Indonesia had another high-seas encounter with China—but this time it brought a bigger boat

[Nike]

belonging is one thing, Under who's control is another thing!

We can see Singapore with the most powerful Airforce in SEA and US navy bases controls The Strait.

Besides, there is Australia factor around Indonisia, that's why, Indo needs China more and more in future!

Little Red Dot is part of Indonesian arms , they are supplement of Indonesian foreign policy and hard power

 

[gambit]

In March, an Indonesian patrol boat captured a Chinese fishing trawler illegally operating within Indonesia’s territorial waters. Before it could impound the offending vessel, however, two Chinese coast guard vessels appeared, stole back the trawler, and towed it back to international waters, leaving the Indonesians with only the Chinese crew to show for their efforts.

Last week there was a another, similar encounter, but with different outcome. This time around, the Indonesians brought a bigger boat: a Navy destroyer.

Both of the incidents took place around Indonesia’s remote Natuna islands, northwest of Borneo in the South China Sea. Beijing acknowledged last November that the islands belong to Indonesia.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/indonesi...t-brought-a-bigger-boat.432940/#ixzz4AeIk9A4U

When I was active duty (USAF), I learned a few things from our Navy friends. Of the many FYI bits of esoteric knowledge about the seas and navies, that land lubbers usually do not know, is the rules of engagements in peace time: white on white, grey on grey.

White = Civilian
Grey = Military

Basically, if the vessel is 'white', then at best the engagement should be a naval police force like a coast guard type vessel. Not a 'grey' like a full fledged navy ship. The idea is to keep the peace, even if there might be low level violence, at least the violence is local and would swiftly subside.

If the offending vessel is 'white' and was engaged by a 'white' law enforcer, it is NOT appropriate for the offender's country to respond with force to recapture the offending vessel, even if the responder is a 'white' vessel. What this mean is that it was wrong for China to retake the Chinese fishing vessel.

- If the Chinese vessel was truly in Indonesia's territorial waters, Indonesia was fully within legal rights to arrest the Chinese crew and impound the Chinese fishing boat.

- If the entire event was inside Indonesia's territorial waters, the recapture of the Chinese fishing boat by the Chinese coast guard vessels qualified as a 'grey on white', even if the the Chinese vessels were coast guard in assignment and mission.

- If the entire event was in Indonesia's territorial waters, China should have respected Indonesian laws and let the Chinese crew be arrested and the Chinese fishing boat impounded, then the entire event would have qualified as 'white on white'. The only violence would have been resistance to arrest by the Chinese fishing crew and would have been subdued by the Indonesian naval police force, aka the coast guard. Chinese legal petitions for return of Chinese nationals and fishing boat would be 'white on white'. That is how it should be and should have been.

 

[xunzi]

Completely irrelevent. We are curbing illegal boats within our own sovereign water. That's why, even after more than 170 boats getting blown up, we hardly heard any noise from our neighboring countries. They are mute, that's sign of understanding. They acknowladge and respect our stance on the matter. And no more clemency on drugs related offence. Indonesian authorities had sent 2 Australian drug offender to their final resting place last year.



That's what i advocated earlier. Cool your head off. Things are under control

No it is relevant in that you don't care about other country interest but only your own. That's why it is important to preach what you teach. Now of course, I am in support of you trying to go after your interest first but don't come and preach about something you can't practice.

 

[Krakatau Class]

belonging is one thing, Under who's control is another thing!

We can see Singapore with the most powerful Airforce in SEA and US navy bases controls The Strait.

Besides, there is Australia factor around Indonisia, that's why, Indo needs China more and more in future!

Do you really think Singapore can defence their tiny land should Indonesia invade them ?
Singapore is not Israel.
Even Israel will think twice or maybe 100 times should Indonesia located in Sinai.
But invading Singapore is a vanity.

 

[antonius123]

There is a saying, "you have to practice what you preach". LOL

If Indonesia actually practice that preach, you wouldn't blow up Vietnamese boats despite their government asking for mercy. This is not counting taking mercy on Australia cocaine citizen being lock up. LOL But we do understand our Indonesia friends' interest and concern regarding their territories. We have stated before that we recognized Natuna as Indonesia territory. The event was trigger by misunderstanding. W

Blowing pirate ships is not invasion

Do you really think Singapore can defence their tiny land should Indonesia invade them ?
Singapore is not Israel.
Even Israel will think twice or maybe 100 times should Indonesia located in Sinai.
But invading Singapore is a vanity.

Could be the other way round, that Singapore is more difficult to be invaded than Israel, because the only way to bring massive people (millions people if we think the number of people is our strength)/army invading Singapore is only through sea.

To invade Singapore, we need to defeat their Air Force at the first place, and that is almost impossible now. Otherwise millions of the invading people will be buried under the sea.

 

[antonius123]

Thats sounds beautiful but not plausible. Their numerous F35 and F15, awacs, SAMs are not sitting ducks like in your scenario.

Their radar can detect planes taking of from bintan/natuna and immediately send their stealth f35 to destroy airbase where su27/35 taking off.

How to bring those rockets near enough to their shore so that they can effectively reach and destroy targets? Except we have long range cruise missile like tomahawks.

If they have longer range rockets/missiles like tomahawks they can destroy airbase within 1000km range from their tiny island, or from their ships than the other way round our rockets destroy their airbase.

 

[Indos]

Thats sounds beautiful but not plausible. Their numerous F35 and F15, awacs, SAMs are not sitting ducks like in your scenario.

Their radar can detect planes taking of from bintan/natuna and immediately send their stealth f35 to destroy airbase where su27/35 taking off.

How to bring those rockets near enough to their shore so that they can effectively reach and destroy targets? Except we have long range cruise missile like tomahawks.

If they have longer range rockets/missiles like tomahawks they can destroy airbase within 1000km range from their tiny island, or from their ships.

From where you know that Singapore has F 35....? as I know their next plan is to upgrade their F16 until 2022, not yet buying that stealth fighter.

As I said most of their fighter asset is located in US, Australia, India. There are surprised attack and infiltration strategy that I have posted before, in which you dont mention on this reply.

Regardless of that, I do acknowledge that it is so hard to penetrate their defense system with our current asset even during 2020 time. So I give surprised attack and infiltration scenario as the possible invasion in 2020 time frame.

Talking about cruise missile, yeah it is a very important weapon to have.

Anyway, as I said before territorial expansion policy like we did under Soekarno and Soeharto (and also Hitler, Stalin, British Empire, Japanese Empire etc) is a stupid policy as we have already had a very large territory. Better focus on our economy and technological front. I prefer exercising soft power than hard power in term of expanding our influence and weight.

As said by our latest White Paper, we will put more focus on building our defense industry than just importing high tech defense system, and then build our defense power step by step through it.

Our weight in International politics is quite heavy even though still lacking in Military hardware. We better play smart, we are already the sole regional power in region ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_power ).

http://www.wsj.com/articles/france-...-israeli-palestinian-peace-process-1464949662

By
MATTHEW DALTON and

FELICIA SCHWARTZ
Updated June 3, 2016 7:02 p.m. ET

PARIS—World powers meeting here said on Friday they would develop a package of economic and security incentives in the coming months to push Israel and the Palestinians to make peace, after months of violence that has left officials fearing that the two sides are primed for another full-scale conflict.

 

[Indos]

yeah we already big boy and help Peace talks youre country against The Moro National Liberation Front in 1992

Yup, after we forget our aggressive policy during Soekarno and early Soeharto, we become part of the solution and piece in our region. Beside peace process in Philippine we also play big role in Cambodia.

http://www.un.org/en/peacekeeping/missions/past/unamicbackgr.html

Paris Conference

In July 1988, the representatives of the Phnom Penh government and the three Cambodian opposition parties met informally in Indonesia. That first direct contact, followed by another in February 1989, set the scene for the Paris Conference on Cambodia. The Conference was held from 30 July to 30 August 1989 and was attended by the representatives of all four Cambodian parties and of 18 other States: Australia, Brunei Darussalam, Canada, China, France, India, Indonesia, Japan, Laos, Malaysia, Philippines, Singapore, Soviet Union, Thailand, United Kingdom, United States, Viet Nam and Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe was then chairman of the Non-Aligned Movement. Secretary-General Javier Pérez de Cuéllar was present. France and Indonesia co-chaired the Conference which, although mapping out a broad strategy to move towards peace, was unable to agree on a comprehensive settlement. The major unresolved issues were the power-sharing formula during a transitional period before elections and the drafting of a new constitution, and the role of PDK. The conference was suspended without being able to agree on an international mechanism to verify the withdrawal of Vietnamese troops from Cambodia. That withdrawal, as announced by Viet Nam, was undertaken without international verification in September 1989. In Phnom Penh, the government of Mr. Hun Sen continued in power. Since May 1989, that government had been known as the Government of the State of Cambodia (SOC).

Intense diplomatic activity

There was intense diplomatic activity in the first half of 1990. The Cambodian parties met in Indonesia in February 1990 and in Tokyo in June 1990. In addition, a series of consultations was undertaken by the five permanent members of the Security Council beginning in January 1990. The basis for their discussions was a proposal put forward by Australia the previous October. After the first meeting on 15 and 16 January 1990, the Five issued a summary of conclusions in which they agreed to be guided by the following principles in working for a resolution of the Cambodia problem:

P-5 proposal

The United Nations, in preparation for a peacekeeping operation in Cambodia, sent several fact-finding missions to the country to study its devastated administrative, economic and social infrastructure and the requirements for the repatriation of refugees. The findings helped shape an August 1990 proposal from the five permanent members of the Security Council for a comprehensive settlement in Cambodia. The proposal was accepted by the four Cambodian parties at an AInformal Meeting on Cambodia in Jakarta on 10 September. They agreed to constitute a Supreme National Council (SNC) of 12 members and to accept Prince Sihanouk's proposal that the 12 members might elect a chairman. The Security Council in resolution 668 (1990) of 20 September endorsed the proposal. Indonesia and France then took charge of the negotiations to fill out the framework proposal into a peace agreement. At a meeting in Paris from 21 to 23 December 1990, they presented the draft agreements on a comprehensive political settlement to the 12 members of SNC. After some discussion, and the submission of an explanatory note by the five permanent members, SNC accepted the draft. It was then presented to Thailand and Viet Nam in February 1991.

Ceasefire

On 22 April 1991, the Secretary-General appealed jointly with France and Indonesia for a temporary cessation of hostilities in Cambodia as a gesture of good faith. As a result, a ceasefire went into effect on a voluntary basis and was generally observed over the next several months as negotiations continued. Meeting in July, SNC decided to elect Prince Sihanouk as its chairman. It also decided to send a letter signed by Prince Sihanouk asking the United Nations to dispatch a survey mission to Cambodia. In response, on 8 August, the Secretary-General informed the Security Council of his intention to proceed with the necessary arrangements. On 26 August, Prince Sihanouk wrote to the Secretary-General asking Ato have at least 200 United Nations personnel sent to Cambodia as observers in September 1991 in order to assist SNC in controlling the ceasefire and the cessation of foreign military assistance, as a first step within the framework of a comprehensive political settlement.

UNAMIC DEPLOYED

 

[pr1v4t33r]

As a big and responsible Nation, Indonesia has become the part of solution and always act as The stabilizing force in the region for many dacades. When Indonesia rumbles, ASEAN crumbles

 

[mike2000 is back]

Lol dont see why chinese and indonesian members here are arguing over such things.
Thing is China should and will back off this incudent and aboid escalation. China is already surrounded by hostile countries allied with the U.S in the region from Taiwan, japan, phillipines, Vietnam(a U S partner), etc plus there is also India with whom China has a terrirtorial dispute/rivalry which wont stop anytime soon, adding a big country like Indonesia to that lidt will be counter productive. It will only mean the U.S Navy will dominate the region even more than it is already. Lol

So cools heads should prevail in beijing. China has farrrrrrrr more to lose here than indonesia who has little to nothing to lose to be honest.

 

[Zero_wing]

I am talking about Natuna islands only. They belong to and are controlled by Indonesia. Chinese fisherman cannot
fish inside the eez of the natuna islands. That is all I am saying. Otherwise, I agree with you.

That what we said about ours guess what chinese said back again the chinese imperialist they got new toys and they think they just above everyone now

Dont be fooled by American propaganda. They encourage these ASEAN countries to enroach China territories and when China just defend her own interest. The American media will be full forced hooha about China being the aggressor.

Scarborough Shoal used to be a common ground for China and Pinoy fisherman. The American instigate the Aquino to kick out all Chinese fisherman from there. And China simply react by kicking out all Pinoy fisherman. Guess what, the US media start fabricate lies and paint China as sole aggressor.

https://books.google.com.sg/books?id=PgmV5quo0UMC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=Philippine+chase+out+Chinese+fisherman+in+scarborough+shoal&source=bl&ots=nfOOi8VCDI&sig=zAIHNGpZXlNk9YuB5pGg4CP3LNQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj__eDwo4TNAhVKqY8KHY9CDrwQ6AEIODAF#v=onepage&q=Philippine chase out Chinese fisherman in scarborough shoal&f=false

It just like Indian Nehru forward policy in 1962. The Indian slowly en camp inside Chinese territories inch by inch. You expect Chinese to just sit there and watch them doing it slowly by slowly?

Same as woody island reclaimed. The pinoy and vietnamese have long started islet reclaimation and no other make a sound. China simply by just react to these aggression, guess what? The western media just solely forcus on China reclaimation and try to shove other ASEAN countries action under the bed.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-southchinasea-vietnam-idUSKBN0NT04820150508

Let me ask you one question. If Indian slowly and slowly encamp inside Pakistan Kashmir area. Are you Pakistanis going to sit there , try lecture or talk them to give up their act or take real action to chase them out? Or you try to be double standard and claim China cant act while all other ASEAN countries can act? Becos SCS is solely ASEAN and not Chinese.

If Chinese claimed whole of Kashmir belongs to India, how would you feel?

Hi bigot its filipino try that again

 

[Sasquatch]

Threads cleaned up, trolling/flamebait posts and those insulting Indonesia have been deleted. On topic both China and Indonesia will play this down, cooler heads will prevail.