Inherited Professionalism.

[Windjammer]

While some achievements make it into headlines, others remain obscured and blend into history.
Albeit, the well deserving heroics of Saiful Azam and Sattar Alvi, have been well documented, one other PAF pilot who has seldom being mentioned in the laurels of aerial warfare is Flt. Lt. M. Hatif. He was another PAF pilot deputed to Middle East during the Yum Kippur Arab, Israeli war of 1973...... during which while flying an Egyptian Air force MIG-21, he shot down an F-4 Phantom of the Israeli Air Force.
It must be noted that in 1970s, the American built Phantom was regarded as the best fighter aircraft of it's era.
Flt. Lt. later became an Air Vice Marshal in the PAF.

On 23 October 1973, PAF pilot Flt. Lt. M. Hatif on deputation to Egyptian Air Force (EAF) was flying a EAF MiG-21 in a defensive combat air patrol (CAP) over Egypt when he was vectored towards an intruding Israeli Air Force (IDF/AF) F-4 Phantom. In the ensuing dogfight, Flt. Lt. M. Hatif shot down the Israeli Phantom.

PAF vs IAF - Naseeb.com

 

[SBD-3]

While some achievements make it into headlines, others remain obscured and blend into history.
Albeit, the well deserving heroics of Saiful Azam and Sattar Alvi, have been well documented, one other PAF pilot who has seldom being mentioned in the laurels of aerial warfare is Flt. Lt. M. Hatif. He was another PAF pilot deputed to Middle East during the Yum Kippur Arab, Israeli war of 1973...... during which while flying an Egyptian Air force MIG-21, he shot down an F-4 Phantom of the Israeli Air Force.
It must be noted that in 1970s, the American built Phantom was regarded as the best fighter aircraft of it's era.
Flt. Lt. later became an Air Vice Marshal in the PAF.


PAF vs IAF - Naseeb.com

Though Phantom was the latest machine, but i still remember USN phantom pilots acknowledging that when it came to fight at high altitude with Mig-21, the best strategy for phantom pilot was to run and come the other day. A detailed account of story would be interesting indeed.

 

[Mabs]

Too bad, Saiful Azam changed his allegiance to BAF after 1971. So he retired as an officer from BAF, not PAF and Bangladeshi cadets got the invaluable opportunity to learn from this amazing pilot. Oh, and do you guys know that he is the highest scoring "Muslim" pilot of all time against the Israeli Air Force.

While I understand why you would say this but my man, all of his kills were made while he was in the service of PAF. He might have changed his allegiance but all his heroics are still attributed to PAF and not BAF. That does not make BAF any less worthy but just wanted to put this on the record.

 

[fatman17]

^why fight over the past - it cannot be changed whatever one says or claims.

 

[Windjammer]

This is allegedly gun camera shot of the Israeli Phantom, which was shot down by the PAF Pilot, Flt. Lt. M. Hatif.

 

[Bratva]

can you explain what is the clutter on left side of picture

 

[Bratva]

Did any incident occurred where Deputed PAF pilots planes were drowned by Israeli Airforce or Any Deputed PAF pilot died in the line of duty?

 

[MastanKhan]

Gentlemen,

Might I ask as to the purpose for bringing in these older news items at this stage into the limelight. Are you people trying to instigate a reaction from israel on this issue----. Don't we have enough troubles of our own that we want to invite some more----.

Is their such a lack of common sense here---MIG 21 was no less of a fighter as compared to the phantom ---that was the time when man behind the machine counted more so---only problem with the mig21 was that it had short legs-----.

Mind you----battles of today were not going to be won by telling stories of the old-------these battles are going to be won with what you have procured and tarined on yesterday to fight fight the wars to tomorrow.

People---this glory is close to 40 years old---there has to be some kind of shame attached to bragging things that old----has the desperation level reached such heights --- that we have to reach that far back to get to know ourselves.

 

[Windjammer]

Gentlemen,

Might I ask as to the purpose for bringing in these older news items at this stage into the limelight. Are you people trying to instigate a reaction from israel on this issue----. Don't we have enough troubles of our own that we want to invite some more----.

Is their such a lack of common sense here---MIG 21 was no less of a fighter as compared to the phantom ---that was the time when man behind the machine counted more so---only problem with the mig21 was that it had short legs-----.

Mind you----battles of today were not going to be won by telling stories of the old-------these battles are going to be won with what you have procured and tarined on yesterday to fight fight the wars to tomorrow.

People---this glory is close to 40 years old---there has to be some kind of shame attached to bragging things that old----has the desperation level reached such heights --- that we have to reach that far back to get to know ourselves.

With all due respect, after reading your comments, one can not help but wonder, why the Americans keep churning out WW-2 and Vietnam era movies,
In the journals of air war fare, why the term pre-emptive strikes and six day war is often quoted as an example.
Perhaps we should demolish all our historical sites and relics since they take up space, besides we don't build them like that any more.
In short my dear, you learn from your past, implement it into present and prepare for the future.
I am sure you will agree, " In the line of proud traditions" is not a term of a bygone era.

 

[kingdurgaking]

In short my dear, you learn from your past, implement it into present and prepare for the future.
I am sure you will agree, " In the line of proud traditions" is not a term of a bygone era.

Rightly said... Learn from the past and adapt to the future..

 

[MastanKhan]

Sirs,

What is the comparison with the americans over here-----they are not down and out and have buzzards flying overhead for the cracass----.

People even have a clue what the term learning from your past means---. Learning from the past means to look up the shortcomings, understand your mistakes and make ammends to confront the issues of the future and everyday living and don't make the mistakes of similiar magnitudes again----( mistakes will be made eventually) .

We are down on our knees-----we have enemies surrounding us from all the sides----and you people are coming out with buried and dead issues about how we humiliated someone 40 years ago-----so that now this someone may also want to avenge their loss----.

What kind of warrior families do you people come from----don't your fathers and grandfathers tell you about strategy---gamesmanship---deceit and deception against the enemy---manipulating the enemy's allies----creating goodwill gestures with the enemy's alliances---not bringing out the old and sore subjects that would humiliate the enemy's ally whence he may wake up and actively starts planning to seek revenge.

Forget about alll that----use the same techniques that you use with your friends and foes at colelge----people you don't want to insult----because they are stronger----you stay away from them and make goodwill gestures to them---. Talk and treat other nations as you are playing the scenario of everyday college university living in pakistan. How you make it through adversity against Jamiaat or their opponents or against anyone.

If you are a non jamaati----do you yell and scream slogans against jamaati's for no reason----do you people intentionally yell at the jamaati's to come and get re-involved in something that was buried a longtime ago----if you don't----then treat the nations in a similiar manner.

The saying of Hazrat Ali-----' a bird gets caught in a net due to its feathers and a man by his tongue '.


Being a pakistani---I can tell you----it is so difficult to admit to your mistakes and and accept them----once we make mistakes----we compound on them by finding reasons to justify what we wrongly uttered.

The arab war was not our war----we should never have participated in it---the reason being----the arabs did not go to war to fight a war----what they went for----they only know----. The moment we saw this----we should not have committed our assets-----for what cause we were committing ourselves---.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

I think what MK is saying -- do not pick fights with more enemies when you have your hands full from both external and internal enemies. Provoking a potential enemy at this point in time is not a prudent policy from any which way one see's it.

A good place to discuss past deeds and tactics would be to dicuss them in the History Section. That way it becomes a more clinical review and subsequent analysis instead of a chest thumping session.

 

[blain2]

can you explain what is the clutter on left side of picture

Seems like buildings etc.

---------- Post added at 10:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:46 AM ----------

Did any incident occurred where Deputed PAF pilots planes were drowned by Israeli Airforce or Any Deputed PAF pilot died in the line of duty?

No losses were suffered by the PAF. Also keep in mind that PAF flew a fraction of the missions flown by the Arab Airforces.

 

[blain2]

Gentlemen,

Might I ask as to the purpose for bringing in these older news items at this stage into the limelight. Are you people trying to instigate a reaction from israel on this issue----. Don't we have enough troubles of our own that we want to invite some more----.

Is their such a lack of common sense here---MIG 21 was no less of a fighter as compared to the phantom ---that was the time when man behind the machine counted more so---only problem with the mig21 was that it had short legs-----.

Mind you----battles of today were not going to be won by telling stories of the old-------these battles are going to be won with what you have procured and tarined on yesterday to fight fight the wars to tomorrow.

People---this glory is close to 40 years old---there has to be some kind of shame attached to bragging things that old----has the desperation level reached such heights --- that we have to reach that far back to get to know ourselves.

Be that as it may, however traditions of excellence, military folklore and the past are a huge aspect of morale and confidence amongst the members of the service of the day. I myself do not care much about PAF vs. IDFAF battles, and the bravado that goes along with it as they were too few to spend a lot of time on, but PAF has had an excellent run on things. We have had some really exceptional air crews and the first post is a proof of this legacy. This is a past that should be celebrated. Pilots like F S Hussain, a legend of legends, are known to but a few. This should not be the case.

 

[MastanKhan]

Exceptional is for show----slow and steady wins the race---Blain----I don't understand what you want to say---or what is the significance and relation of your post regarding this chest thumping that has been going around.