Indian Navy News & Discussions

[Abingdonboy]

So is CSL getting the follow on to Vikrant on order?

No news either way but I would say it is likely given that the IN is loading up on "goodies" for the IAC-2 (EMALS and now N-power) and thus they will want to offset the increased lead time for a brand new (and hughly ambitious) project like the IAC-2 with a third carrier.

Did we get any under water rescue platform?

This is an interesting one, according to the IN's CNS this is a done deal, but no details given (mostly because Burkha Dutt is an idiot):

NDTV: What about the absence of rescue vehicles?

Admiral Dhowan: The absence of the rescue vehicle has been taken care of because they have already been ordered.In the meantime to meet our current requirement...

NDTV: When do we think we will get them?

Admiral Dhowan: We'll get them now. The process is all complete, of the acquisition, now is the delivery period, which has to be taken into account and they'll be there


^interview with the CNS from last week

Addtionally the IN has covered any the operational gap as the IN has tied up with the USN to deploy a DSRV for the IN anywhere in the world within 24 hours of the request being made.

Any developments of additional Krivak?

No news. All sorts of noise was made prior to Modi's trip to Russia in December and Pipav kept being thrown into the mix but the reality was nothing to be seen.

I think this can be interprated as more evidence Indo-Russian ties are in a spiral downwards
.

Judging from the timeline of say 2028 types for the follow on ship,

This timeline is a bit too conservative. Say CSL receives the order for the follow-on class ship within a year of the IAC-1 sailing out of CSL (and into sea trails) so by around 2019, it will only take 6-7 years now to make a sister ship to IAC-1 so she could be in sea trails by as early as 2025-6 IMO. If the IN give the order for a follow-on in the next 24 months and there is little "down time" for CSL between IAC-1 and its sister ship then you can see her enter even earlier. The latter would be more optimal solution IMO because it reduces the risk of losing skilled man power and simply build upon the success of IAC-1. India needs to quit having these needless periods of inactivity on the back of successful projects, it is counter intuative to say the least.

I think the P-15B is an example that this policy/approach has been abadonded now though- the first P-15B's keel was laid whilst the P-15As were still in sea trails/being outfitted.

 

[MilSpec]

What do you guys think of a specialized K15 Sagarika 6x6 land attack VLS launch module for missile boat. @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy

 

[surya kiran]

Admiral Dhowan: We'll get them now. The process is all complete, of the acquisition, now is the delivery period, which has to be taken into account and they'll be there

It was supposed to be tested during Arihant trials. No news about that.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@PARIKRAMA @Penguin
Have a look at this https://m.facebook.com/philippinesdefense/photos/a.268163766632580.61605.268124096636547/910374222411528/?type=3&refid=17&_ft_=top_level_post_id.910374222411528:tl_objid.910374222411528:thid.268124096636547:306061129499414:69:0:1456819199:-4098610650303852108

Now does Karmorta fulfill these conditions?
I am assuming GRSE will offer Karmorta myself, they haven't said anything yet.

And how does the chances of an Indian win fare?

Budget is Philippine Peso 18 Bn
Philippine Peso/USD = 0.021
So P 18Bn ~ USD 377.48 Mn or USD 380 Mn approx

Kamorta is more or less above this figure due to cost over runs.. In some aspects it meets the requirement and in others it lags. In fact based on requirements its a bit on heavily armed side..

Read this.. a good article on this
New Frigate Bidding Candidate: Kamorta-class Variant? | rhk111's Military and Arms Page

India to Sell Warships to Vietnam, Increase Footprints in South China Sea

The NDTV article states
For the Philippines order, GRSE is competing with six foreign ship yards - Navantia, Spain, STX, France and Hyundai, Daewoo, and STX from Korea.

That means its very best competition.. We have a line of credit so we can extend that surely.. But Arming Philippine Navy will mean direct confrontation with China too.. its like saying China arms Pakistan as we are arming Philippines.. its a gamble worth it with 8 sub deal in background and south china sea as a potential conflict zone.. But with this kind of a deal, i think USA and Japan may overtly and covertly nudge Philippine government to support Indian shipyard bid.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Budget is Philippine Peso 18 Bn
Philippine Peso/USD = 0.021
So P 18Bn ~ USD 377.48 Mn or USD 380 Mn approx

Kamorta is more or less above this figure due to cost over runs.. In some aspects it meets the requirement and in others it lags. In fact based on requirements its a bit on heavily armed side..

Read this.. a good article on this
New Frigate Bidding Candidate: Kamorta-class Variant? | rhk111's Military and Arms Page

India to Sell Warships to Vietnam, Increase Footprints in South China Sea

The NDTV article states
For the Philippines order, GRSE is competing with six foreign ship yards - Navantia, Spain, STX, France and Hyundai, Daewoo, and STX from Korea.

That means its very best competition.. We have a line of credit so we can extend that surely.. But Arming Philippine Navy will mean direct confrontation with China too.. its like saying China arms Pakistan as we are arming Philippines.. its a gamble worth it with 8 sub deal in background and south china sea as a potential conflict zone.. But with this kind of a deal, i think USA and Japan may overtly and covertly nudge Philippine government to support Indian shipyard bid.

An armed Saryu class makes more sense, isn't it?

By the way, I don't think the French and Spanish would be able to offer lower prices than what we do.

 

[surya kiran]

What do you guys think of a specialized K15 Sagarika 6x6 land attack VLS launch module for missile boat.

L&T has a universal launcher for VLS. Land based Tatra and one for BrahMos on ships. They also have a missile boat stabilization solution, earlier developed for Dhanush. Am sure, they can work and customise for their Universal VLS. The diameters of BrahMos is 0.6m and K-15 is 0.74m.

What is more important is the ship stabilisation.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

What do you guys think of a specialized K15 Sagarika 6x6 land attack VLS launch module for missile boat. @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy

NGMV are basically for Anti Surface warfare.. Now, traditionally Anti-surface warfare is conducted by warships of different sizes and tonnages.. They can use torpedoes, guns, missiles, or mines.
Now missiles can be AshM with either BM/CM

For CMs we have Brahmos and Nirbhay with former already ready and later at some years more
For BM - There are 2 options
First is the bulky Dhanush a BM with AshM role
Other is of course K15 Sagarika variant.

The question to ask is
Is K15 an ASBM - Anti Ship Ballistic Missile
For that it requires 3 things

1. Sleek size with limited weight in a UVLS cell fitment of say 6x6 or 8x8 or 4x4. Since we have done such a thing for Brahmos on ships, i am sure such a UVLS can be deployed for surface ship
2. A sensor array mechanism to track ships on Real Time basis. We do have IRNSS for navigational update but for a comprehensive coverage with real time tracking we need a system with 4 satellites in place for our dedicated tracking, surveillance with secure data links to surface stations and coastal Surface radars. We can use aerial assets too like P8I or Do228(lesser degree) but we need various inputs in a centralized command center to give this real time tracking 24 x 7. This is the aspect which can give the mid course guidance
3. The terminal guidance mechanism in the missile comprising of inertial guidance+ IR homing + Active radar homing. Something available in Brahmos AshM.

Thus looking at the 3 points, point 1 and 3 are readily available. Its point 2 which is a concern. The battery of Surface Radar over coastal belts is a unfinished task. The NGMV with 10 days at best at sea implies area of ops within the vicinity of coastal region only. So Surface radars may help for the time being till dedicated satellite system comes in place.

So yes ASBM K15 Sagarika variant is possible as building blocks are in place and point 2 being addressed partially as of now and fully pretty soon.

This timeline is a bit too conservative. Say CSL receives the order for the follow-on class ship within a year of the IAC-1 sailing out of CSL (and into sea trails) so by around 2019, it will only take 6-7 years now to make a sister ship to IAC-1 so she could be in sea trails by as early as 2025-6 IMO. If the IN give the order for a follow-on in the next 24 months and there is little "down time" for CSL between IAC-1 and its sister ship then you can see her enter even earlier. The latter would be more optimal solution IMO because it reduces the risk of losing skilled man power and simply build upon the success of IAC-1. India needs to quit having these needless periods of inactivity on the back of successful projects, it is counter intuative to say the least.

I think the P-15B is an example that this policy/approach has been abadonded now though- the first P-15B's keel was laid whilst the P-15As were still in sea trails/being outfitted.

Bro, you forgot one small thing.. the follow ons are suppose to be modified and will carry 10%-15% more tonnage.. Thus modular construction benefit will be not 100% but around 80-85% owing to increase in overall work schedule and task in hands.. Thats the reason bro, i was extra conservative... 2026 is a normal timeline for a 100% copycat follow on ship building at 7 years timeline with order given max by 2017, start of construction right after IAC1 getting out of CSL and no wastage by downtime. Adding the additional tonnage and work and adding slack period i added 2 more years and said 2028.

 

[MilSpec]

L&T has a universal launcher for VLS. Land based Tatra and one for BrahMos on ships. They also have a missile boat stabilization solution, earlier developed for Dhanush. Am sure, they can work and customise for their Universal VLS. The diameters of BrahMos is 0.6m and K-15 is 0.74m.

What is more important is the ship stabilisation.

I think you won't need stabilization if it's a UVL Module. You need stabilization for Deck Launches.

 

[surya kiran]

I think you won't need stabilization if it's a UVL Module. You need stabilization for Deck Launches.

Aah...yes. That is possible. Arming the Khukris and Veers with BrahMos and K-15 is like a pocket destroyer.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Judging from the timeline of say 2028 types for the follow on ship, i will bet for Rafale M + LCA Navy since that ship and its wings will serve 50 years give and take 10 years here and there.. Mig 29K beyond 2050 timeline looks a bit difficult..Mig 35 perhaps yes...

Not 50, 40 years at most bro- for both the air craft and boat. And the MiG-35 is not that much more advanced than the MiG-29Ks (the MIG-29B/UPGs yes), it is effectively a optimised MiG-29K. Add an AESA and some other goodies onto the IN's MIG-29K/KUB during their MLU and the difference will be negligable.

If the need was envisioned for original 90, IN would have negotiated for some major offset and capability building as part of the deal. The issue it seems Vikaramaditya and IAC1 aerial wing the lethality is at best with Mig 29Ks and operational convenience is hoped with LCA Navy. Their theater of operations in possible future seems to be outer periphery of Indian Ocean. From the perspective of Arabian Sea and Bay of Bengal purely Indian peninsular part ACCs, based on future threat perceptions, IN is looking for far more lethal firepower. Especially 2 ACC which will house jets capable of delivering an N option in standoff or other mode...This clearly is the N ACC 2 in nos which will have Rafale M/F35 + AMCA N combination in future,

I've heard that 90 figure a few times but the trouble is the IN has failed to capitalise- no MII and no offsets and a follow-on order for 45 is not going to make MII viable at all. Had it been 90 from the outset it would have been possible to gain signifcant industrial advantadges for India but now, no.

For this reason I am really very unsure about what the air wing for the IAC-1's sister ship will be, 45 MiG-29K/KUB are nowhere near enough for 3 ACs and shore duties/training- it isn't even enough for 2 carriers, so there is a clear requirement for more fighters but I just don't know where the IN is looking for them. Orginally I had dismissed the idea that the IAC-1's sister ship would get the Rafale-M (IN's CATOBARs yes but not the STOBARs) but the more I think about it and the more murmours I hear from industrial sources the more I am thinking this is exactly what could happen. And, to be honest, time is with the IN, the IAC-1's sister ship will be in service, at the earliest, by 2026 so orders for its air wing need to be made by 2022 at the latest- that's 6 years away, ample time for this current Rafale drama with the IAF to be sorted out and an Indian Rafale production line to be set up.

Incidentally this is exactly what Dassualt told the IN recently (I heard from someone who works for one of Dassualt's rivals).


If Dassualt/France can get their act together they could have hit a pot of gold for the Rafale in India. Leave aside the IAF, the IN alone has a requirement for 80-100+ new fighters (leaving aside the N-LCA) by 2030 and if the IN gets more CATOBAR carriers (which seems likely) then they will need another 50-60 per AC.

 

[Penguin]

@PARIKRAMA @Penguin
Have a look at this https://m.facebook.com/philippinesdefense/photos/a.268163766632580.61605.268124096636547/910374222411528/?type=3&refid=17&_ft_=top_level_post_id.910374222411528:tl_objid.910374222411528:thid.268124096636547:306061129499414:69:0:1456819199:-4098610650303852108

Now does Karmorta fulfill these conditions?
I am assuming GRSE will offer Karmorta myself, they haven't said anything yet.

And how does the chances of an Indian win fare?

Revised technical specs:
- minimum 95 meters: P28=109.1m
- helipad for 12-ton and hangar for 10-ton helicopter: P28=Sea King=9,707 kg max T/o weight
- stealth with angled surfaces: check: X-form hull with sloped superstructure sides
- space for future installation of vertical launch missiles (8-cells) and towed array sonar: P28 designed for 2x2x8 VL Barak 1 or VL Mica (left and right of rear radar station over the hangar). If RBU6000s were deleted, with their automatic reloading system and magazines, there would be space forward of the bridhe.
- rat-proofing P28:Likely
- four main engines (CODAD) P28=4 × Pielstick 12 PA6 STC Diesel engines Combined Diesel and Diesel
- nuclear/biological/chemical (NBC) citadel P28 is capable of fighting in NBC conditions
- X- and S-band solid-state navigation radars min 200W peak power (just like the JCPVs) P28 has 2 nav radar and could mount systems like Decca Bridgemaster II (X-band) nav; 1 Decca 2690 ARPA (S-band)
- replenishment-at-sea stations: P28:Likely
- fitted with proponent's (supplier's) choice of tactical data link, space reserved for Link 16 and 22 P28: unknown at this time, should be possible.
- missiles and torpedoes must be from a country with whom the Philippines has a defense MOU
- 76mm main gun 120 rounds per minute check: 76mm
- 30mm or 40mm secondary gun with E/O tracking system against air and surface threats P28: 2x AK630 + 2x TMX/OE Mk2
- space for future installation of CIWS P28: has ciws
4 surface-to-surface missile launchers minimum 150kms range: P28: sufficient open deckspace to accommodate
- 4 surface-to-air missile launchers min. 6 kms range able to engage sea-skimmers P28 designed for 2x2x8 VL Barak 1 or VL Mica
- lightweight torpedoes P28:not at present. Could be swapped against 2x2 533mm heavy TR
- fire control radar and EO P28 2x TMX/OE Mk2 X-band fire control radar with secondary electro-optical and IR sensors for targeting
- 3D air search radar min 100 nm against air targets with solid-state transmitter : P28 has Revathi 3D radar, operating in the S-band, used for both surface and air search up to a distance of 200 km. (108nmi)
- hull sonar medium-frequency P28: HUMSA -NG bow mounted sonar and Atlas Elektronik towed array sonar. helicopter will have dunking sonar and sonobouys.
- electronic support measures P28: (ESM) BEL Ajanta Bomber Electronic Warfare (EW) suite
- decoy launchers P28: Elbit Systems Deseaver MK II counter-measures systems and defensive aids suite
- combat management system P28 EMDINA combat management system (CMS)
- deck-locking and railless traverse system for helicopter handling P28 has 'rail-less helo traversing system'
- 2 RHIBs min 7 meters P28 has 2 Ribs

 

[ni8mare]

 

[MilSpec]

Aah...yes. That is possible. Arming the Khukris and Veers with BrahMos and K-15 is like a pocket destroyer.

NGMV are basically for Anti Surface warfare.. Now, traditionally Anti-surface warfare is conducted by warships of different sizes and tonnages.. They can use torpedoes, guns, missiles, or mines.
Now missiles can be AshM with either BM/CM

For CMs we have Brahmos and Nirbhay with former already ready and later at some years more
For BM - There are 2 options
First is the bulky Dhanush a BM with AshM role
Other is of course K15 Sagarika variant.

The question to ask is
Is K15 an ASBM - Anti Ship Ballistic Missile
For that it requires 3 things

1. Sleek size with limited weight in a UVLS cell fitment of say 6x6 or 8x8 or 4x4. Since we have done such a thing for Brahmos on ships, i am sure such a UVLS can be deployed for surface ship
2. A sensor array mechanism to track ships on Real Time basis. We do have IRNSS for navigational update but for a comprehensive coverage with real time tracking we need a system with 4 satellites in place for our dedicated tracking, surveillance with secure data links to surface stations and coastal Surface radars. We can use aerial assets too like P8I or Do228(lesser degree) but we need various inputs in a centralized command center to give this real time tracking 24 x 7. This is the aspect which can give the mid course guidance
3. The terminal guidance mechanism in the missile comprising of inertial guidance+ IR homing + Active radar homing. Something available in Brahmos AshM.

Thus looking at the 3 points, point 1 and 3 are readily available. Its point 2 which is a concern. The battery of Surface Radar over coastal belts is a unfinished task. The NGMV with 10 days at best at sea implies area of ops within the vicinity of coastal region only. So Surface radars may help for the time being till dedicated satellite system comes in place.

So yes ASBM K15 Sagarika variant is possible as building blocks are in place and point 2 being addressed partially as of now and fully pretty soon.



Bro, you forgot one small thing.. the follow ons are suppose to be modified and will carry 10%-15% more tonnage.. Thus modular construction benefit will be not 100% but around 80-85% owing to increase in overall work schedule and task in hands.. Thats the reason bro, i was extra conservative... 2026 is a normal timeline for a 100% copycat follow on ship building at 7 years timeline with order given max by 2017, start of construction right after IAC1 getting out of CSL and no wastage by downtime. Adding the additional tonnage and work and adding slack period i added 2 more years and said 2028.

I am more interested in the NGMV's Land attack role, similar to OP Trident/Python application. A unit with 6x6 K15 module, along with a secondary, 8cell Brahmos/Nirbhay UVLM and a 24 cell Barak 1 with 2xAK603.

A kamorta Platform would be good, instead of 6x6 K15, even if we can put in a 4x4 K15 on the platform, you now have a 1000 KM of rock and roll. It will be a big missile boat and quite potent if we go down that route.

If it's going to be a Brahmos/nirbhay ship, then sure Kamorta is still great but, I wouldn't mind seeing a variant of the Pipavav NOPV adapted to this. Lets see what the Indian Navy's Directorate of Naval Design comes up with, there work has been pretty good.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Revised technical specs:
- minimum 95 meters: P28=109.1m
- helipad for 12-ton and hangar for 10-ton helicopter: P28=Sea King=9,707 kg max T/o weight
- stealth with angled surfaces: check: X-form hull with sloped superstructure sides
- space for future installation of vertical launch missiles (8-cells) and towed array sonar: P28 designed for 2x2x8 VL Barak 1 or VL Mica (left and right of rear radar station over the hangar). If RBU6000s were deleted, with their automatic reloading system and magazines, there would be space forward of the bridhe.
- rat-proofing P28:Likely
- four main engines (CODAD) P28=4 × Pielstick 12 PA6 STC Diesel engines Combined Diesel and Diesel
- nuclear/biological/chemical (NBC) citadel P28 is capable of fighting in NBC conditions
- X- and S-band solid-state navigation radars min 200W peak power (just like the JCPVs) P28 has 2 nav radar and could mount systems like Decca Bridgemaster II (X-band) nav; 1 Decca 2690 ARPA (S-band)
- replenishment-at-sea stations: P28:Likely
- fitted with proponent's (supplier's) choice of tactical data link, space reserved for Link 16 and 22 P28: unknown at this time, should be possible.
- missiles and torpedoes must be from a country with whom the Philippines has a defense MOU
- 76mm main gun 120 rounds per minute check: 76mm
- 30mm or 40mm secondary gun with E/O tracking system against air and surface threats P28: 2x AK630 + 2x TMX/OE Mk2
- space for future installation of CIWS P28: has ciws
4 surface-to-surface missile launchers minimum 150kms range: P28: sufficient open deckspace to accommodate
- 4 surface-to-air missile launchers min. 6 kms range able to engage sea-skimmers P28 designed for 2x2x8 VL Barak 1 or VL Mica
- lightweight torpedoes P28:not at present. Could be swapped against 2x2 533mm heavy TR
- fire control radar and EO P28 2x TMX/OE Mk2 X-band fire control radar with secondary electro-optical and IR sensors for targeting
- 3D air search radar min 100 nm against air targets with solid-state transmitter : P28 has Revathi 3D radar, operating in the S-band, used for both surface and air search up to a distance of 200 km. (108nmi)
- hull sonar medium-frequency P28: HUMSA -NG bow mounted sonar and Atlas Elektronik towed array sonar. helicopter will have dunking sonar and sonobouys.
- electronic support measures P28: (ESM) BEL Ajanta Bomber Electronic Warfare (EW) suite
- decoy launchers P28: Elbit Systems Deseaver MK II counter-measures systems and defensive aids suite
- combat management system P28 EMDINA combat management system (CMS)
- deck-locking and railless traverse system for helicopter handling P28 has 'rail-less helo traversing system'
- 2 RHIBs min 7 meters P28 has 2 Ribs

Also, what is the endurance of Karmorta class? I mean once fully loaded with fuel , ammo, food and water, how many days can it spend away from harbours?
Also if possible a link would be very good, because I need to ' prove ' it to someone.
Thanks.

 

[Penguin]

Indian Navy's Fourth Kamorta Class ASW Corvette ‘INS Kavaratti’ Launched by GRSE Shipyard > more than 3000 nmi (n speed given)
Navy commissions 2nd Kamorta-class ASW corvette | StratPost > 3450 nmi (no speed given)
Second Kamorta Class Stealth ASW Corvette ‘INS Kadmatt’ Handed Over to Indian Navy > about 3500 nmi (no speed given)
Kamorta Project 28 ASW Corvette - Units & Specifications > 4000nmi (unclear at what cruise speed)

Range: 3,500 nmi (6,500 km; 4,000 mi) at 18 kn (33 km/h; 21 mph)
Kamorta-class corvette - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
India's first indigenous anti-submarine warfare ship ready - Times of India