Indian submarine, cargo ship collide off Pakistan

[ejaz007]

It would be better if one uses his brains before responding. What I had stated was that technically the submarine was in Pakistani waters since it was within 200 nm EEZ. If it had entered beyond 12 nm distance than there was every reason to warn it. Attacking is last option.
A lot of countries 200 nm sea-lanes overlap with each other and a lot of countries are at dispute because of this. Off course at some places Indian and Pakistani 200 nm EEZ overlap.
If the accident happened 140 nm from Pakistan’s shore than care to explain how a submarine equipped with all the sophisticated equipment collided with a cargo ship in the middle of the sea and that too at periscope depth level.

 

[KENT]

It would be better if one uses his brains before responding.

It would be way better if one uses his brain in more precisely.

What I had stated was that technically the submarine was in Pakistani waters since it was within 200 nm EEZ. If it had entered beyond 12 nm distance than there was every reason to warn it. Attacking is last option.
A lot of countries 200 nm sea-lanes overlap with each other and a lot of countries are at dispute because of this. Off course at some places Indian and Pakistani 200 nm EEZ overlap.
If the accident happened 140 nm from Pakistan’s shore than care to explain how a submarine equipped with all the sophisticated equipment collided with a cargo ship in the middle of the sea and that too at periscope depth level.

Prior to suggesting others to user their brain, you should take a look at your own state of comprehension. I think you might quoting distance of 140 nm from my previous post. If you had read it properly I described incident took place 140nm from Indian coast means somewhere in Surashtra region of india, but god know how did those sentence translate to your mindset of having 140nm from Pakistan.

Regarding Submarine Sophistication in terms of technology then only submarine is subject to some degree of vulnerability. This is not the first occasion the submarine not meet with the accident. Submarines possess by superpower like US and Russia also meet with devastating accident in spite way superior in terms of technology as compared to their Indian counterparts.

 

[Neo]

The submarine was apparently traveling at perisope depth when it rammed into merchant vessel, the damaged was limited to submarine’s fin, then only submarine managed to get back to Mumbai without any assistance and hence damaged wasn’t as serious as highlighted above.

Kent,

Can you confirm that the sub was not 'towed' as claimed by the article but made it on her own?
Any news on the damage?

 

[KENT]

Kent,

Can you confirm that the sub was not 'towed' as claimed by the article but made it on her own?
Any news on the damage?

Neo sub wasn't towed on her way back to Mumbai shipyard, in fact it somehow managed to made her way towards Mumbai on her own without any kind of the assistance, this clearly reflect that damage to the submarine was very minor one. According to some creadible sources Submarine suffered some slight damaged to conning tower area, some speculation is that indigenously developed hydro-acoustal sonar, USHUS malfuntioned causing the accident. still I have posting this below article from frontierindia for some details clarifcation


UWritten on January 10, 2008 – 8:43 pm | by P. Chacko Joseph | INS Sindhughosh is reported have to collided with a merchant ship damaging some part of conning tower. INS Sindhughosh was taking part in Fleet Level war games and was at periscope level. While the speculation is that the indigenously developed sonar “USHUS” malfunctioned, it could be yet another attack on indigenous equipment as per the current trend. At periscope level, a sonar is definitely switched on to detect range and bearing of other objects around. So when the sonar operator yells out a particular bearing of an object, the periscope operator confirms back the deviation or accuracy. Normally Sonar accuracy always differs from the actual location of the object by some degrees and distance. Its perfectly normal situation. Baring periscope, the sensors of the submarine should be safe as they are located on fins and on the bottom part of the submarine hull.

First of all the crew of INS Sindhughosh had a miraculous escape as the accident was caused at surface level. The reports of structural damage is a cause of concern. Normally the submarine has two hulls. But any damage to structure means checking the entire review of the whole structure. Even if one steel bar has a weakness, the submarine will face adverse conditions at 250 meters below sea level.

The second ramification is the absence of a Deep Sea Rescue Vehicle (DSRV). The Canadian contract for a DSRV is under investigation of corruption. Indian Navy has not purchased another one. It is a wake up call. The status of India-U.S. agreement for Submarine rescue is not yet clear.

The third ramification is the standard operation procedure (SOP) followed for the same. There was another incident in the past when and Indian Navy Foxtrot submarine surfaced below INS Rana causing INS Rana to operate without one propeller for years to come.

The fourth ramification will be the loss of a experienced captain. In the last accident the Foxtrot captain’s further service was curtailed.

Fifth ramification is that INS Sindhughosh was equipped with Klub Missiles for both ant-ship and anti-land roles. It will create an operational void. The brownie point is that Klub Missiles are not anyway not able to find their target when launched and the issue is not rectified.

Sixth and the most important ramification is the Submarine arm of Indian Navy is shrinking at alarming rate. Indian Navy will have one submarine less for another few years to come

 

[Neo]

Thanks, I just read the report in ToI:

Navy submarine collides with cargo ship off Diu​

11 Jan 2008, TNN

NEW DELHI: The collision of an Indian attack submarine, INS Sindhugosh, with a large foreign-owned cargo ship in the Arabian Sea last Monday could have meant a cold watery grave for the 53 sailors on board the underwater vessel.

If a submarine becomes disabled deep under water, or sinks to the bottom, the Indian navy simply does not have adequate submarine rescue facilities to help trapped sailors.

The long-pending project to procure two deep-submergence rescue vessels (DSRVs), which was cleared by the Cabinet Committee on Security in November 2002, is still to fructify.

Even the interim measure worked out through the 1997 contract with US Navy for its "global submarine rescue fly-away kit" service, for which India made an initial payment of $734,443, is still not fully operational.

Fortunately, all sailors aboard the 2,500-tonne INS Sindhugosh are safe and sound. The 41,880-tonne merchant vessel Leeds Castle, only gave a glancing blow to the submarine, which was at "periscope depth" at around 15-20 feet, off the Diu coast at around 1.30 pm on January 7.

"The submarine was around 140 nautical miles north-west of Mumbai for a fleet-level exercise with other warships. It was probably surfacing when the merchant vessel passed over it," said an officer.

"With the submarine returning to Mumbai early on Wednesday under its own propulsion and power, a board of inquiry has been ordered into the accident. The masts (periscope, radar and communication antennae) and the bridge have been damaged but its hull or water-tight integrity remained unaffected," he added.

Be that as it may, the mishap of the Russian-origin INS Sindhugosh is a major embarrassment for the Navy. The last major accident of a warship was the sinking of the 450-tonne missile corvette, INS Prahar, near the Goa coast after a collision with merchant vessel MV Rajiv Gandhi in April 2006.

While it's true that submarine operations on the western coast are dicey because of heavy shipping congestion
as well as relatively shallow waters compared to the eastern seaboard, the latest incident points to a serious error of judgment. INS Sindhugosh, commanded by commander Narendra Kumar at present, was the first of the 10 Kilo-class submarines to be inducted in 1986.

It underwent a major modernisation upgrade in Russia in 2005, which included equipping it with lethal Klub-S cruise missiles, apart from new sonars, electronic warfare systems and automated integrated weapon control systems.

Consequently, it's among the only five of the existing 16 diesel-electric submarines in India's underwater combat fleet to be armed with cruise missiles. Even as the Navy plans to enhance its underwater arm, with the slated induction of six submarines between 2012 and 2017 under the gigantic Rs 18,798-crore Scorpene project, it continues to have primitive rescue facilities.

That this can prove lethal for disabled vessels trapped deep under the sea was brought home by the accident of Russian nuclear submarine Kursk in the Barents Sea in August 2000, which led to the slow death of the 118 sailors on board.

Navy submarine collides with cargo ship off Diu-India-The Times of India

 

[Neo]

Human error?
An report I found on the net is accusing Cmdr Narendra Kumar of misjudgement or bad call:

Même s’il est vrai que les opérations sous-marines sur la côte Ouest de l’Inde sont rendues difficiles par l’intense navigation commerciale et par des eaux relativement peu profondes en comparaison de la côte Est, ce dernier incident semble indiquer une sérieuse erreur de jugement. L’INS Sindhugosh, commandé actuellement par le commander Narendra Kumar, a été le premier des sous-marins de la classe Kilo mis en service en 1986.

Le portail des sous-marins > Un sous-marin Indien entre en collision avec un cargo au large du Pakistan

 

[TOPGUN]

Always try to cover up there mistakes no offence its just funny as always always doing dumb things hahahaha lol unreal !!!!!!!! anyhow stering lessons are free of charge from PAK Navy!!!!

 

[MastanKhan]

Kent,

How are you doing this morning? Please take the post as it is---it may 70 miles or whatever---I just posted a news---look back at your first reply----seems like if the sub is at periscope depth---the behaviour of the crew was casual---that is what came out of your post---

It really is surprising---how could something like this happen---a cargo ship's props and engines would be making so much noise travelling at their max cruise speed----the sub would have known about the location of the cargo ship a long time before it arrived at that location----there maybe another scenario---couple of different explanations---the submarine might have been doing a high speed surfacing---that is the only time when a sub is deaf and blind---it happened to a U S sub in the pacific---rammed right into a japanese touring boat----right in the middle of the open pacific ocean on a bright sunny day---there is another scenario which can come close to what happened here----scenario looks similiar---shallow waters---cargo ship travelling at max speed in open sea---a sub right underneath it----here is a cut and paste of a similiar accident---

Now do understrand that pakistani boys are going to have some fun with you for a few days---we can't just let it pass by---just swallow the pride and take t with a grain of salt.





The Virginian-Pilot January 11, 2007

Navy says speed of tanker sucked submarine up to surface
In-Depth Coverage By Jack Dorsey

NORFOLK - The submarine Newport News was submerged and leaving the Persian Gulf when a mammoth Japanese oil tanker passed overhead at a high speed, creating a sucking effect that made the sub rise and hit the ship, the Navy said Tuesday.

That is the preliminary finding of Monday's collision between the Norfolk-based submarine and the Mogamigawa, a 1,100-foot-long merchant ship displacing 300,000 tons.

Both were southbound, crossing the busy and narrow Strait of Hormuz while heading into the Arabian Sea.

"As the ship passed over the sub, it ended up sucking the submarine into it," said Lt. Cmdr. Chris Loundermon, a spokesman for Submarine Force in Norfolk.

"It is a principle called the venturi effect," he said.

The Mogamigawa, built in 2001, is a super tanker that displaces 300,000 tons of water - three times the amount of water of a modern aircraft carrier.

The Newport News, a Los Angeles-class submarine, displaces 6,900 tons of water.

 

[Awesome]

This is a lapse in our security as well.

The tin can should have been escorted out of Pakistani waters by Pak ships.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Kent,

Can you confirm that the sub was not 'towed' as claimed by the article but made it on her own?
Any news on the damage?

its conning tower fin was damaged.

Any sub can go on its own steam with that!

Nothing extraordinary really!

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

This is a lapse in our security as well.

The tin can should have been escorted out of Pakistani waters by Pak ships.

Asim,

That tin can is still lethal!

 

[ahussains]

So far real story wil not come out so easily we have to wait what acctully caused of accident this sub having CRUSE Missiles on board and very near our almost in the Pakistani boaders did any one think this ?

 

[KENT]

Always try to cover up there mistakes no offence its just funny as always always doing dumb things hahahaha lol unreal !!!!!!!!

Investigative report of probe regarding Submarines accident hasn't even arrived as yet and you came to know that IN is trying to cover up the mistakes. Man you should be a supernatural telepathy.

anyhow stering lessons are free of charge from PAK Navy!!!!

offcourse, why not? after considering the state of PN, I doubt PN should even have sterring capability.

 

[KENT]

Kent,

How are you doing this morning?

I am very fine! Thank You

Please take the post as it is---it may 70 miles or whatever---I just posted a news---look back at your first reply

See I don’t want to contest you regarding your posted news, rather I was just correcting some serious errors. My intentions weren’t prove you wrong.

----seems like if the sub is at periscope depth---the behaviour of the crew was casual---that is what came out of your post---

Man atleast let investigative report about probe come in about incident, then you should find yourself free to make any sort of assumption you want.

It really is surprising---how could something like this happen---a cargo ship's props and engines would be making so much noise travelling at their max cruise speed

Sheer speculation indeed! How did you manage to reckon the cruise speed of Merchant ship that collided with submarine.

----the sub would have known about the location of the cargo ship a long time before it arrived at that location----there maybe another scenario---couple of different explanations---the submarine might have been doing a high speed surfacing---that is the only time when a sub is deaf and blind---it happened to a U S sub in the pacific---rammed right into a japanese touring boat----right in the middle of the open pacific ocean on a bright sunny day---there is another scenario which can come close to what happened here----scenario looks similiar---shallow waters---cargo ship travelling at max speed in open sea---a sub right underneath it----here is a cut and paste of a similiar accident---

The Virginian-Pilot January 11, 2007

Navy says speed of tanker sucked submarine up to surface
In-Depth Coverage By Jack Dorsey

NORFOLK - The submarine Newport News was submerged and leaving the Persian Gulf when a mammoth Japanese oil tanker passed overhead at a high speed, creating a sucking effect that made the sub rise and hit the ship, the Navy said Tuesday.

That is the preliminary finding of Monday's collision between the Norfolk-based submarine and the Mogamigawa, a 1,100-foot-long merchant ship displacing 300,000 tons.

Both were southbound, crossing the busy and narrow Strait of Hormuz while heading into the Arabian Sea.

"As the ship passed over the sub, it ended up sucking the submarine into it," said Lt. Cmdr. Chris Loundermon, a spokesman for Submarine Force in Norfolk.

"It is a principle called the venturi effect," he said.

The Mogamigawa, built in 2001, is a super tanker that displaces 300,000 tons of water - three times the amount of water of a modern aircraft carrier.

The Newport News, a Los Angeles-class submarine, displaces 6,900 tons of water.

Above is one among many natural speculations that is being made during finding the cause of any accident. Agreed!





[/QUOTE]

Now do understrand that pakistani boys are going to have some fun with you for a few days---we can't just let it pass by---just swallow the pride and take t with a grain of salt.

Oh my goodness! I didn’t expected you would be so sentimental.

 

[KENT]

So far real story wil not come out so easily we have to wait what acctully caused of accident this sub having CRUSE Missiles on board and very near our almost in the Pakistani boaders did any one think this ?

Man, now most of the IN ship are equipped with Brahmos which has 300km range, even they can target any ship around Pakistani coast.