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India’s needs helped power Russian military innovation

with all due respect
I will not appreciate indian strategic thinking yet

Nor do I expect you to. I don't appreciate it (in the sense you have used the word apparently here) either. But the sense I used the word was, a parlance wherein we refer to analysing something, an example: My asking you to write an 'appreciation' of Pakistan's Role in Afghanistan, will not mean to laud the role but as a way of critically analysing the whole topic.

Hence, when I used the word appreciate for Indian Strategic Thinking, I meant for you to analyse it.


because India has never been in the positions Pakistan survived
you see for Pakistan all the issue of backward economy rises due to economic sanctions of 90s(other factors did not contribute much)

A debatable point. One can argue that the reason for your nation's economic difficulties can be rooted in the absence of stable and strong governance. You have, after all, been ruled for majority of the time by a Military Dictatorship, which has fundamentally consolidated it's own position in the Pakistani Society and allowed (and maybe enabled) the initial weakening and subsequently decay of a sustained and continuos policy initiative aimed more at building a nation state than trying to achieve a military capability to seek a confrontation with India over Kashmir.

If you were to do an analysis of the histories of India and Pakistan, their priorities in the post-independence era, you will be able to appreciate the fact that when the Army in Pakistan worked successively to cement its grip over the power in Pakistan, it was invariably by raising an Indian bogey and by subordinating the National Interests to Security Interests. Conceded that security interests are critical, however, at no time do we find any time critical for Pakistani diversion of priorities to defence than to nation building. What you lacked, was the mature leadership and guidance in form of MA Jinnah to consolidate the nation for a few more years. That, perhaps, would have allowed for strong civil institutions to take roots in the Pakistani Society, thereby enabling a vibrant democracy which we see in India.

Anyways, that is my perspective of your policies. Am sure you can look at the merits or lack thereof in the above statement.

Coming back, you must also realise that 90s was the decade wherein the traditional Indian ally in form of USSR, had lost the cold war and the Pakistani ally US was supreme. India, at the least, was still looked at with suspicion and Pakistan was still a loyal friend and ally, increasingly expressed by US backing of Pakistan's policy on Kashmir, and this was also the era when Pakistan actually weaponised its nuclear program.

Indian economy was near bankrupt and drastic fiscal measures were undertaken. If you were to research the Indian economic situation at time, it was precarious at best. An example can be taken of defence spending where only revenue expenditure was being catered to and capital outlay was down to zero for the duration. That is one of the pre-eminent reason why, in the subsequent Kargil war, the Indian response was slow and calibrated. Bluntly speaking, our economic condition of the preceding decade had left even the Indian Army in a difficult and pre-carious position. The jingoism and the ribbings from members aside, we were in a difficult position at the start of the conflict, with even the US policy against us. Perhaps, this vulnerability of the Indian Economy allowed for application of prudent economic and also security policy in Kargil which allowed for the situation to play out as it did and enabled India to begin a period of turning around US' view of India.

Both the nations have faced difficulties. The difference has been in the response of each.

India did not had to fight an existing super power or been on wrong terms with one
we did both (fought soviets and tangled with Americans)

You had and have a national interest in maintaining a so called strategic 'depth' by controlling Afghanistan. It was your own interest that drove you to a policy which has resulted in a mess for you. From an unstable western neighbour to home grown and supported terrorists, the security challenges have multiplied as a consequence of your own policies. You were already involved in Afghanistan before even the US intervened.

i dont see why people mostly pakistanis call Army paid soldiers
all Pakistani Army ever did was directly in Pakistani interest including war with USSr

At the same time consolidating itself as the sole repertoire of National Pride and Unity. I hope you realise that under the successive military rule, the civil establishment was never allowed to mature into an effective machinery for governance?

but not deviating the thread you have to realize Russian ambitions
they want to create a strong Eurasian bloc and their biggest ally is not India but China

This is something which we had slightly discussed and I had told will be hypothesising about.

You must realise something very clearly of Russia. The Russian policy regarding Islamic Nations is to have a central authority preferably friendly to them to control the nations. Those which can not be controlled, must be de-stabilised. The reason is their restive Central Republic of Chechnya and adjoining regions.

Similarly, Russia needs China for its market and for finance. In addition, China acts as an important counter-balance to US. But also realise that Russia itself sees China as a long term threat, especially for its territories in East, notwithstanding the agreement they have.

You may want to read up about the transient nature of Sino-Pak boundary settlement of 1963 to get a gist of the temporary nature of Chinese agreements. When China can unilaterally withdraw from treaties signed centuries back recognising Tibet as an autonomous and separate kingdom in 'special relationship' with them, then what prevents it from a similar position few decades from now with Russia?

Russia is quite pragmatic and alert to this.

On Pakistan, Russia will gain more through Iran. They have more to gain by facilitating subversion in Baluchistan (through Iran, which has aims of creation of buffer, support of Shias and also of breaking Pakistan as an ally of GCC, something coming to fore in post-Yemen intervention period) and using it as a leverage over Pakistan than any other route involving direct dealings with Pakistan (my opinion only) while at the same time ensuring adequate concerns over CPEC thereby allowing an oil market for itself in form of servicing the Chinese economy thereby securing its own financial interests. I am speculating, may be way wrong here.


in the end all i want to say is interesting changes are ahead and nothing is predictable who would have predicted that a hardcore US ally overnight will sit in Russian lap .. and US is master of these tricks...... now a misadventure with china including US can change things and things are cooking that way

I do not subscribe to the fact that Pakistan is in Russian zone yet. You have to wait and see.

Lets do that, watch how things unfold. But strictly analysing from my view point, you are off.

Thanks

Hi there is another dimension to it that is Russian own interest to use warm waters thru Pakistan .At the moment Both India and Russia has recognized that they can do business with others arch rivals days of 70s and 80s have passed each country is looking for it self ,China and Russia are tied up with economics and Russians needs Chinese similarly Chinese need Russians to divert US attention also China needs Pakistan for India and Russia needs Pak for Trade routes ,those are saying SU35 or any other jet is not coming are missing one important point that is PAF itself ,PAF is still waiting for IAF move for MRCA and local assemblies once it is done we all will see where JEts will be coming

May I suggest you think on an unstable CPEC, and how it benefits Iran and Russia?
 
I do not subscribe to the fact that Pakistan is in Russian zone yet
certainly
i started my posts in this thread by quoting this
You may want to read up about the transient nature of Sino-Pak boundary settlement of 1963 to get a gist of the temporary nature of Chinese agreements. When China can unilaterally withdraw from treaties signed centuries back recognising Tibet as an autonomous and separate kingdom in 'special relationship' with them, then what prevents it from a similar position few decades from now with Russia?
since i have not studied sino-russian border issues i wont comment on this
I do know that they almost fought a war over some river island dispute though
On Pakistan, Russia will gain more through Iran. They have more to gain by facilitating subversion in Baluchistan (through Iran, which has aims of creation of buffer, support of Shias and also of breaking Pakistan as an ally of GCC, something coming to fore in post-Yemen intervention period) and using it as a leverage over Pakistan than any other route involving direct dealings with Pakistan (my opinion only) while at the same time ensuring adequate concerns over CPEC thereby allowing an oil market for itself in form of servicing the Chinese economy thereby securing its own financial interests. I am speculating, may be way wrong here.
as a matter of fact Russia has to gain from both these routes both strategically and economically
you have to realize that CPEC basically was never intended for russia or central Asia
they all are just a bonus
 
as a matter of fact Russia has to gain from both these routes both strategically and economically
you have to realize that CPEC basically was never intended for russia or central Asia
they all are just a bonus

I agree. But the relative dividends are greater through Iran than through Pakistan.

At the end of the day, it is all about economics and own security and markets.
 
Secondly Again provide the source of us getting Alms from China if you cant I will have you reported to MODS for trolling and disrespecting.
I couldn't care less. But here's the source of misuse of US Aid
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ald-neumann-ex-envoy/articleshow/39579518.cms
Endorsed by Ronald Neumann Ambasador to Afghanistan

There's a famous Carnegie study on Who benefits from US Aid to Pak.

BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8254360.stm

some more
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2009/09/pakistan_diverted_us_aid_to_nu.php

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/05/16/the-double-game

*************************************************
China
http://www.sabahnews.net/provision-of-military-aid-to-pakistan-to-be-continued-china/

But,

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-wagner/message-to-pakistan_b_863518.html

Your own blogs and forums.
http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthre...-Army-chief-succeeded-in-begging-for-more-aid

Some more of the changing scenario.
http://www.firstpost.com/world/us-s...ney-for-military-aid-to-pakistan-2668808.html

Happy reading

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/india’s-...litary-innovation.444905/page-2#ixzz4HqfoUS3C
 
And how India returns the favour ? By ordering goods from US and leaving Russia in these troubled times ?
we paid them handsomely for those innovation needs....we dont beg things for free....thats why once paid... we are free to chose anything next time..
 
I agree. But the relative dividends are greater through Iran than through Pakistan
we also should not forget that using Chaubahr one has to cross Pakistani waters
now for Russia and western stans like Turkmenistan its true
but krgyzystan, tajikistan, uzbekistan it is Gawadar
but yes as you said , in the end its all about economics, own security and markets
nice discussion I always avoided indians thought all of them are trolls but parikrama
looks like i got a new indian debate buddy :welcome:
 
we paid them handsomely for those innovation needs....we dont beg things for free....thats why once paid... we are free to chose anything next time..
LOL No body begs. Stop with this typical desi attitude

Blogs are useless. Secondly, If it makes you happy
Here you are: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...t-of-US-economic-aid/articleshow/48093123.cms
 
May I suggest you think on an unstable CPEC, and how it benefits Iran and Russia?
There are no possibilites for unstable CPEC had it being Pak own project it would have been some thing else ,this is simply Chinese own survival project
 
LOL No body begs. Stop with this typical desi attitude


Blogs are useless. Secondly, If it makes you happy
Here you are: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...t-of-US-economic-aid/articleshow/48093123.cms
Known fact. Point being we don't divert aid & no one thinks of Uncle Sam as the big bogey after taking billions of their tax payer money.

Look at our human capital in US. Look at their influence and goodwill.

If it makes you sad, read-on
http://dunyanews.tv/en/Pakistan/344874-US-Congress-committee-recommends-to-end-Pakistan-a
 
Known fact. Point being we don't divert aid & no one thinks of Uncle Sam as the big bogey after taking billions of their tax payer money.

Look at our human capital in US. Look at their influence and goodwill.

If it makes you sad, read-on
http://dunyanews.tv/en/Pakistan/344874-US-Congress-committee-recommends-to-end-Pakistan-a
That still does not negate the reality that you have been the largest recipent of US AID program. It's all ypur presstitute media campaign to show us as such. obsessed people
 
Considering that you are 1/6th our population. That we are a gargantuan nation. The fact that our aid received is only slightly more than you should be a matter of shame to you.

That today, we reject any aid..while you still keep your hands open to accept it.
But you did receive it, right ? Secondly, You yourself said that your 6 times our size hence your military budget is more than our economy. So why would you now accept aid
 
There are no possibilites for unstable CPEC had it being Pak own project it would have been some thing else ,this is simply Chinese own survival project

Thanks for your opinion.

A contrarian view if I may, the CARs get the assurance of Russian support and presence in Iran if they use Chabahar. Also, it allows for more dependence of Chinese on Russian Oil, something that Russia needs as it grapples with low oil prices and Western Sanctions while enabling Russia to play West against China in the larger perspective.
 
Thanks for your opinion.

A contrarian view if I may, the CARs get the assurance of Russian support and presence in Iran if they use Chabahar. Also, it allows for more dependence of Chinese on Russian Oil, something that Russia needs as it grapples with low oil prices and Western Sanctions while enabling Russia to play West against China in the larger perspective.
There is a bigger strategic shift which is above all this ,Iran will be dark horse in all this either side it can go ,Russia /China /Turkey all have strategic interest in Syria and recent Turkeys shift to Russia is another indication to it ,regarding Pak importance to Russia it is already investing heavily in Pakistan thru buying of assets e.g Mobilink/Warid over 50 Mil customers is part of Vimpel telecom (Russia) also if i am correct Russians are interested to buy a commercial bank in coming days .Also Inter state gas company of Pakistan is very much closely collaborating with Russian gas companies ,so there is going to be big strategic block
 
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