Indonesia Defence Forum

[afiq0110]

Wkwkwk believe i'm confused either

I thought you were "Menteri Retno" herself... Haha

 

[Cromwell]

I thought you were "Menteri Retno" herself... Haha

Wkwkwk i like her picture holding map of written Spratly islands, since i do believe our future foreign policies will be focused there ( South China Sea ), in following decade we are at doorstep of another major conflict and i wish Indonesia understand its position and must always at its best interests / winning side. That's why i use her picture.

 

[Chestnut]

AU was already planning on getting an additional Flanker Sq (Su-35) for Sq 14 even before this Typhoon thingie... So yeah, I'm pretty sure AU at the very least can support one other additional heavy fighter Sq...

Are you sure the AU wanted the Flankers, or parliament wants it?

No way they will disband Sq 11 just because the Typhoons are here...

They would if they don't have enough money to operate them. Which I doubt they do. Reaching IOC/FOC on a platform that's newly introduce with no commonality on preceeding platforms takes a lot of time and money. And with the Flankers being costlier to maintain over the F-16, it's a no brainer on which plane they're going to chop. If you don't believe me, let's just wait and see.

Btw what is this obsession of yours with Flankers being "hangar queens" anyway...? Sq 11/14 are flying and training with their Flankers regularly just like any other Squadron... You sure u're not mixing it up with RMAF's MKM...?

Because if the majority of the time your air frame flies is during major exercises or PR events because it isn't cost effective to operate as the engine life is SUBSTANTIALLY lower than the other combat aircraft you operate then it is be definition a "hangar queen".

Who the heck is comparing logistic costs with F-16s anyway...? I was just pointing out that at this moment Flanker pilots are able to practice AAR while Falcon pilots cannot... which is kinda ironic, as Falcons with its much shorter range is actually the one that needs it more compared to Flankers

Because your argument was:

They are flying regularly, training regularly, even doing trainings which F-16 pilots can't, like AAR...

So I counter argued that AAR capability is hardly a counter-argument to that. Another argument I can make is that ne being the Typhoon is also probe refueled, and not having the similar engine life issues of the Flanker. And two because it uses US weapons the Air Force doesn't need to spend a lot of money on a completely separate stock of weapons.

The latest 2 just returned in 2019...

Which meant that all payment and discussions were done PRIOR to CAATSA coming into effect.

and what does Russian transparency got anything to do with that..? Just because the general public doesn't know the details, doesn't mean it wasn't upgraded to the satisfaction of the AU...

Because I don't need to know the details. You can simply look at how the Russians will not export anything that they use themselves, anything for export is a clearly marked "export variant" which if their own policies in the Cold War has anything to say about it, are clearly heavily downgraded systems than what their own forces use.

And again why compare it to US fighters...? An upgrade is successful because it improved or added new capabilities compared to before the upgrade...

Because my argument was that:

I doubt it would offer much in terms of capability when compared to anything Europe or the US would offer.

Which begs the question on why the Air Force would bother keeping and upgrading the jets if they're a drain on the maintenance budget, offer no new capabilities over the Typhoon and F-16's, and have upgrades that don't provide any advantages over what the Typhoon or F-16 can do?

CAATSA concerns with getting new equipment of significant value, why would maintaining and upgrading existing assets be a concern...? and anyway our 4 Flankers were upgraded with CAATSA already active, and no issues... Regarding major purchases, let's see how CAATSA will deal with Egypt, India and Turkey first...

Because again, all payments and discussions were done PRIOR to CAATSA being a thing. Is is HIGHLY unlikely the US would let us off with a CAATSA waiver unless we buy 100+ Vipers.

Also:

i.) Egypt paid with cash, which we don't have.

ii.) India also paid with cash.

iii.) Turkey got booted out of the JSF program after the S-400 fiasco and are suffering it's own sanctions from the US as a result. If Erdogan goes forward with his PR stunt involving the Su-57, you can guarantee it's going to be a lot worse for them economically.

 

[Whizzack]

As I said previously buying Typhoon IMO is more due to cheap price and quick delivery and I dont think it will get upgrade because if it do the upgrade the delivery will be quite long and the price will be going up significantly.

Quick delivery and upgrade is still a possibility, especially if it's to be done in PTDI facilities... Once a deal is reached, the Typhoons could be flown here as is from Austria for a fast delivery and acceptance... and then upgrade it gradually in PTDI... this way Mindef's goal of getting something quickly can be achieved, and at the same time fulfilling the obligatory requirements for offsets as well...

 

[Cromwell]

Diversify is good but relying on Russia made aircraft isn't wise for now. Their supply chain has been in disaray after the fall of USSR. Some aviation/naval technology has fallen and kept by Ukraine as we all know, not to mention their fabrication. There was a time when even if we have the money the parts itself isnt avaiable. But they slowly getting it done now, the new (in development) "universal engine" and the latest introduction of AL41-F indicate that they are now moving in forward direction rather then busy cleaning up some mess. In the next 5 years or so I believe they could manage to build this reliable universal engine and then we can all discuss the diversification again. As good or as bad as they are, Russia is the solid diversification for us France come second imo. But for now this isnt the right time.

Tho this doesnt change the fact that they need to visit the bengkel more often then other fighter assets that we have in one year cycle thus reducing the overall fighter readyness.


Wait what? who and where? Why bringing other people personal stuff like occupation etc? Thats just completely inmature and silly at the same time.

Believe me all our activities and even our accounts are subject of discussion in another forum. I found out by accident, i barely saw local military forums untill recently

 

[NEKONEKO]

If we take Austrian typhoon, we need to upgrade it, we need more than just jets with expensive operational cost that can only doing intercept and patrol duty.
How much the cost for upgrade and where it will be upgraded?

lack of certain critical capabilities — including the PIRATE infrared sensor, a helmet-mounted display, and the EuroDASS self-defense suite. At the same time, the Austrian jets have no beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile and lack any air-to-ground capability.
...
exchanging the more advanced Tranche 2 jets for the baseline Tranche 1 standard with its more limited capabilities. Furthermore, six of these jets would be supplied as second-hand airframes from the German Luftwaffe.
...
The final decision on the sale requires not only a political consensus in Austria, but approval from the four Eurofighter partner nations — Germany, Italy, Spain, and the United Kingdom — as well as the United States.

Austria Wants To Offload Its Unwanted Eurofighter Typhoons On Indonesia

Transferring the Typhoons could provide Indonesia with a useful stopgap fighter, but threatens to leave Austrian airspace unprotected.

www.thedrive.com

 

[Fl0gger]

Wkwkwk believe me i'm confused either

Well dont take it seriusly just lough not worth it

 

[Philip the Arab]

So, if I can understand here do most of you guys not like K-FX and how South Korea doesn't want to give much tech transfer?

 

[Raduga]

So, if I can understand here do most of you guys not like K-FX and how South Korea doesn't want to give much tech transfer?

we dont like how our previous defense minister perform , the incident that happened in 2018 literally the one that cause all the mess we deal with south korea right now .

 

[Indos]

Quick delivery and upgrade is still a possibility, especially if it's to be done in PTDI facilities... Once a deal is reached, the Typhoons could be flown here as is from Austria for a fast delivery and acceptance... and then upgrade it gradually in PTDI... this way Mindef's goal of getting something quickly can be achieved, and at the same time fulfilling the obligatory requirements for offsets as well...

Yup it could be another likely scenario and since the planes still have long operation time (20 years), so they dont need to be refurbished. I believe it is for F 5 squadron replacement that has already been grounded.

On the other hand, by interpreting Prabowo latest statement that said he doesnt want to buy new fighter but instead repairing the old ones to save money, I believe it means Hawk replacement will not be executed until Jokowi administration is over.

There is big chance that our Hawk life time will be extended instead. Actually I also favor this policy since it will be good for KFX/IFX program. Giving more financial capability for the program which include the development and the future acquisitions cost.

I also dont believe 20 billion foreign loan for 2020-2024 period that our Mindef asked will be easily passed through Bappenas. It is because our mounting debt that is caused by government economic measure to tackle Covid 19 economic effect. Just to let every one understand the situation here, in 2021 our debt to GDP ratio will reach 41 percent which is a very alarming ratio. Before Covid 19, the ratio is around 29 percent.

Our government will also keep our state budget deficit above 3 percent until 2022 which means the government has thought that this pandemic related economic crisis is not going away soon. The tight measure will be likely still in place until Jokowi administration is over, particularly unessensial government foreign loan will likely be curbed to get the debt ratio back into its previous number sooner.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Indonesia’s debt jumps as government ramps up virus spending

The country’s debt-to-gross domestic product (GDP) ratio rose to 34.53 percent as of August, a jump from 29.8 percent recorded in the same month last year, Deputy Finance Minister Suahasil Nazara said on Monday.

www.thejakartapost.com

 

[san.geuk]

https://zonajakarta.pikiran-rakyat....ayar-program-jet-tempur-canggih-kfxifx?page=1

our cost share in kfx decrease to 18,8%

 

[NEKONEKO]

So, if I can understand here do most of you guys not like K-FX and how South Korea doesn't want to give much tech transfer?

I still support Indonesia participation in KFX project and regarding the tech transfer I guess ill just need to accept it, the only Indonesian company that participate in the project is only Pt DI after all, and there is many Korean company that is involved in developing many of KFX subsystem, should've include other Indonesian company to participate in subsystem development such as radar etc in the past.

 

[Philip the Arab]

we dont like how our previous defense minister perform , the incident that happened in 2018 literally the one that cause all the mess we deal with south korea right now .

Koreans were not willing to give much in this project either way which is why Turkey didn't want the joint program with them.

I still support Indonesia participation in KFX project and regarding the tech transfer I guess ill just need to accept it, the only Indonesian company that participate in the project is only Pt DI after all, and there is many Korean company that is involved in developing many of KFX subsystem, should've include other Indonesian company to participate in subsystem development such as radar etc in the past.

What parts are you going to produce?

 

[¿Por qué?]

Well Gripen operators are less compared to F-16 so spare parts availability might be a problem, and then back again to infrastructure & maintenance cost due to it being another type of fighter, Saab is interesting but i'm more inclined to their subsystems & gears. Carl Gustav, N-LAW, Giraffe radar, RBS-70, etc & even i'd like to know more about their offsets on Erieye AEWC vs proposed Boeing 737 AWACS Wedgetail but not Gripen, we already have F-16 & T-50i in its role.

Cost wise (total), it's a lot cheaper. In fact, it's hugely cheaper.

The actual plan was to have 64 units of F-16 and 96 units of Hawk, so 160 jets.

We now have 55 jets (F-16 + Hawk). So we still need 105 additional jets.

I can't imagine how expensive it'd be to purchase 105 F-16V.

Buying 105 Gripen we can save almost 40%. Those 40% is more than enough to build the new infrastructure.

On the operating cost, we even save 70%! (sorry, the CPFH for F-16V is more like $8000 than $7000). Operating 105 jets with 70% cost saving is huge.

After sales service wise, Gripen so far doesn't have any problems at all.

SAAB knows that they're not big name, so they are really committed in providing flexibility and very good after sales service/MRO.

Even the Thais managed to have in-service support (maintenance, repair, overhaul, etc) delivered by their local firm Thai Aircraft Industries (TAI).

 

[Logam42]

my advice is to avoid defense studies comment section , they are more toxic than a waste processing plant.

one of their loudest member accidentally reveal himself in the ROK Armed forces facebook page when their admin posted about indonesia KF-X payment delay , and trust me , they are the most clueless and delude person ive ever met.

Haha, thats a lot of likes. Popular sentiment it seems.

No worries. I barely have any time to muddle through other formils, I use this Indodefense formil keep up to date with all the defence and military news and its been a great help. While there are a few trolls here and there, my ignore list is actually quite short compared to other forums I've been active in in the past.

we dont like how our previous defense minister perform , the incident that happened in 2018 literally the one that cause all the mess we deal with south korea right now .

This is news to me. Ryamizar Ryancudu seemed to always be competent, even if he didn't have the influence Prabowo has. What exactly is his mess up in 2018?

I also dont believe 20 billion foreign loan for 2020-2024 period that our Mindef asked will be easily passed through Bappenas. It is because our mounting debt that is caused by government economic measure to tackle Covid 19 economic effect. Just to let every one understand the situation here, in 2021 our GDP to debt ratio will reach 40 percent which is a very alarming ratio. Before Covid 19, our debt to GDP ratio is only around 20 percent.

Our government will also keep our state budget deficit above 3 percent until 2022 which means the government has thought that this pandemic related economic crisis is not going away soon. The tight measure will be likely still in place until Jokowi administration is over, particularly unessensial government foreign loan will likely be curbed to get the debt ratio back into its previous number sooner.

Quick note: Our GDP to Debt Ratio was actually at 29% before covid 19. The Government did keep it below 30, but only barely.

Also, it is my belief that the deficit above 3% until 2022 is not only to fight pandemic, but also so that government can spend at precovid levels for other sectors as well. As I see it there is a big chance that while out rising Debt to GDP ratio will slow after 2022, the administration tasked to bring it back down to below 30% is the administration after Jokowi.

Partially due to "kick the can down the road, someone else's problem" but also because in the post-covid global recovery which may well last till 2024, our economy will rely more on government spending and consumption.

So there is a chance a lot of these procurements might still happen. Especially due to Prabowo's influence. Jokowi might see the funding of defense programs as a means to ensure Prabowo and the military stay supportive of his administration