India's LCA unlikely to use Kaveri engine until late next decade

[SBD-3]

By Siva Govindasamy

India's Tejas light combat aircraft could use a foreign powerplant until the middle of the next decade, due to ongoing problems with the development of an indigenous engine. The LCA is scheduled to enter service with the Indian air force in 2011,

The state-owned Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) has spent Rp20 billion ($411 million) developing the indigenous Kaveri engine since 1989, but the powerplant is still overweight and does not have the 21,000-22,500lb of thrust (93-100kN) that its customer requires.

The difficulties led to the Aeronautical Development Agency, which is developing the Tejas, ordering General Electric F404-IN20 engines last year to power the aircraft. These will ensure that the fighter, which has also been plagued by other delays, achieves initial operational capability by the end of next year and enters service in 2011.


© Aeronautical Development Agency

Now, the agency is likely to place an order for GE F414 engines this year to power another 20 fighters, says M Natarajan, secretary of India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), which oversees the ADA. "The first two LCA squadrons, consisting of 20 jets each, will be fitted with General Electric engines. The subsequent squadrons could fly with an upgraded version of [the] Kaveri engine," he says.

The ADA is working with the GTRE and the air force to improve the Kaveri. Natarajan reiterates that the programme will not be scrapped. "A team of air force engineers is working with GTRE and ADA in addressing the issues. As an ongoing project, the air force will be involved at the point of integrating the upgraded version of the engine with the aircraft," he adds.

The GTRE is also likely to work with French engine manufacturer Snecma on the Kaveri, although the two sides have yet to reach an agreement for joint development and testing, and for the transfer of technology and manufacturing. "Discussions with Snecma have been going on for two years," says Natarajan. "Development and flight-testing of the new engine will take at least five to six years."

Separately, a higher-thrust version of the Kaveri will also power India's proposed medium combat aircraft development. The ADA is working with the air force to develop the model, which it hopes will eventually replace Dassault Mirage fighters and Sepecat Jaguar strike aircraft. It will also supplement the service's Sukhoi Su-30MKIs, Tejas and new medium multirole combat aircraft that India will order in the next few years.

 

[Red Dwarf]

20 years on an engine!!!. Can't they do reverse engineering ?.

 

[grey boy 2]

Here you go;

India's LCA unlikely to use Kaveri engine until late next decade

India's LCA unlikely to use Kaveri engine until late next decade
By Siva Govindasamy

India's Tejas light combat aircraft could use a foreign powerplant until the middle of the next decade, due to ongoing problems with the development of an indigenous engine. The LCA is scheduled to enter service with the Indian air force in 2011,

 

[sudhir007]

China is the master in copy and also has the reverse engineering. Better infrastructure then India does not make a good engine. There is few country in the world who has the ability to make such a complex system which is the part of any F/A. you can’t say kaveri is failure it is underpowered it goes successful fight test last time in Russia.

check the below link :-
Kaveri jet engine finally poised for first flight

 

[grey boy 2]

China is the master in copy and also has the reverse engineering. Better infrastructure then India does not make a good engine. There is few country in the world who has the ability to make such a complex system which is the part of any F/A. you can’t say kaveri is failure it is underpowered it goes successful fight test last time in Russia.

check the below link :-
Kaveri jet engine finally poised for first flight

Please don't save your own face by draging China into the discussing,

Yes, we copy and improved than the original one, India can't even

reverse engineer a decent assault rifle, period.

 

[gogbot]

Please don't save your own face by draging China into the discussing,

Yes, we copy and improved than the original one, India can't even

reverse engineer a decent assault rifle, period.

we have actually made staple copies of the FN FAL and Ak-47.
Sadly we haven't attempted that on a larger scale.
Weather this is good or bad can only be determined in retrospect.

We all have our own achievements.

Come now, India has shown its engineering and technical skills remarkably, in its space endeavors.

India's defense development has suffered due to poor institutional governance.

This practically means, Internal politics within the defense establishment is the problem with many of India's endavours.

For example:
Normally in Domestic procurement the Congress votes on bill for an army, air force or Navy request.
once granted the branch in question takes money and then invests it in the development of the weapon.
Co-currently so as to ensure continued support from various ministers, Incentives are offered such as creating jobs in their corresponding districts, to produce said weapons systems.
and even unofficial bribes.
When the selected R&D groups , produces results the Military having already invested Money into the project buys the system and inducts it. Given that it meets all the requirements or at the very least comes close.

In India however things were different.
The Bill is put in front of congress and voted on.
Once passed. said project is started completely independently by the Ministry of defense in the DRDO.
The DRDO then uses its own budget and money which it is grated separately by the government, for R&D. none of the associated Military branches have to Commits their annual budget to any project.
Nor do any Politicians not directly linked to Finance have any say in development. This was originally planned as a means to curb corruption in defense development. By setting up an independent agency to Handle everything separately, as far as development is concerned. This meant less Internal politics in the Initial stages of development and thus things get done faster.
It however did not work. When a finished or in development product was displayed the Military, which by no means was invested in anything simply made a list of a ever changing requirements, that need to be fulfilled, and only chose this option if it were best option for them, no compromises would be made. On top of that they had a powerful Arms import lobby that tries everything it can to promote foreign alternatives. on the Political side, ministers who voted or haven't voted in favor of the original plan to initiate development have a change of heart since they have no incentive's to support the project. Last minute talks and back door deals are the only things that kept many of India's early ventures alive. but that to caused untold delays and constants to many projects.
The projects faith eventually falls to Politicians.


I may have taken liberties, generalizations and Simplifications in explaining How India miserably manages its weapons development.

But i tell you this not as an excuse but so, you may understand that It is not that India lacks the capability or the technical prowess to make decent weapons systems but the Underlying government systems is what has hindered its efforts thus far.

We may have failed in our attempt's but not in the way you believe we did. The underlying problems were more political than technical.
The technical problems were merely a symptoms of the real problems
which were a result of poor planning and that in in turn a result of Internal politics.

However with politicians in India Now realizing to some extent what needs to be done. Steps have been made to correct the problems
and the Lattest DFP is hopefully just a sign of things to come.


To put all this in Lamens terms.

It is not that India lacked the capability to Walk the talk, so to speak.
but the problem arose that India had failed to realize it was making its attempts to walk on Slippery ice, which has caused it to fall many times, yet India got and tried again.
And either by sheer luck, skill or Guidance it has somehow managed to reach the edge the ice, where it can finally stand and walk.

 

[bigmoneymaker]

by the time of twenty years later, many things will change, if the research cycle is so long, what will happen to your future in time progress, as this one is delayed significantly???

 

[gogbot]

by the time of twenty years later, many things will change, if the research cycle is so long, what will happen to your future in time progress, as this one is delayed significantly???

How long do you think development cycles normally are.
the average development cycle lasts 10 years for most aircraft.

THE French Rafaela took 15 years.

The Euro fighter took a little over 12 years.

Even the J-10 took 18 years of R&D before it took flight. and that to happened without engine.

In contrast India's LCA program is truthfully been In R&D for a little under 20 years as phase one of the Project began in 1991.

and one of the reasons for the delays is IAF's ever changing requirements for the aircraft.

Despite what critics may have you believe the LCA has remained a modern aircraft through its development. Just the same way all the other planes developed have new technologies are simply incorporated during the design phase.

 

[unicorn148]

yes it took more time for us because we had to start from the basics and from next time it will help us in next fighter program