Indian Navy News & Discussions

[Abingdonboy]

 

[Abingdonboy]

AG Recommends Cancellation of South Korea Deal -The New Indian Express

@sancho you criticise the new GoI for not moving forward on various deals but faced with this sort of ingrained culture of wrongdoing there is no way the new GoI could move ahead with tainted deals. It is here in black and white- the AG of India says so, if the GoI went ahead with it anyway just for the sake of modernising the military it would erode the trust of their electorate many fold and lead to the kind of bitterness you saw directed against the UPA 2.

Fresh starts are the only way to go in some cases.

 

[sancho]

AG Recommends Cancellation of South Korea Deal -The New Indian Express

@sancho you criticise the new GoI for not moving forward on various deals but faced with this sort of ingrained culture of wrongdoing there is no way the new GoI could move ahead with tainted deals. It is here in black and white- the AG of India says so, if the GoI went ahead with it anyway just for the sake of modernising the military it would erode the trust of their electorate many fold and lead to the kind of bitterness you saw directed against the UPA 2.

Fresh starts are the only way to go in some cases.

No, I criticize them for purposly delaying key deals, only to implement a policy that has nothing to do with defence in the first place. So I am not randomly criticizing them, I even stated in the thread that this decision is a good one, if there are proven wrongdoings, but that issue has nothing to do with the delays in the SSK, LUH, N-LUH deals.

 

[Abingdonboy]

No, I criticize them for purposly delaying key deals, only to implement a policy that has nothing to do with defence in the first place. So I am not randomly criticizing them, I even stated in the thread that this decision is a good one, if there are proven wrongdoings, but that issue has nothing to do with the delays in the SSK, LUH, N-LUH deals.

Well to be fair sir the LUH deal was dogged with the same accusations of wrongdoing and taint, making any forward movement pretty untenable from the new GoI's point of view.

As for the SSK deal, it wasn't going anywhere, the RFP hadn't even been released so I don't see how the new GoI has in any way slowed down the process, in fact they have moved forward with the process where the previous GoI stalled.

Similarly with the N-LUH deal, the deal doesn't seem to have gone anywhere in the last 2 years so perhaps a clean start and opening it up to the Indian pvt sector will provide a fresh impetus in this deal. Short term pain (if any) for long term gains...

I will agree with you though that the new GoI is taking political decisions at the cost of the Indian Military's modernisation efforts IF it turns out they really have cancelled the N-MRH deal in favour of opening up to Indian private companies in a "make India" deal (there are conflicting reports on this right now) and IF the GoI does anything but sign for the Rafale (re-tendering, scrapping, looking at EFT etc).

 

[sancho]

Well to be fair sir the LUH deal was dogged with the same accusations of wrongdoing and taint, making any forward movement pretty untenable from the new GoI's point of view.

If that would be true, the deal would had been scrapped for corruption and not just to implement the make in India policy isn't it?

I don't see how the new GoI has in any way slowed down the process, in fact they have moved forward with the process where the previous GoI stalled.

Wrong! They scrapped an re-issued it, changed the 2 + 4 procurement to 6 being build in India, they want a 2nd production line which is not existent today, they demand team ups with partners, before a joint bid can be placed... all that delays the procurement, when they simply could had moved on the original tender. That actually would had speed up the process and the modernisation, but that's not what they want is it?

Similarly with the N-LUH deal, the deal doesn't seem to have gone anywhere in the last 2 years

You constantly trying to find excuses by pointing to the past, what's important though is, what is the result of the decisions the new MoD took and in none of these tenders that were scrapped and re-issued, a decision can be taken faster now. So they purposly delayed things and as I said earlier, if they at least would had justified it with any defence related reason, one could accept it maybe, but here the forces are suffering because of a political agenda that is aimed on improving economy, not defence modernisation. A propper DM would never had allowed that to happen, because his priority would had been the forces, not the economy.

Simple questions simple answer please!

1) could the new MoD had selected a winner in the LUH procurement now?
2) could they had moved forward with the SSK and N - LUH tenders and speed up things with the reduced bureaucracy they are pushing now?
3) did the PM / MoD actually did the opposite of what the 3 chiefs asked for, by speeding up SSK and LUH procurements?

 

[Abingdonboy]

INS Shakti refuels the USS Carl Vinson

 

[Gessler]

Whoa. Gallium Nitride (GaN)-based tech on MF-STAR? That's like 5 times the transmitting power of traditional Gallium Arsenide (GaAs) TRMs as found on most AESA radars of today.

Brilliant find!

 

[Abingdonboy]

1) could the new MoD had selected a winner in the LUH procurement now?

In theory they could have but that would have left them open to some serious political attack. As I've explained, this deal was incredibly tainted and perhaps too toxic to touch.

2) could they had moved forward with the SSK and N - LUH tenders and speed up things with the reduced bureaucracy they are pushing now?

Of course they could have but sir, I think that you are coming at this from one ideology and the new GoI from another ideology. The GoI's ideology is about maximising India's manufacturing base and thus, in some way, securing India's strategic autonomy. They have clearly given higher importance to this than meeting the military's immediate needs in the hops of facing some short term pain for long term gains.

3) did the PM / MoD actually did the opposite of what the 3 chiefs asked for, by speeding up SSK and LUH procurements?

Indeed that did happen and for the reasons I have outlined above.

 

[sancho]

In theory they could have but that would have left them open to some serious political attack. As I've explained, this deal was incredibly tainted and perhaps too toxic to touch.

Again, they didn't changed anything wrt the corruption issue, did you saw any report that would exclude AW from bidding in the new tender? They could not only have done it theoretically, but should had done it practically, since the forces are in need of modernisation here. Giving preference to their political / economical agenda therefor is plain against the forces!

Of course they could have but sir, I think that you are coming at this from one ideology and the new GoI from another ideology. The GoI's ideology is about maximising India's manufacturing base and thus, in some way, securing India's strategic autonomy. They have clearly given higher importance to this than meeting the military's immediate needs in the hops of facing some short term pain for long term gains.

No, they are giving it to the "private" industry at max, that's the only difference since all these deals were to be licence produced in India anyway. So if supporting Indian industry alone would be the aim, they could had moved on with the original deal too, without the delays. That's even what I criticize, because the difference in the policy is so little, while the outcome of the changes is big with none of these deals being done by this and some possibly not even next year.

Indeed that did happen and for the reasons I have outlined above.

So how can you be happy about this and find excuses for a decision that purposly was taken against the wish of our forces? If Antony had done it you would had gone nuts about it, right?

 

[Agent_47]

https://twitter.com/x/status/529346238257184768

Dedicated to pessimism of @sancho

 

[Abingdonboy]

Again, they didn't changed anything wrt the corruption issue, did you saw any report that would exclude AW from bidding in the new tender?

Well I'm sure the GoI will follow the Attorney General's guidelines:

- All ongoing contracts will continue unhindered.
- All contracts related to spares will continue.
-Contracts with Russian manufacturers, where Finmeccanica is involved in the back-end, will continue.
-Finmeccanica will be allowed to participate in all tenders but if there are multiple options, Finmeccanica will not be considered regardless of the competitiveness of the offer.

No, they are giving it to the "private" industry at max, that's the only difference since all these deals were to be licence produced in India anyway. So if supporting Indian industry alone would be the aim, they could had moved on with the original deal too,

But there is definitely some merit to the notion that including more Indian pvt entities in the production side of defence equipment is a massive boost for India's defence industry and military as a result. Continuing the deal as it was would have meant the further burdening of already over-burdened PSUs. As I said, from the GoI's POV, it is more than likely that they saw their move to give the deal to the pvt sector as good for India and the military long term and the opportunity cost of the delay acceptable.

 

[sancho]

https://twitter.com/x/status/529346238257184768

Dedicated to pessimism of @sancho

My pessimism is based on their trackrecord of messing things up and if I remember right, a recent article mentioned that the first trials of the engine are planned for Feb, so I wouldn't call it ready now. What bothers me more though, is the implementation part into the sub, because both were developed independently and not meant to fit each other. Apart from development issues, that is the biggest risk for delays of that subs, but no matter what, it was a silly decision to not go for the French AIP in the first subs. They could had simply taken 6 with MESMA and the next 6 with DRDO AIP, instead of making 1/3rd of the fleet less capable.

Well I'm sure the GoI will follow the Attorney General's guidelines

And that shows that the scrapping has nothing to do with the corruption issue, because they could had selected a winner now without dealing with the Italians in this deal anymore, but now might bring them back in the game again. So that excuse doesn't hold it's own.

But there is definitely some merit to the notion that including more Indian pvt entities in the production side of defence equipment

Of course there is, that's why it's good that the new government has (re-named but) taken the UPA policy of
Buy and Make (Indian) and increases competition by inviting private sector. But it's nuts to do it in already running, or even more so in tenders that were ready to be finished now. They could had implemented that policy in any new tender, but scrapping running tenders and re-issuing them with the resulting delays is bad for the forces.
And as we can see now in the Avro replacement, the policy alone is not enough either, you need the Indian and foreign industry to participate in these tenders too, so lets see how much more delay these tenders will see, if they face the same problems.

 

[sathya]

Indian Navy subs can soon stay longer under water

Indian scientists have developed technology that will enable the navy’s conventional non-nuclear submarines stay under water for up to two weeks before replenishing their oxygen supply, thus increasing their stealth capabilities. “Conventional submarines usually need to come to the surface every three to four days for replenishing their oxygen supply,” an official of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), which has developed the Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system, told IANS, speaking on condition of anonymity. For the replenishment, a diesel submarine has to come to periscope depth and raise its snorkel, which makes it vulnerable to detection. “With AIP, a conventional submarine can stay under water for up to two weeks,” the official said, adding that India is the only non-Western nation to have developed the technology.

AIP can replace or supplement the diesel-electric propulsion systems of conventional submarines. It also makes a vessel noise-free. The system, which is in an advanced stage of development, will be mounted on last two of the six Scorpene submarines being manufactured in India in collaboration with France. These two submarines are expected to be ready in a couple of years, along with the AIP system. “We took up the project in 2010, and the work is in an advanced stage. The tests are going on,” the official said. The DRDO is also hopeful that the system will be used in the six conventional submarines that were recently cleared for being domestically manufactured. “So far it is not clear who will be making the six new conventional submarines, but if it is successful in the Scorpene, it will open the door for its incorporation in other submarines as well,” the official said.

The system, which is based on a fuel cell, converts methanol-like substances to produce hydrogen, which in turn produces electricity. While diesel engines need oxygen to function, these cells are air independent. The official said the Naval Materials Research Laboratory (NMRL) based in Ambernath in Maharashtra, which has developed the AIP, has already tied up with several Indian Public Sector Units (PSUs) and the private sector as partners in the project. Production will start as soon as the final tests are over.

http://idrw.org/?p=46332 | idrw.org

 

[sudhir007]

 

[skynet]

^^ awesome