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INS Vishal (65,000 Ton Displacement) with CATOBAR Under Development

The French can help, they do have experience in catapult operations, albeit with US help. DCNS has already been contacted for help in ADS which they agreed but later Fincentarri was choosen. BAE systems can be contacted for this. Apart from designing a similar sized ship they already doing for UK, they can come up with some really great sensor package and other auxiliary units.. 


Sancho, isnt that UK carrier?

No, UK gets STOVL carriers and the Queen Elizabeth carrier has a different design:

UK-Queen-Elizabeth-Class-Aircraft-Carrier-QE2.jpg


DCNS however has offered French navy a CATOBAR version, based on the QE class design. The model I posted is a seperate carrier design by DCNS.
 
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Seems to be a good chance of that happening. If the design has been frozen around a CATOBAR rig.
First of all; IN has moved away from quite conclusively from Conventional Steam Boilers to GT propulsion. Whch means that Steam CAT will need a dedicated Steam Plant in addition to the Ship's propulsion plant. Not worth it, either technically or financially.
So as I see it; the choice of the CATOBAR configuration means that EMALS is coming through. Which is well within the realm of possibility. Since it will involve just the supply and installation of one set of EMALS with (maybe) the usual offsets. So the US got nothing to lose, and India got much to gain.
One consequent gain to the US will then be sale of the Hawkeyes; which they want to sell and IN wants to buy.

All the "right diplomatic noises" have been emanating from Washington lately. Likely to be connected to all this.

US offers help for next generation aircraft carrier - Indian Express

The United States has offered to develop the next generation aircraft carrier technology with India, visiting deputy secretary of defence Ashton Carter said Wednesday.
The technology on offer, Electro Magnetic Aircraft Launch System, will be a quantum leap for the Indian Navy that currently relies on the Russian ski-launch technology.
One such technology that can be shared under the Defence Technology Initiative is EMALS, Carter said. "The US is developing and fielding that system and is offering the technology to India which has an aircraft carrier and is considering making more," he said.
He emphasised that the US wishes to replicate, in part, the Russian model of cooperation with India. "That is exactly the same kind of thing where two industry teams are involved in the whole product life cycle; where the product is both co-produced and developed."
 
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No, UK gets STOVL carriers and the Queen Elizabeth carrier has a different design:

UK-Queen-Elizabeth-Class-Aircraft-Carrier-QE2.jpg


DCNS however has offered French navy a CATOBAR version, based on the QE class design. The model I posted is a seperate carrier design by DCNS.

I thought that was the earlier model of UK carrier before they came with this.
Do you think it is a feasible idea where US gives EMALS, France gives consultation and India makes one carrier? Just a loud thinking..
 
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I thought that was the earlier model of UK carrier before they came with this.
Do you think it is a feasible idea where US gives EMALS, France gives consultation and India makes one carrier? Just a loud thinking..

I guess it's more likely with Babckock as a partner, since the UK are more trusted by the US, but DCNS would be the better choice, since they already have made CATOBAR carriers, while the Brits didn't. But as I said in other posts, we don't need approval for EMALS, but approval for catapults at all! Till now they even denied steam catapults to us, so even if we get only steam catapults now, it would be a clear improvement for IN, but no matter what, we have to wait and see what they want in return and if the deal is still worth it.
 
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I guess it's more likely with Babckock as a partner, since the UK are more trusted by the US, but DCNS would be the better choice, since they already have made CATOBAR carriers, while the Brits didn't. But as I said in other posts, we don't need approval for EMALS, but approval for catapults at all! Till now they even denied steam catapults to us, so even if we get only steam catapults now, it would be a clear improvement for IN, but no matter what, we have to wait and see what they want in return and if the deal is still worth it.

Those buggers will surely cut a deal with us...
 
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Guys, let's post the air-group we'd personally like to see on the Vshal, I'll start:

S-70B:

1232991.jpg




E-D:


E-2D-Carrier-suitability-tests.jpg



N-FGFA (not known if this in the works or whether it would be able to be launched from a Catapult):


Sukhoi-T-50-PAK-FA-First-Flight-2S.jpg



Failing that the F-35C is, IMHO, the only way to go as the IN needs a NG/5th gen carrier-fighter on the Vishal, 4.5+ gen fighter just won't be enough:


f35landing960.jpg





@sancho @Dillinger @janon @Water Car Engineer @Koovie @anyone please feel free to contribute
 
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The design freeze is a little way off. One thing I was able to confirm thanks to some splendid tête-à-tête is that the Americans are not going to make the acquisition of either CAOBAR or EMALS contingent upon the acquisition of the Super Bugs, they seem content with working on the sidelines and marketing systems like the BAMS. Albeit the IN itself will be looking for a new platform to operate off a CATOBAR/EMALS carrier and it seems that they would like to have a good look at the Super Bug and its efficiency as a carrier borne operator since the options in that area are limited as of now in terms of operational platforms. All in all its a good way off with the IN looking to prioritize some of its spending and focus in view of the needs of the sub-surface and surface combatant fleets.

The IN and its NDB is notorious for revising designs and going through various iterations at various phases of the project so take what's written in the newspapers with a whole barrel of salt.
Well that is certainly very welcome news to me as the one issue I had with the iN going for EMALS had been the USG might push for the F-18-E/F as part of a package deal. IMHO there is simply no point in getting the F-18, a 4.5++ gen fighter. Look at the timeline, the IAC-2 should be in IN service in around 2023-5 and by then the 5th-gen threat to India will be higher not to mention the IAF will already be operating 5th gen fighters. IMHO it is between the F-35C and N-FGFA (if this is actually plausible) to go on the IAC-2.

Naturally the E-D/E is a given if the IN really does go for a CATOBAR configuration. 
Nah, US is the way to go. One only has to look at the mess that is the QE-class construction to see the IN would be better of staying clear of UK assistance on this front.

The US are the undisputed kings in this field-pumping out a 100,000 Supercarrier every few years without fail.
 
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INS Vishal ("Immense") is the second of two new indigenous Indian Navy carrier designs. The first, INS Vikrant was expected [as of 2012] to be commissioned sometime after 2017 due to ongoing project delays. The Indian Navy has relied on second-hand British or Soviet/Russian origin ships refitted for Indian Navy. So these Indigenous Aircraft Carriers will stand as a huge symbol of national pride. The INS Vishal project under the direction of the Naval Design Bureau, with vessel requirements expected to be finalized by the end of 2012.

The indigenous initiative began in 1989, to provide the Indian Navy with "Air Defence Ships" (ADS). Construction was to consist of two 28,000 ton vessels for the launching and recovery of the British BAe Sea Harrier Vertical Take-Off and Landing (VTOL) strike aircraft. But economic stringency caused the project to come to naught.

By 1999, improved economic prospects allowed the revival of the indigenous carrier initiative. By this time, the prospective service life of the Sea Harrier inventory was too limited to be the focus of the new effort. So a more flexible aircraft carrier design was provided for under the new "Indigenous Aircraft Carrier" initiative. The class would include the initial 40,000 ton INS Vikrant (not to be confused with the original R11) and her sister, the 65,000 ton INS Vishal. Both would be capable of launching the more powerful Mikoyan MiG-29K Fulcrum navy fighters and navalized helicopters as required. The Vikrant was assigned a STOBAR configuration (Short Take-Off But Arrested Recovery) with a "ski jump" ramp was affixed to the bow end of the ship for the required short-take off requirement.

The INS Vishal, however, would be drastically different in scope and function, having a CATOBAR configuration (Catapult-Assisted Take-Off But Arrested Recovery) - a "flat top" deck more in line with American Navy designs. This configuration would support heavier and dimensionally larger mission-minded fixed-wing aircraft such as Airborne Early Warning (AEW) types, and giving the Indian Navy an edge in the South Asian-Pacific Theater - particularly against China and Pakistan.

According to one widely cited account, INS Vishal will be a conventionally-powered aircraft carrier fitted with 4 x General Electric LM2500+ series gas turbine engines delivering to two shafts. Top speed would be 28 knots in ideal conditions, with a range of 7,500 nautical miles. The vessel will be defended by a 4 x 76mm Otobreda guns, surface-to-air missile launchers and a Close-In Weapon System (CIWS) such as the 20mm American "Phalanx". A selex RAN-40L L-band early warning radar (EWR) will be part of the extensive and advanced sensor and processing system. The crew complement, according to this source, is expected to be 1,400 officers, sailors, service personnel, airmen and mechanics.

Dimensions are reported to include a running length of 860 feet with a 200 foot beam and 28 foot draft. But these dimensions are those of the 40,000 ton IAC-1, and are rather too small for a 65,000 ton ship. With a similar displacement, the British Queen Elizabeth CVF has a length of 283m / 920 feet [275-290 meters], a flight deck width of 69-75m / 224-230-240 feet], a beam of 39m / 127 feet, and a draft of 36 ft. Upon inspection, it must be clear that all these specifications are for the 40,000 ton IAC-1 Vikrant, presently under construction, rather than the 65,000 ton IAC-2.

The centerpirece of INS Vishal will be the air wing of some 30 or more fixed-wing aircraft and 10 rotary-wing helicopters. [ As I expected] The fixed-wing aircraft is expected to be the Russian Mikoyan MiG-29K Fulcrum, or the a navalized form of the land-based lightweight fighter. These would be supplemented or replaced by the indigenous delta-winged HAL Tejas aircraft (navalized). However, the Indian Navy is also interested in heavier aircraft, such as the Sukhoi Su-33, Boeing F/A-18 Hornet or French Dassault Rafale. The Rafale was selected in 2012 by the Indian Air Force to replace its stock of outdated Mikoyan MiG-21 Fishbed fighters. The Grumman E-2 Hawkeye has been mentioned for the fixed-wing AEW role as has a modified AEW version of the Boeing V-22 Osprey tilt-rotor helicopter. Helicopter types expected include the Russian Kamov Ka-31 series (Airborne Early Warning (AEW)) or the British Westland Sea King (Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW)) - both navalized for operations at sea/over water.

With a CATOBAR carrier, the Navy will have to learn an entirely new set of procedures, presumably with a new generation of aircraft, in the next decade. Reports have suggested that the Indian Navy has shown interest in implementing the use of the EMALS system developed for the United States Navy, rather than outfitting the INS Vishal with a conventional steam-powered catapult, but this seems improbable, given the technical complexity of EMALS. Northrop Grumman, which has spent the better part of a decade trying to sell its E-2 Hawkeye to the Indian navy, had offered to help the navy with concept and integration of a steam catapult on the new carrier.

By mid-2012, India had started working on this second indigenous aircraft carrier, even as the construction of the first one had been marred by delay of over two years. The Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC)-II would be the largest ship in terms of the weight and size to have ever been built by the Navy. Asked by Press Trust of India about the specifications of the IAC-2, Navy sources said the work was going on and a number of design options were being explored. Navy sources expressed hope that by the time the IAC-II would be ready, the indigenously-built Naval Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) would also be fully mature for operating on it.

Initial design plans were drawn up in 2001, with funding secured in 2003 and initial work on INS Vishal begining in 2012. In an information session in Parliament, on 16 May 2007, Defence Minister A K Antony stated that induction of a third aircraft carrier [that is, a second unit of this class] is envisioned by 2017. He added that a decision to construct another vessel can be made only after the construction of the first ship has progressed beyond a certain state. This would suggest a keel laying date of post October 2010, which is the tentative launch date of the first ship. In an interview to the Times of India, dated 01 December 2007, the Chief of Naval Staff - Admiral Sureesh Mehta - stated that the second IAC is already on the drawing board and at least three such vessels are planned.

A second unit will also be built, although likely not delivered until around 2018. A third new carrier could be built, but realistic funding and construction dates are too far into the future to determine.

In 2009, the service invited information to support a purchase of aircraft for deck-based operations, which did not specify launch type but had been presumed to be Stobar. Several companies were asked for information: Russia’s MiG and Sukhoi for the MiG-29K and Su-33, respectively; Dassault Aviation with the Rafale (noting that the Rafale could be modified for Stobar operations); Lockheed Martin’s F-35 Joint Strike Fighter; Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet; and two aircraft concepts—Saab’s Sea Gripen and Eurofighter’s Naval Typhoon. The Typhoon can be modified for Catobar operations, but it is unlikely that the economies of such a modification will work out.

By mid-2012, the Naval Design Bureau, which oversees design and implementation of all indigenous warship building efforts, is expected to freeze its requirements by year-end. As of December 2012, it was reported that India was stille "in the process of deciding whether its second indigenous aircraft carrier will be equipped with catapults." As of 2012, the launch date for the vessel was tentatively scheduled for sometime in 2017 with sea trials to be undertaken in 2020, and commissioning in 2022. The commissioning year is probably closer to 2025, due to the ambitious nature of the program. This may result from the focus on finding local solutions without foreign assistance. This pushed existing carriers such as the INS Viraat into service beyond 2014. The INS Vikramaditya - a converted ex-Soviet/Russian Kiev-class carrier - was scheduled to be commissioned in 2013 as an interim solution for the Indian Navy until the arrival of the INS Vikrant and INS Vishal.

The navy chief, Adm. Nirmal Verma, remained circumspect, saying in August 2012: “It is too early to talk about the [second carrier]. There are other priorities right now, particularly the first carrier. Our designers are working toward the second.”

R 22 Viraat 


In that case choice of EMALS is logical

Moronic journalism. INS Vishal would be CATOBAR carrier then how can it would operate Su-33 or MIG-29K which can only takeoff from Ski jump. Only choice would be F-18 H, F-35C, Rafale M & naval CATOBAR compatible LCA if developed.
 
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I think that the Russian Navy is gonna switch to catapult systems as well?

If so, a naval FGFA for catapult systems wont be too far away and would obviously a great choice for the Vishal.
 
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I have a question, Why IN is not looking for nuclear propulsion for IAC2, I believe the one on Arihant can be tweaked ( slightly bigger) to generate the required energy? Is this feasible? or IN not confident about nuclear prop for now?
Tx
 
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hehehe don't worry paaji. It would be operational by 2025.

Operational by 2025 to fight the Asteroid!! 
I guess it's more likely with Babckock as a partner, since the UK are more trusted by the US, but DCNS would be the better choice, since they already have made CATOBAR carriers, while the Brits didn't. But as I said in other posts, we don't need approval for EMALS, but approval for catapults at all! Till now they even denied steam catapults to us, so even if we get only steam catapults now, it would be a clear improvement for IN, but no matter what, we have to wait and see what they want in return and if the deal is still worth it.

I think this will be the last of the IAC to be built for another 25-30 years (Actually I do not know the life span of a well built and maintained AC). If yes then can it be nuclear propelled as we have experienced in INS Arihant or do we have to built a 3rd AC with nuclear propulsion? Or Nuclear propulsion system is out of bound for us?
 
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I think that the Russian Navy is gonna switch to catapult systems as well?

If so, a naval FGFA for catapult systems wont be too far away and would obviously a great choice for the Vishal.
very long time bro.
 
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