International probe into Kashmir killings imperative now: UN rights chief

[Indrajit]

It all depends upon how Pakistan wants to play it. Frankly with Nawaz Sharif running, i dont have much hope for anything. My opinion is my own and that is what i said in my first post what Pakistan should be doing. Whether it does or not is entirely different.

I have read some of your opinions going back, would like to have a longer discussion on the relationship between India & Pakistan and what realistically is achievable if time permits & you are so inclined. This thread has been too testosterone heavy and has too narrow a focus to allow for that.Maybe a different thread somewhere will allow for that...

 

[IceCold]

I have read some of your opinions going back, would like to have a longer discussion on the relationship between India & Pakistan and what realistically is achievable if time permits & you are so inclined. This thread has been too testosterone heavy and has too narrow a focus to allow for that.Maybe a different thread somewhere will allow for that...

Sure. Tag me in.

 

[Tom M]

Yes you disagreed when you said and i quote " Let me correct you there is no Muslim world but a world" this was you disagreeing over the existence of such a term. Now you can deny it as much as you want but a real man would accept and move on. Anyway now that we agree that such a term exists, there is no point in carrying this debate any further.

By the way you last part is absolute nonsense since debate was never about the role of Ummah or the ground realities but rather the term Muslim world which is generally used to describe Muslim parts of the world.
Again from Wiki:
In a modern geopolitical sense, the term usually refers collectively to Muslim-majority countries, states, districts, or towns.
You just read the Ummah part and came guns blazing. Like i said before educate yourself a little before trying to correct others. And there is no harm in accepting that you made a mistake.
Now relax. The topic is international probe in Kashmir killing.

It's a matter how you interpret the statements made by others, I had clearly stated "No such world exist" but never told that a general word exist for that ???

Can you please let me know the exact meaning of Ummah ?? This is what I get while searching in Google.

umma
ˈʊmə/
noun
noun: ummah

1. the whole community of Muslims bound together by ties of religion.

And I suppose that is what the word "The Muslim world" is all about.

And seriously if you want me to tell that I am wrong and i made a mistake, then so be it. I just don't care.

And now back on topic. As I have told in some of my previous posts, if the UN is helpless and unable to probe gross HM violations in Iraq, Syria, even a much smaller country Sri-lanka ( Lankan civil war 2008-2009), do you seriously think they can do a probe in Kashmir ?? I don't think its gonna happen.

 

[IceCold]

And I suppose that is what the word "The Muslim world" is all about.

No its not.

And now back on topic. As I have told in some of my previous posts, if the UN is helpless and unable to probe gross HM violations in Iraq, Syria, even a much smaller country Sri-lanka ( Lankan civil war 2008-2009), do you seriously think they can do a probe in Kashmir ?? I don't think its gonna happen.

No they wont be able to. But that is not the point. What is important is to shame India and what better way then to highlight it on every platform including UN. Now Pakistan has invited UN to visit Azaad Kashmir and see it for themselves after Modi claimed gross human rights violations by Pakistan but on the other hand India denied UN entry into Kashmir. This is a diplomatic victory. Now if Pakistani government had any senses it would simply use this an otherwise excellent opportunity to publicly shame India during the upcoming UN meeting. Than try to gather support and move it to the security council (which i know will get veto) but going this far alone will give India a PR nightmare even if nothing else happens.

 

[Tom M]

No they wont be able to. But that is not the point. What is important is to shame India and what better way then to highlight it on every platform including UN. Now Pakistan has invited UN to visit Azaad Kashmir and see it for themselves after Modi claimed gross human rights violations by Pakistan but on the other hand India denied UN entry into Kashmir. This is a diplomatic victory. Now if Pakistani government had any senses it would simply use this an otherwise excellent opportunity to publicly shame India during the upcoming UN meeting. Than try to gather support and move it to the security council (which i know will get veto) but going this far alone will give India a PR nightmare even if nothing else happens.

Well there is no harm in trying.

But when gross HM violators are already present in the higher echelons of UN, especially in the security council ( mainly, USA & China) and given the poor Human rights track record of Pakistan themselves, I guess there is nothing much for India to be worried about. Pakistan may very well win a small diplomatic battle, but India is already winning the diplomatic war.

 

[Indrajit]

No they wont be able to. But that is not the point. What is important is to shame India and what better way then to highlight it on every platform including UN. Now Pakistan has invited UN to visit Azaad Kashmir and see it for themselves after Modi claimed gross human rights violations by Pakistan but on the other hand India denied UN entry into Kashmir. This is a diplomatic victory. Now if Pakistani government had any senses it would simply use this an otherwise excellent opportunity to publicly shame India during the upcoming UN meeting. Than try to gather support and move it to the security council (which i know will get veto) but going this far alone will give India a PR nightmare even if nothing else happens.

Not as simple. Pakistani and Indian positions on the involvement of the UN in Kashmir is well known to all members & India's refusal to allow UN personnel in won't come as much of a surprise to anyone. Nor is Pakistan's own image such that it can convincingly carry the weight of such attempts to "shame" India. There are no takers for it now, there weren't even when the world was a different place without the terrible overhang of what has now happened in the Middle East etc. The reality is pretty stark, there will be no traction whatsoever to such ideas & Pakistan might well get hoisted on its own petard without anything to show in return.

Security council idea is a non starter because Pakistan will get no support, not even from China. China certainly does not want to get itself into a quagmire on this subject, stuff like NSG are far easier than this subject. Some 80 deaths of stone throwing protesters & the occasional collateral causality over 3 months might be embarrassing to India internally & to some extent externally but no one in the world we now live in is about to go down the road of confronting India for that. You are letting your emotions get the better of you,chief. The reality is far more stark & it doesn't favour Pakistan, atleast not in the manner you seem to espouse here.

 

[Pakistan First]

The fact is that Indian foreign policy has back-fired. Pakistan seems to be doing a decent job in turning the tables on India and it seems Pakistan has learnt a thing or two from its Chinese brethren.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Oooh, more trash talk... 1948, Kargil......anything more. Stand up comedian, eh?

Trash talk is what your leaders are honking atm. We are just telling you shItholes to man up.

 

[Trichy]

what does india have 2 hide ? all the pakistanis insulting chai walla...he is doing a better job of promoting and developing india than our useless politicians. if un gave a request which could hurt pakistan then india would be sending a huge delegation 2 the un 2 enforce the request. our politicians are 2 busy milking pakistan 2 see the impact this can have on india

can we request UNHRC to do the same in Baluchistan too? if no What is pakistan have 2 hide?

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

Well there is no harm in trying.

But when gross HM violators are already present in the higher echelons of UN, especially in the security council ( mainly, USA & China) and given the poor Human rights track record of Pakistan themselves, I guess there is nothing much for India to be worried about. Pakistan may very well win a small diplomatic battle, but India is already winning the diplomatic war.

^^^ and with this, topic is over.

 

[GR!FF!N]

Pakistan is digging its own graves.They don't know how these games gets played.The moment India will counter it with different ploy,Pakistan will back straight out.India will point so called "Counter Terrorism OP" in Balochistan and Pashtun belt where Pakistan was shelling,bombing at its will.Some from Pakistan will also join in this chant and thats it.
Kashmir is nothing in front of what is happening in Pakistan.And even if UN comes,what will they find??

Violent mob protests against killing of a Pakistani based terrorist organization's member and clash of law enforcement agencies and stone pelters.India will parade hundreds of injured police officers,pictures of deceased police officers and our prized possession of captured Pakistani terrorists.Then UN will give report of a heavy handed reaction of law enforcement agencies against Pakistani sponsored and fueled terrorism and agitation.And Pakistan will chant UN Murdabad in the streets of Lahore and Karachi.Perhaps India will push its case of UNSC 1267 designated terrorists as well,who are causing daily headache to Pakistan.And we know how that will played out.

But the thing is,India knows meaning of a "Treaty",Pakistan doesn't.And India doesn't want to play Pakistan's game.

 

[IceCold]

Well there is no harm in trying.

But when gross HM violators are already present in the higher echelons of UN, especially in the security council ( mainly, USA & China) and given the poor Human rights track record of Pakistan themselves, I guess there is nothing much for India to be worried about. Pakistan may very well win a small diplomatic battle, but India is already winning the diplomatic war.

Why dont you put your money where your mouth is and open IOK to UN inspection. Pakistan just did. But wait India already dismissed it knowing well the UN and world will find out. So spare us the BS about human record. You lot are the last persons on earth to talk about poor human record yet alone that of Pakistan.

Not as simple. Pakistani and Indian positions on the involvement of the UN in Kashmir is well known to all members & India's refusal to allow UN personnel in won't come as much of a surprise to anyone. Nor is Pakistan's own image such that it can convincingly carry the weight of such attempts to "shame" India. There are no takers for it now, there weren't even when the world was a different place without the terrible overhang of what has now happened in the Middle East etc. The reality is pretty stark, there will be no traction whatsoever to such ideas & Pakistan might well get hoisted on its own petard without anything to show in return.

Security council idea is a non starter because Pakistan will get no support, not even from China. China certainly does not want to get itself into a quagmire on this subject, stuff like NSG are far easier than this subject. Some 80 deaths of stone throwing protesters & the occasional collateral causality over 3 months might be embarrassing to India internally & to some extent externally but no one in the world we now live in is about to go down the road of confronting India for that. You are letting your emotions get the better of you,chief. The reality is far more stark & it doesn't favour Pakistan, atleast not in the manner you seem to espouse here.

Actually i agree with you in a sense but i will replace no one with Western block. They are the ones who do not want to go down that road confronting India. Reality is far more stark,agreed however you also have to agree that new alliances are being formed as we speak. Even if you dont give much credit to Pakistan and to be honest i dont blame you because our foreign policy has always been a disaster yet certain things are going our way. With China in our camp, Pakistan is increasingly trying to get Russia too. Iran is interested in CPEC and so is Turkey. Pakistan played a key role in bringing Turkey and Russia on the table and resolve their differences. India on the hand is fairly comfortably getting all the support from the Western block which is why India does not need to much worry about what happens in the UN but saying that china wont back Pakistan on this is naive because in the past India had similar view over NSG and than again on Masood Azhar. The reason India was able to get its way with Hafiz Saeed was because there was PPP government who did not object and asked China not to veto it. Point is things are changing and Pakistan is making certain quarters in India very upset. No wonder Modi tried to get back at Pakistan by bringing Balochistan and Azaad Kashmir but that approach back fired as well. Pakistan opened AJK to UN inspection while India rejected it. Diplomatic win for us. In the up coming UN meeting Pakistan is again going to raise this issue, and we will continue to do so till the time world starts paying attention. And i think they have.

 

[Indrajit]

Actually i agree with you in a sense but i will replace no one with Western block. They are the ones who do not want to go down that road confronting India. Reality is far more stark,agreed however you also have to agree that new alliances are being formed as we speak.

Maybe, maybe not but in any case even you are only suggesting that new alliances are being formed, not that they already exist and have no immediate bearing on the matter under discussion.

With China in our camp, Pakistan is increasingly trying to get Russia too.

You may be wooing Russia but no one will argue that Russia would be in any anti-india camp.

Iran is interested in CPEC and so is Turkey.

Maybe you should see how much oil India buys from Iran, cutting off their nose to spite the face will make no sense to them.

India on the hand is fairly comfortably getting all the support from the Western block which is why India does not need to much worry about what happens in the UN but saying that china wont back Pakistan on this is naive because in the past India had similar view over NSG and than again on Masood Azhar.

Specifically on the subject of Human rights, I stand by what i said, China won't touch it with a barge pole.

The reason India was able to get its way with Hafiz Saeed was because there was PPP government who did not object and asked China not to veto it. Point is things are changing and Pakistan is making certain quarters in India very upset.

So your present government supports terrorists & enlists the support of China to block any resolution in the UN to take action. not the same as helping introduce a resolution on human rights....

No wonder Modi tried to get back at Pakistan by bringing Balochistan and Azaad Kashmir but that approach back fired as well. Pakistan opened AJK to UN inspection while India rejected it. Diplomatic win for us.

That is your line of argument, I'm afraid we simply have to agree to disagree.

In the up coming UN meeting Pakistan is again going to raise this issue, and we will continue to do so till the time world starts paying attention. And i think they have.

You have been raising it pretty much every year, this year will be no different. In a world consumed by the chaos in the middle east, no one is about to bother themselves over this.

 

[IceCold]

So your present government supports terrorists & enlists the support of China to block any resolution in the UN to take action. not the same as helping introduce a resolution on human rights....

Terrorists as per who India? No body else considers him a terrorist and India failed to deliver any evidence what so ever that could implicate him.

You have been raising it pretty much every year, this year will be no different. In a world consumed by the chaos in the middle east, no one is about to bother themselves over this.

Yes we have but this year its difference considering the violence and blunt disregard for human lives by the indian forces. Even the UN is forced to speak which otherwise was a silent spectator for quite sometime.

 

[Indrajit]

Terrorists as per who India? No body else considers him a terrorist and India failed to deliver any evidence what so ever that could implicate him.

Masood Azhar? The guy released from an Indian jail by an act of terrorism? Not a terrorist? Oh, ok. Good to know where you are coming from.

Yes we have but this year its difference considering the violence and blunt disregard for human lives by the indian forces. Even the UN is forced to speak which otherwise was a silent spectator for quite sometime.

Blunt disregard? Are we being accused of using artillery & fighter jets to bomb them? Flatten whole areas, call them IDP's etc etc?

Some 80 killed in 3 months? As opposed to the carnage elsewhere? Good luck with that....