Indonesia Defence Forum

[CountStrike]

Hopefully, Mistral which may not be sent to Russia eventually sent to Indonesia... like Nahkoda ragam Class..

 

[Indos]

He he very interesting gossip, can understand everything, Google translate

When it comes to tot with the Russians, very often have to twist their arms. India has plenty of issues with that. Vietnam wanted to build the Gepards under license, but the Russians just kept stalling.

One thing about the SU-35 is that if you use the 3D vectoring engine nozzles, that wears the engine real fast, it only last 500 hours and then it has to be overhauled.

I. I have used "slank" language in my first statement, I dont know whether it can be translated into a comprehensible version using Google translate ,even though I have to admit that Latin words that we use are easy to be translated by Google

2. Russian has some chance to fill our needs in our version of KFX (which is IFX) in avionics, engine, etc, and this potency a head should force them into a condition in which they cannot play anything with us (just like the way they did with other nations as your example), because at such big program (even it is the biggest military program South Korea ever has) we need a trusted party, and so far we are quite satisfied with the West European ones. Dont forget also about our long range SAM market that has huge potency in the future, as we havent had even one yet in land platform so far (only in naval ones).

3. Thanks for the info, it is one of the characteristic of 5 gen fighter, what I can say is that the experience that we are going to have in Su 35 will be useful for our KFX/IFX program. Thats why it is actually a really good idea. Maybe we can use Russian one for the program, and we are going to test them first before we choose the engine for our IFX. Of course we need to test this thrush vectoring engine effectiveness in real close combat simulation with our Su 27 and F-16 Block 52. It will be a very valuable knowledge to gather for any one having 5 gen fighter program underway.

To be honest, I dont know about our top brass strategy on this, whether they want to have 2 planes using 3 D thrush vectoring engine first and tested them before choosing another engines for another Su 35, but I do hope they choose good ones, as we have good engineers in KFX program that has studied this one already, people that should be our best adviser on deciding our strategic defense acquisition, particularly in jet fighter program.

Talking about high cost that burden us in long term if we use that kind of engine, so It means we need those engine to be overhauled in Indonesia, and we have several companies who has international reputation on that, particularly two of our state owned one in GMF and PT Dirgantara. Some part of the engine should also be produced here to decrease maintenance cost. We also have company who can produce aircraft engine parts which is PT Nusantara Turbin Propulsi which is a subsidiary company of PT Dirgantara.

 

[Carlosa]

I. I have used "slank" language in my first statement, I dont know whether it can be translated into a comprehensible version using Google translate ,even though I have to admit that Latin words that we use are easy to be translated by Google

2. Russian has some chance to fill our needs in our version of KFX (which is IFX) in avionics, engine, etc, and this potency a head should force them into a condition in which they cannot play anything with us (just like the way they did with other nations as your example), because at such big program (even it is the biggest military program South Korea ever has) we need a trusted party, and so far we are quite satisfied with the West European ones. Dont forget also about our long range SAM market that has huge potency in the future, as we havent had even one yet in land platform so far (only in naval ones).

3. Thanks for the info, it is one of the characteristic of 5 gen fighter, what I can say is that the experience that we are going to have in Su 35 will be useful for our KFX/IFX program. Thats why it is actually a really good idea. Maybe we can use Russian one for the program, and we are going to test them first before we choose the engine for our IFX. Of course we need to test this thrush vectoring engine effectiveness in real close combat simulation with our Su 27 and F-16 Block 52. It will be a very valuable knowledge to gather for any one having 5 gen fighter program underway.

To be honest, I dont know about our top brass strategy on this, whether they want to have 2 planes using 3 D thrush vectoring engine first and tested them before choosing another engines for another Su 35, but I do hope they choose good ones, as we have good engineers in KFX program that has studied this one already, people that should be our best adviser on deciding our strategic defense acquisition, particularly in jet fighter program.

Talking about high cost that burden us in long term if we use that kind of engine, so It means we need those engine to be overhauled in Indonesia, and we have several companies who has international reputation on that, particularly two of our state owned one in GMF and PT Dirgantara. Some part of the engine should also be produced here to decrease maintenance cost. We also have company who can produce aircraft engine parts which is PT Nusantara Turbin Propulsi which is a subsidiary company of PT Dirgantara.

Ha ha, I understood enough to get the picture, but no worries, its not my business.

The trust vectoring engines are definitely very useful in close combat; the question would be more like how often you would expect that those planes are going to get into close combat since they are very good at killing their targets at great distance. The extra maintenance cost will definitely be an issue. 500 hours compared to 4000 hours.
It would definitely be a plus to have a local engine maintenance facility.

You can't go wrong with SU-35 man, that's the top fighter right now after the F-22.

(shit i hope we can bought those Mistrals)

Forget about the Mistral, its totally customized for Russian needs and much equipment in it, including major modules of the hull were built by Russia and that belongs to Russia and has to be returned to them if they are not going to deliver the ships to Russia. Basically, they have to dismantle the ship in order to return those things to Russia. That whole thing is trouble more than anything else.

Spain can build you an even better one and cheaper, how about that?
Australia already have one, Turkey ordered it, Indonesia could be next.

 

[Indos]

Ha ha, I understood enough to get the picture, but no worries, its not my business.

The trust vectoring engines are definitely very useful in close combat; the question would be more like how often you would expect that those planes are going to get into close combat since they are very good at killing their targets at great distance. The extra maintenance cost will definitely be an issue. 500 hours compared to 4000 hours.
It would definitely be a plus to have a local engine maintenance facility.

You can't go wrong with SU-35 man, that's the top fighter right now after the F-22.

.

I dont think any fighter plane can just be said finish after long range missile being launched, especially for high maneuverability one. USA has made wrong decision once regarding this scenario before by not including guns into their fighter plane some decades ago. The thing that we should about to know here is the chance to use this maneuverability to avoid any in coming missile ( current version) to hit the plane from long range distance.

 

[Carlosa]

I dont think any fighter plane can just be said finish after long range missile being launched, especially for high maneuverability one. USA has made wrong decision once regarding this scenario before by not including guns into their fighter plane some decades ago. The thing that we should about to know here is the chance to use this maneuverability to avoid any in coming missile ( current version) to hit the plane from long range distance.

You are right, the vectoring nozzles would be very good to do a very sharp evasive turn in order to get the plane out of the detection envelope of the missile's seeker or the enemy's radar lock. It would also be of great help in a dogfight to position the plane in the desired position against an enemy fighter. It just comes at a price, that's all. It might be a good idea to have some planes with it and some without it, I don't know.

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

Saab in Naval Plans With Lundin
By Vanesha Manuturi on 08:20 pm Mar 12, 2015
Category Business, Front Page
Tags: Ludin, Saab, Saab Indonesia

Stockholm. Saab Indonesia, the local branch of Swedish aerospace and defense company Saab, plans to begin operations on its joint venture with shipbuilder Lundin Industry in East Java early next year in a strategy to strengthen its foothold in Southeast Asia’s largest economy.

Peter Carlqvist, the head of Saab Indonesia, said the joint venture — which sets out to be a hub for naval ship maintenance — has so far secured approvals from the Defense Ministry as well as the Investment Coordinating Board.

“We are ready to operate, but we have to wait for the contract from the navy to actually start,” Carlqvist said.

Saab will own 49 percent of the joint venture, while Lundin will control the remaining 51 percent, according to Carlqvist. The company will be located near the Banyuwangi naval base.

On top of a naval maintenance hub, Saab and Lundin also plan to use the joint venture to market a trimaran-based fast attack craft to potential customers in the region.

The joint venture, according to Carlqvist, embodies the commitments that Saab is prepared to do in transferring their technology to Indonesia.

The Linkoping-based defense company has been extending their reach in Indonesia since the establishment of its local representative office in 2013.

Aside from Lundin, Saab also has signed early-stage agreements with state electronics firm Len and state weapons manufacturers Pindad.

Dewa Made Juniarta Sastrawan, Indonesia’s ambassador for Sweden, noted that the government has been largely positive on Saab’s offers to Indonesia — which has ranged from a national tactical data link and airborne early warning radar system to the Gripen figher jet — but it remains unrushed in making the decision.

“I think [a collaboration with Saab] is a good opportunity. We have an opportunity to spur our downstream industry,” Dewa Made told reporters in Stockholm.

“We do have to admit that our procurement process is very lengthy,” he added.

Aviation expert Dudi Sudibyo echoed the ambassador’s positive sentiment on the Swedish company. Instead, he questioned the readiness level of Indonesia as the receiving end of the technology transfer.

“Our typical thought is that Saab is the only one who has to put a lot of money to the transfer of technology initiative, but actually, Indonesia should play a part as well in investing as well,” he said on Wednesday.

GlobeAsia traveled to Sweden at Saab’s invitation.

GlobeAsia

Saab in Naval Plans With Lundin - The Jakarta Globe

 

[Taygibay]

Spain can build you an even better one

LOL You wish!

More seriously, this is a bad comparison as both ship types have entirely different purposes which show in their designs. Just to avoid new kids to pick that ball up, let's be clear Carlos amigo :

The only time these ships faced each other for a contract was in Oz. But the one proposed by DCNS was an extrapolation of the basic Mistral design, not the same by a lot : 3, 000 tons more displacement for instance which still left it short of Navantia's design by as much?

The Juan Carlos class is a small carrier affair although labelled as a LHD whereas the Mistral is a mix LHA/LHD/LPH with a size that of the latest ( Iwo Jima class were a bit smaller.

The Mistral cannot launch STOVL aircrafts. On standard operational metrics, it carries half as many troops, half as many vehicles and landing boats ( 4 larger CTM x 12 older LCM ) have half the capacity.

The JC / Canberra is then bigger and consequently pricier : unit price 1.3B US $ to 529 M US $ for Mistral contrary to what your pun let guess.
If a nation has no STOVL jets, past Harriers or upcoming F-35 best fitted, it may squarely not be the proper warship.

The Mistral can however provide medical treatment to all the troops it deploys ( complete hospital on board ) and serve as command hub to a force much bigger than what it carries ( 150 stations SENIT / NTDS command center ) and has self defense terminal layers that the Canberra lacks.

Apart from pushing national pride ( understandable, what the above means for Indonesia is :
If it wants to control the South Pacific to Southern Indian Ocean region against everyone else, it should opt for two Juan Carlos types at the correct premium but …
If it wants to secure means of intervention on all its islands and close-by neighbours and act in coalition in a bigger crisis, Mistral is the reasonably priced alternative.

Avoiding errors induced by jocular small talk was my intent here.
Have a great day all, Tay.

 

[pr1v4t33r]

Le KRI Rigel

Le sistership du KRI Rigel

.

 

[Nike]

LOL You wish!


Apart from pushing national pride ( understandable, what the above means for Indonesia is :
If it wants to control the South Pacific to Southern Indian Ocean region against everyone else, it should opt for two Juan Carlos types at the correct premium but …
If it wants to secure means of intervention on all its islands and close-by neighbours and act in coalition in a bigger crisis, Mistral is the reasonably priced alternative.

Avoiding errors induced by jocular small talk was my intent here.
Have a great day all, Tay.

So many thanks for the explanation

That's bolded part, this clearly what Indonesian Navy is currently trying to do. We want some capital ships who can boost our Marines Corps power projection capability by increasing our rapid deployment and insertion capability within our sphere of influence means within our region only (Indonesian EEZ and ASEAN).

And i am quite agree for the Carlosa, the Russian Mistral is heavily modified to suit their needs and that's including the capability to operating in Subarctic conditions and other specific requirements.

But personnaly i think, Indonesia needed a flat top ships in the line of Mistral rather than in the line of Juan Carlos

 

[Taygibay]

YVW Mado.

That bolded part, this clearly is what Indonesian Navy is currently trying to do. We want some capital ships who can boost our Marines Corps power projection capability by increasing our rapid deployment and insertion capability within our sphere of influence means within our region only (Indonesian EEZ and ASEAN).

I think so too and on the political influence part of a wider regional role, the hospital part I outlined would be a major advantage.
Mistrals were meant to have a secondary function as emergency relief ships to answer humanitarian crisis.
I think your biggest neighbor knows this since it floated hospital ships recently?
In an environment with lots of feet wet ( over the water ) territory known for severe weather and geologic upheavals,
the double ( military - humanitarian ) role gets a third side to it as a geo-political tool.

Good day milady and all, Tay.

 

[pr1v4t33r]

I think so too and on the political influence part of a wider regional role, the hospital part I outlined would be a major advantage. Mistrals were meant to have a secondary function as emergency relief ships to answer humanitarian crisis. I think your biggest neighbor knows this since it floated hospital ships recently? In an environment with lots of feet wet ( over the water ) territory known for severe weather and geologic upheavals, the double ( military - humanitarian ) role gets a third side to it as a geo-political tool.
Good day milady and all, Tay.

Continuing the discussion of multi role vessel that can handle emergency relief, we currently already have 5 LPD that can be deployed around archipelago to answer such emergency situation.

KRI Dr Soeharso (1 unit)

KRI Makassar Class (2 units)

KRI Banjarmasin Class (2 units)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And what do you think about Karel Doorman Joint Support Ship, compared to mistrals?

.
.

 

[Taygibay]

Oh! Agreed @pr1v4t33r

I was answering a contextual hypothetical scenario there. Those ships are adequate to your needs.

The sizes are again different in any case. Makassar class are about 40% the size of Mistral or -30%
that of Juan Carlos.
The ex-Tanjung Dalpele is a little over half the size but since it was refitted as Dr Soeharso in 2007,
it has no fighting capacity.
This again correlates to need. A Mistral could do the job of a Makassar and a half plus that of the 990.
But for a nation with so many islands as yours, it matters that if the trade took place, you'd save on
sailors but end up with only 2 ships. So that …
If ( and I think it stands to reason that you do ) you suddenly need at any time to be in 4 places at once,
4 ships do the job whereas 2 larger or better ones do half of it only.
( By analogy, a cricket team made of 6 legendary players would be incredible but at the same time …
5 men short to the field and job? )

This fits why I answered Carlosa : requirements vary and good procurement is finding the best tool for you!

Buying a Ferrai is tops as cars go but you can't make food with it.
If you bring one back when tasked to buy a blender, your wife may appreciate your taste
but will likely have doubts on your intelligence?

The same goes for military stuff, Tay.

 

[pr1v4t33r]

@Taygibay, thanks for the comment. I know that many have wish that Indonesian Navy will someday get such giant ship such as San Antonio, Juan Carlos or mistrals. But even the less pricey mistrals with price tag around $529M will be rather difficult to obtain, let alone San Antonio. Budget constraint had forced us again and again to make a wise decision on every procurement. We got our 4 LPDs for just $150M. Now thats a bargain.

Aside from that, i'm intrigue with Karel Doorman Joint Support Ship. Visual wise, our KRI Banjarmasin LPD class have a lot of design similarity. With a length more than 200m compare to 125m, this can be the next evolution of Indonesian LPD, if we can get the transfer of technology.

.

 

[Carlosa]

LOL You wish!

More seriously, this is a bad comparison as both ship types have entirely different purposes which show in their designs. Just to avoid new kids to pick that ball up, let's be clear Carlos amigo :

The only time these ships faced each other for a contract was in Oz. But the one proposed by DCNS was an extrapolation of the basic Mistral design, not the same by a lot : 3, 000 tons more displacement for instance which still left it short of Navantia's design by as much?

The Juan Carlos class is a small carrier affair although labelled as a LHD whereas the Mistral is a mix LHA/LHD/LPH with a size that of the latest ( Iwo Jima class were a bit smaller.

The Mistral cannot launch STOVL aircrafts. On standard operational metrics, it carries half as many troops, half as many vehicles and landing boats ( 4 larger CTM x 12 older LCM ) have half the capacity.

The JC / Canberra is then bigger and consequently pricier : unit price 1.3B US $ to 529 M US $ for Mistral contrary to what your pun let guess.
If a nation has no STOVL jets, past Harriers or upcoming F-35 best fitted, it may squarely not be the proper warship.

The Mistral can however provide medical treatment to all the troops it deploys ( complete hospital on board ) and serve as command hub to a force much bigger than what it carries ( 150 stations SENIT / NTDS command center ) and has self defense terminal layers that the Canberra lacks.

Apart from pushing national pride ( understandable, what the above means for Indonesia is :
If it wants to control the South Pacific to Southern Indian Ocean region against everyone else, it should opt for two Juan Carlos types at the correct premium but …
If it wants to secure means of intervention on all its islands and close-by neighbours and act in coalition in a bigger crisis, Mistral is the reasonably priced alternative.

Avoiding errors induced by jocular small talk was my intent here.
Have a great day all, Tay.

Just a few quick points amigo, the price negotiated with Australia was higher as a result of the ship being fitted in Australia and for specific customization required by them, if the ship in standard configuration is fully made in Spain, the price would be far lower.
Australia paid a significant premium by having a significant share of the work made in Australia.

Furthermore, there were cost overruns as a consequence of the Australian shipyard making a number of mistakes within their share of the work that created a delay of almost 1 year by having to fix / rectify much of their work, all of that unrelated to Spain and actually quite typical of how they work there (that's why they've been talking about getting their new subs made in Japan, they are not happy with that shipyard, they have a history of delays and cost overruns).

For a similar ship requirement, the Spanish shipyard has no problem at all competing with French shipyards in price, so if Indonesia were to formulate a requirement for a particular ship, Spain can surely offer a competitive bid, the Spanish shipyard can typically produce at a lower cost than French shipyards actually.

I don't think it makes much sense to say that the price of Mistral is $529 million without specifying the contract requirements. First of all, the price is for a particular requirement, contract conditions, work share agreement, etc, etc and I'm pretty sure that Indonesia's requirements are different than Australia, Turkey or Spain.

If we are going to use the Russian contract as a reference, Russia paid 720 million euros for the first ship and 650 million euros for the second ship and I'm talking euros, not dollars. Those are 2010 prices by the way, it would be significantly higher for 2015 prices.

The Juan Carlos can easily be modified to not have the sky ramp and not operate STOVL aircraft, it can just be customized to what Indonesia needs, that's not an issue at all, it depends on customer needs. I'd like to point out that the Australian requirement did not include operating STOVL aircrafts, the ship was never the less ordered with the sky ramp just because of not having to pay an extra cost to redesign that part of the ship. It tuns out that it was a lucky decision since now Australia is planning to operate the ships with F-35s.

The Juan Carlos also have quite a sophisticated on board hospital (although smaller than the one in Mistral) by the way and is obviously also set up to work as a command ship of a naval task force.

And lastly, my statement was intended more as a passing joke than anything else man, so lets not get too serious.

 

[Nike]

last flight of Hawk Mk.53

taken from ARC