qsaark
SENIOR MEMBER
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Well you again are back at the start point.
Started what? Ethnic cleansing?
Not the ethnic cleansing, but the arrival of Afghan Refugees and the change in the demography.
So are most in Balochistan.
Tomorrow i may find you saying that as many Sindhis have shifted to Punjab so there is a threat for the Punjabi residents!
There will never be a threat to Punjab residents until and unless the Sindhis start breeding like rabbits.
Moreover, i think you want to suggest that There should be nobody other than sindhis in Sindh, nobody other than the Punjabis in Punjab, and so forth!
One ethnic group must not be allowed to change the demography.
Uzbaks and Tajiks in balochistan !!! wow!
So you don’t know about that?
Ahan!
i wonder why dont they ban entry to the foreigners and aliens.
BTW, i happened to interview a Native American when i was in the States, i'll quote the interview if you require it, i never find any 'crib' in that interview!
They have already limited the entry of the aliens. Regarding your interview with a Native American, there are always Mir Jaffars and Mir Sadiqs in every nation so I am not surprised. If I agree with your logic, than what is all the fuss about Palestinian land occupied by the Jews?
So why it doesnt bother you?
Karachi is liable to be taken over by the 'immigrnts' but it hurts when they similar things happen to Balochistan?
A wrong thing is wrong both in Sindh as well as in Balochistan. Had Sindhis of 1940s knew that they were going to become a minority in their own lands, they would have never allowed immigrants to settle in Karachi.
No doubt the Balochs are still poor as they dont want to react and interact with outsiders. Keeping within themselves and not allowing the influx of fresh blood no doubt stagnate the genes.
They have no problem with interacting with the settlers; they just don’t want these settlers to steal their belongings. They have a very good gene pool, and there is no need to mix it with other gene pool. I am surprise who lowly you think of these people.
Ever wonder Karachi, Lahore, Peshawar etc etc are more advanced? (except for their being the provincial capitals) Quetta again can be included in the list because it some how or the other have allowed the access to the outside world.
I am not against it.
Yes it does.
Try to visit those areas, they have totally changed because of these institution.
By change i mean that women still do 'parda', men still keep beards, they still are aggressive and emotional and they still eat lots of 'niswar', so no change as regards to traditions and customs, which should worry you (as you are worried about the demographic changes in Balichistan) but they are more aware of many many things as compared to the areas which are 'away' from army's and airforce's influence!
Get some time and try to compare the 'growth' in the initial stages in those areas and the development there today. Also compare this 'rate' to those areas that remained void of the military access.
All this development and enlightenment can be achieved without the presence of Army. In other more civilized and much more developed countries (Pakistan may be unique or perhaps Burma), Army is not sent for these jobs.
What exactly is the problem in establishing more cantonments?
Other than it would restrict access to sardars and smugglers and it will pose a constant check on drug lords and car snatchers?
I never knew that Army is so eager to take up the role of Police and paramilitary. This is for the first time I have heard that Army is needed to control smuggling and Sardars. The highest concentration of Army is in Punjab, yet billions of rupees worth of smuggling takes place across the Indian and Pakistani Punjab border. If Army in such numbers can’t control that smuggling, how on earth is Army is hoping to control it in a province like Balochistan?
i wonder why people never resisted establishment of cantts in Sindh and Punjab, they also come from the same country.
Because they are needed in Punjab and Sindh because of the Enemy on the East. What enemy you see on western borders, Iran?
Only and only if, people as leanered as you stop thinking about callow ideas and start telling your own people the benefits of these developments, things would have been very much different.
An example:
When it was decided the a cantt should be made in Pano Aqil, there was so much resistance that the Army even had to make use of tanks, but today when the cantt has been established every tome dick and harry wishes that another cantt be made in the surroundings.
Reasons:
Army schools were constructed.
A CMH which provides care to hundreds is there.
A railway station was made there, just because it was in the requirements of the cantt. And ofcurse the locals benefits from it the most.
That is THE problem. Schools were not there because Civilians don’t deserve schooling? Hospital was not there because civilians don’t get sick? A railway station was not there because civilians don’t travel? All that came after Army came.
The 'demographic' changes that the Army brought along (100s of officers who accidentally happened to be well read and well groomed and thousands of troops who again are better then many poor souls because of the 'awareness' and education that the army imparts in them) paved a way for the locals to compete and 'be like' them. These 1000 of men directly and indirectly boosted the local economy.
Only Army officers are well-read and well-groomed? Civilians you think are illiterate and un-civilized?
Not to mention the requirements of the military itself and of its men to ask for things that were usually not available in Pano Aqil initially (like removable hard drive, IDE to SATA cables, Chicken nuggets, 90 gram papers, binding/printing facilities, excessive transportation systems, computer accessories..i really have to get down to these petty things as still there are majority of areas in Pakistan where people dont even know of these things)
And you suggest that only Army uses these things? We civilians use Jungle trash?
i dont want to say that the Army was some kinda superior being and the poor residents of PAqil were inferior but that thing is that humans tend to learn from others. If i see something new and nice what stops me to adopt it? i dont say that hadn't the Army been there they would have stayed in the dark ages, but atleast it acted as a catalyst!
Your above paragraphs clearly suggest what you think of Army and what you think of civilians.
When i was in Siachen i had to conduct a survey as regards to the developments of the locals in Dansum and surroundings.
i observed the following things:
Those people there never even cooked the food due to the extreme cold. They just used to make a mixture of flour and stuff and bury it in the ground for the coming six months and just ate out from the ground.
The Army told them how to cook and use a thing known as 'cooking oil'. well i dont mean that we run the cooking classes there, but ofcourse when i will start 'importing' oil in that area and hiring the locals as cooks with the passage of time the 'awareness' will prevail.
This I have heard for the first time and find it extremely hard to believe. At any rate, if they were getting required calories and if they were not getting sick from that ‘uncooked’ food, it is totally acceptable medically.
They never knew that what chicken is (most of them), they were unaware of stuff like condiments, TV was like a magic to them, what to talk about computers and printers!!
Of course because up in those mountains and in extreme cold, they don’t have poultry farms. Just like in the plains of Punjab you dont see polar Bears or Penguins. By the way, did you introduce them to Elephants and Zebras?
If the Army wanted it could have asked an 'outsider' to contract the stuff that it requirs, but no, instead the locals were encourged to bring in the stuff, they were 'forced; that they should go out of that 1 km by 1 km village and see the world outside. Which, gladly, they did and the end result, you find their kids playing games on PCs, you find them drinking pepsi and stuff, you find them wearing guud cloths, they know that there is something known as newspaper.
Because it was a cheaper alternative for the Army. You did not good to them, you just saved yourself some money.
Gradually kids were 'made' to reach APSs in pindi and other areas (those who excelled in the local schools run by the Army) and now i quote you a long list from the area of the men who today serve the Army as Officers!! i call this an achievement! A place were the only 'mashgala' was soothing the Zohs (the big huge cow type creature with long hairs usually found in the high mountains) now were talking about the poverty in the country and seemed concerned about the global economic crisis!!
The question is this: Army has ruled this unfortunate country for 40 or so years. Why General Iskandar Mirza, or FM Ayub Khan, or General Yahya Khan or Genral Zia or General Musharraf never bothered to send people to educate those un-civilized mountain people?
The people who used to sit and sh!t anywhere they wanted were much mature and sensible now.
I have seen the villagers in Punjab and Sindh using the ‘natural’ toilets! Why Army was not able to make these people more mature and sensible?
Today all of them know how speak Urdu, initially we had to talk with them as if we were talking to someone in the stone ages!
Can you speak Latin, or Malay or Japanese, or Sawahili? Do you think those who do not talk in Urdu or in English are from stone ages?
i dont say that the Army is the savior but the thing is that it has a default process which tends to bring development along due to its huge size and requirements!
Oh sure that is exactly what you are trying to shove down my ‘civilian’ throat. But I don’t buy this, and Balochs don’t buy this.
Though this is not exactly the reason of constructing the cantts in Balochistan but it definitely is a small shine in the bigger picture!
To bring civilization, all that is needed to be done is to construct a road across those areas. The development and civilization will automatically reach to the people.
Enigma, what you wrote was neither surprising nor new for me. I have heard the same kind of stuff from many Army officers who believe that Civilians are lower species. What really surprised me however was that nobody, not a single person replied to what you wrote here in past one week. This suggests to me how insensitive we have become and how we have accepted the supremacy of Army rule as our fate. Or probably for most of the members this was not an issue at all. At any rate, for me, in the words of Iqbal "mujhe hai hukm-e-azaN".
This same mentality resulted in the separation of East Pakistan and if this prevails as is, Army will only be left with Punjab to preach this ‘Army supremacy’ philosophy. You have no clue how much Army is hated in smaller provinces. A time will come (though I wish it never comes) when you’ll realize that you Army guys were terribly wrong on several key issues. Sooner you start considering the civilians as much human as much the military is, better it will be for your own survival.
Started what? Ethnic cleansing?
Not the ethnic cleansing, but the arrival of Afghan Refugees and the change in the demography.
So are most in Balochistan.
Tomorrow i may find you saying that as many Sindhis have shifted to Punjab so there is a threat for the Punjabi residents!
There will never be a threat to Punjab residents until and unless the Sindhis start breeding like rabbits.
Moreover, i think you want to suggest that There should be nobody other than sindhis in Sindh, nobody other than the Punjabis in Punjab, and so forth!
One ethnic group must not be allowed to change the demography.
Uzbaks and Tajiks in balochistan !!! wow!
So you don’t know about that?
Ahan!
i wonder why dont they ban entry to the foreigners and aliens.
BTW, i happened to interview a Native American when i was in the States, i'll quote the interview if you require it, i never find any 'crib' in that interview!
They have already limited the entry of the aliens. Regarding your interview with a Native American, there are always Mir Jaffars and Mir Sadiqs in every nation so I am not surprised. If I agree with your logic, than what is all the fuss about Palestinian land occupied by the Jews?
So why it doesnt bother you?
Karachi is liable to be taken over by the 'immigrnts' but it hurts when they similar things happen to Balochistan?
A wrong thing is wrong both in Sindh as well as in Balochistan. Had Sindhis of 1940s knew that they were going to become a minority in their own lands, they would have never allowed immigrants to settle in Karachi.
No doubt the Balochs are still poor as they dont want to react and interact with outsiders. Keeping within themselves and not allowing the influx of fresh blood no doubt stagnate the genes.
They have no problem with interacting with the settlers; they just don’t want these settlers to steal their belongings. They have a very good gene pool, and there is no need to mix it with other gene pool. I am surprise who lowly you think of these people.
Ever wonder Karachi, Lahore, Peshawar etc etc are more advanced? (except for their being the provincial capitals) Quetta again can be included in the list because it some how or the other have allowed the access to the outside world.
I am not against it.
Yes it does.
Try to visit those areas, they have totally changed because of these institution.
By change i mean that women still do 'parda', men still keep beards, they still are aggressive and emotional and they still eat lots of 'niswar', so no change as regards to traditions and customs, which should worry you (as you are worried about the demographic changes in Balichistan) but they are more aware of many many things as compared to the areas which are 'away' from army's and airforce's influence!
Get some time and try to compare the 'growth' in the initial stages in those areas and the development there today. Also compare this 'rate' to those areas that remained void of the military access.
All this development and enlightenment can be achieved without the presence of Army. In other more civilized and much more developed countries (Pakistan may be unique or perhaps Burma), Army is not sent for these jobs.
What exactly is the problem in establishing more cantonments?
Other than it would restrict access to sardars and smugglers and it will pose a constant check on drug lords and car snatchers?
I never knew that Army is so eager to take up the role of Police and paramilitary. This is for the first time I have heard that Army is needed to control smuggling and Sardars. The highest concentration of Army is in Punjab, yet billions of rupees worth of smuggling takes place across the Indian and Pakistani Punjab border. If Army in such numbers can’t control that smuggling, how on earth is Army is hoping to control it in a province like Balochistan?
i wonder why people never resisted establishment of cantts in Sindh and Punjab, they also come from the same country.
Because they are needed in Punjab and Sindh because of the Enemy on the East. What enemy you see on western borders, Iran?
Only and only if, people as leanered as you stop thinking about callow ideas and start telling your own people the benefits of these developments, things would have been very much different.
An example:
When it was decided the a cantt should be made in Pano Aqil, there was so much resistance that the Army even had to make use of tanks, but today when the cantt has been established every tome dick and harry wishes that another cantt be made in the surroundings.
Reasons:
Army schools were constructed.
A CMH which provides care to hundreds is there.
A railway station was made there, just because it was in the requirements of the cantt. And ofcurse the locals benefits from it the most.
That is THE problem. Schools were not there because Civilians don’t deserve schooling? Hospital was not there because civilians don’t get sick? A railway station was not there because civilians don’t travel? All that came after Army came.
The 'demographic' changes that the Army brought along (100s of officers who accidentally happened to be well read and well groomed and thousands of troops who again are better then many poor souls because of the 'awareness' and education that the army imparts in them) paved a way for the locals to compete and 'be like' them. These 1000 of men directly and indirectly boosted the local economy.
Only Army officers are well-read and well-groomed? Civilians you think are illiterate and un-civilized?
Not to mention the requirements of the military itself and of its men to ask for things that were usually not available in Pano Aqil initially (like removable hard drive, IDE to SATA cables, Chicken nuggets, 90 gram papers, binding/printing facilities, excessive transportation systems, computer accessories..i really have to get down to these petty things as still there are majority of areas in Pakistan where people dont even know of these things)
And you suggest that only Army uses these things? We civilians use Jungle trash?
i dont want to say that the Army was some kinda superior being and the poor residents of PAqil were inferior but that thing is that humans tend to learn from others. If i see something new and nice what stops me to adopt it? i dont say that hadn't the Army been there they would have stayed in the dark ages, but atleast it acted as a catalyst!
Your above paragraphs clearly suggest what you think of Army and what you think of civilians.
When i was in Siachen i had to conduct a survey as regards to the developments of the locals in Dansum and surroundings.
i observed the following things:
Those people there never even cooked the food due to the extreme cold. They just used to make a mixture of flour and stuff and bury it in the ground for the coming six months and just ate out from the ground.
The Army told them how to cook and use a thing known as 'cooking oil'. well i dont mean that we run the cooking classes there, but ofcourse when i will start 'importing' oil in that area and hiring the locals as cooks with the passage of time the 'awareness' will prevail.
This I have heard for the first time and find it extremely hard to believe. At any rate, if they were getting required calories and if they were not getting sick from that ‘uncooked’ food, it is totally acceptable medically.
They never knew that what chicken is (most of them), they were unaware of stuff like condiments, TV was like a magic to them, what to talk about computers and printers!!
Of course because up in those mountains and in extreme cold, they don’t have poultry farms. Just like in the plains of Punjab you dont see polar Bears or Penguins. By the way, did you introduce them to Elephants and Zebras?
If the Army wanted it could have asked an 'outsider' to contract the stuff that it requirs, but no, instead the locals were encourged to bring in the stuff, they were 'forced; that they should go out of that 1 km by 1 km village and see the world outside. Which, gladly, they did and the end result, you find their kids playing games on PCs, you find them drinking pepsi and stuff, you find them wearing guud cloths, they know that there is something known as newspaper.
Because it was a cheaper alternative for the Army. You did not good to them, you just saved yourself some money.
Gradually kids were 'made' to reach APSs in pindi and other areas (those who excelled in the local schools run by the Army) and now i quote you a long list from the area of the men who today serve the Army as Officers!! i call this an achievement! A place were the only 'mashgala' was soothing the Zohs (the big huge cow type creature with long hairs usually found in the high mountains) now were talking about the poverty in the country and seemed concerned about the global economic crisis!!
The question is this: Army has ruled this unfortunate country for 40 or so years. Why General Iskandar Mirza, or FM Ayub Khan, or General Yahya Khan or Genral Zia or General Musharraf never bothered to send people to educate those un-civilized mountain people?
The people who used to sit and sh!t anywhere they wanted were much mature and sensible now.
I have seen the villagers in Punjab and Sindh using the ‘natural’ toilets! Why Army was not able to make these people more mature and sensible?
Today all of them know how speak Urdu, initially we had to talk with them as if we were talking to someone in the stone ages!
Can you speak Latin, or Malay or Japanese, or Sawahili? Do you think those who do not talk in Urdu or in English are from stone ages?
i dont say that the Army is the savior but the thing is that it has a default process which tends to bring development along due to its huge size and requirements!
Oh sure that is exactly what you are trying to shove down my ‘civilian’ throat. But I don’t buy this, and Balochs don’t buy this.
Though this is not exactly the reason of constructing the cantts in Balochistan but it definitely is a small shine in the bigger picture!
To bring civilization, all that is needed to be done is to construct a road across those areas. The development and civilization will automatically reach to the people.
Enigma, what you wrote was neither surprising nor new for me. I have heard the same kind of stuff from many Army officers who believe that Civilians are lower species. What really surprised me however was that nobody, not a single person replied to what you wrote here in past one week. This suggests to me how insensitive we have become and how we have accepted the supremacy of Army rule as our fate. Or probably for most of the members this was not an issue at all. At any rate, for me, in the words of Iqbal "mujhe hai hukm-e-azaN".
This same mentality resulted in the separation of East Pakistan and if this prevails as is, Army will only be left with Punjab to preach this ‘Army supremacy’ philosophy. You have no clue how much Army is hated in smaller provinces. A time will come (though I wish it never comes) when you’ll realize that you Army guys were terribly wrong on several key issues. Sooner you start considering the civilians as much human as much the military is, better it will be for your own survival.
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