genuine democracy either, you have representative that got elected because he is charismatic and probably has no idea how to manage. Democracy in a sense is only represented by a few hundred person.

Why would the chinese would like democracy, when the west are starting to having second thoughts about it?

One in three Germans say capitalism to blame for poverty, hunger| Reuters
(Reuters) - Nearly a third of Germans believe that capitalism is the cause of poverty and hunger and a majority think true democracy is not possible under that economic system, according to a survey published on Tuesday by the Emnid polling institute for Berlin's Free University.The survey found that more than 60 percent of Germans believe there is no genuine democracy in their country because industry has too much political influence and that the voice of the voters plays only a subordinate role.
 
And is it winning within its own borders?

Look at HongKong, Taiwan and other problems. Is it able to assimilate everyone? Is it able to make a single Chinese identity?

Not only this, there are scores of Chinese students I have met that want democracy. Not that they want to overthrow CCP, but they just want a freer society, less censorship, freedom of speech. They appreciate CCP's role in nation building, and hence they are giving CCP time, to bring a more fair system, but their patience may be limited.

Let me introduce you here to Feifei Wang. The custodian of Chinese soft power in some way on Quora. She is a fierce Chinese nationalist, was even banned for calling a HK guy "British dog" on quora. Yet even she wants long term freedom of speech, and some better systems of representation. She is that kind of person who is totally pro-China, she can't listen anything against. Yet. You should learn from people like these.

I believe so, yes.

Firstly I am a Hong Konger myself. And if you check the results of the last HK elections, you will see the vast majority of Hong Kongers voted for the pro-Beijing camp (including myself).

Which no doubt contributed to the recent desperate antics of the pro-democracy camp, who have realized they can't win through voting. And our opinion polls show the vast majority of Hong Kongers disliked the pro-democracy protestors and otherwise wanted them to go away.

Taiwan is currently administered by the Republic of China government so that is a separate case. HK is a Special administrative region of the PRC so also a different case.

The real political power of China lies in the people of the Mainland. They make up the overwhelming majority of Chinese citizens, and they support the CPC. And that gives the Chinese government all the legitimacy they need.

And Xi Jinping has proven to be very popular, the trends seem very positive for the CPC right now.

As for my personal opinion, I agree the HK system has been good for 7 million Chinese people. But the PRC system has been good for 1.3 billion Chinese people, and that is what counts for me the most. The greatest good for the greatest number.
 
I believe so, yes.

Firstly I am a Hong Konger myself. And if you check the results of the last HK elections, you will see the vast majority of Hong Kongers voted for the pro-Beijing camp (including myself).

Which no doubt contributed to the recent desperate antics of the pro-democracy camp, who have realized they can't win through voting. And our opinion polls show the vast majority of Hong Kongers disliked the pro-democracy protestors and otherwise wanted them to go away.

Taiwan is currently administered by the Republic of China government so that is a separate case. HK is a Special administrative region of the PRC so also a different case.

The real political power of China lies in the people of the Mainland. They make up the overwhelming majority of Chinese citizens, and they support the CPC. And that gives the Chinese government all the legitimacy they need.

And Xi Jinping has proven to be very popular, the trends seem very positive for the CPC right now.

As for my personal opinion, I agree the HK system has been good for 7 million Chinese people. But the PRC system has been good for 1.3 billion Chinese people, and that is what counts for me the most. The greatest good for the greatest number.

Yeah, CPC was also to be blamed for being too chicken to make HK one country one system with China.

The majority of HK would already benefit China's socialism if it was implemented.
 
This is a fascinating interview of Wen Jiabao by CNN.

Actually I totally agree with him:
1. China should move towards better election system, democratise the system so that state power truly belongs to the people.
2. China should establish rule of law.
3. Chinese Government should be subjected to more scrutiny by its people and there should be more transparency.

While Xi is moving forward on 2nd thing, he has done nothing and even going retrograde on 1st and 3rd things. It is harmful for the future of China.



How Censorship in China Allows Government Criticism but Silences Collective Expression

Citation:
King, Gary, Jennifer Pan, and Margaret E Roberts. 2013. How Censorship in China Allows Government Criticism but Silences Collective Expression, American Political Science Review 107, no. 2 (May): 1-18. Copy at How Censorship in China Allows Government Criticism but Silences Collective Expression | Gary King
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Abstract:
We offer the first large scale, multiple source analysis of the outcome of what may be the most extensive effort to selectively censor human expression ever implemented. To do this, we have devised a system to locate, download, and analyze the content of millions of social media posts originating from nearly 1,400 different social media services all over China before the Chinese government is able to find, evaluate, and censor (i.e., remove from the Internet) the large subset they deem objectionable. Using modern computer-assisted text analytic methods that we adapt to and validate in the Chinese language, we compare the substantive content of posts censored to those not censored over time in each of 85 topic areas. Contrary to previous understandings, posts with negative, even vitriolic, criticism of the state, its leaders, and its policies are not more likely to be censored. Instead, we show that the censorship program is aimed at curtailing collective action by silencing comments that represent, reinforce, or spur social mobilization, regardless of content. Censorship is oriented toward attempting to forestall collective activities that are occurring now or may occur in the future --- and, as such, seem to clearly expose government intent.

How Censorship in China Allows Government Criticism but Silences Collective Expression | Gary King

 
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