Indian Navy News & Discussions

[sancho]

It does have a certain quantum of operable capabilities suited for amphibious assault but it is woefully outdated, the lack of a well deck means that it cannot deploy the landing crafts in more turbulent sea states while a well deck can operate even in sea state-5 and allows for heavier landing platforms such as LCACs to be used for deploying troops and heavy vehicles from beyond the horizon.

The lack of a well deck actually is not an issue, if combined with other vessels like LDP's LST's or JSS's, Viraat would basically used as an helicopter carrier to transport troops and light cargo to the shore, while the other vessels take over the vehicle and heavy cargo transportations.
However, I agree with you that the Viraat is simply too old and has too many issues to keep it repaired and upgraded, for a role a humanitarian role that is rare and if we can get JSS's LDP's or even LHDs with more capability for reasonable costs.
Not to forget that we can simply use Viki or IAC 1 as an helicopter carrier as well, by simply replacing most of the fighters with helis in such humanitarian missions. The operational use of amphibious capabilities for India will remain very limited though and therefor the operational costs and benefits in peace times should be most important. What are the costs for keeping INS Viraat or INS Jalashwa operational? That's where joint support ships are far more variable and cost-effective, since they can switch roles on demand and will be constantly used in war and peace times.

 

[Dillinger]

The lack of a well deck actually is not an issue, if combined with other vessels like LDP's LST's or JSS's, Viraat would basically used as an helicopter carrier to transport troops and light cargo to the shore, while the other vessels take over the vehicle and heavy cargo transportations.
However, I agree with you that the Viraat is simply too old and has too many issues to keep it repaired and upgraded, for a role a humanitarian role that is rare and if we can get JSS's LDP's or even LHDs with more capability for reasonable costs.
Not to forget that we can simply use Viki or IAC 1 as an helicopter carrier as well, by simply replacing most of the fighters with helis in such humanitarian missions. The operational use of amphibious capabilities for India will remain very limited though and therefor the operational costs and benefits in peace times should be most important. What are the costs for keeping INS Viraat or INS Jalashwa operational? That's where joint support ships are far more variable and cost-effective, since they can switch roles on demand and will be constantly used in war and peace times.

If we try to use Viraat for amphibious assault in today's scenario then the vessel is going to get written off, being incapable of operating over the horizon means that it will have to get dangerously close to the enemy shores (which means shore based ASMs and naval strike air crafts will have a vicious go at it) to disembark troops unless it is used solely for heliborne ops and that too of a limited nature as dictated by its troop carrying capacity. Not to mention that it can only accommodate light infantry and doesn't have a vehicles hangar. So @Capt.Popeye's idea of using it for VERTREP and vertical envelopment is valid but I can't imagine its worth the cost for just that. It is not going to survive in today's world if it is to be used as the tip of the spear and is easily outmatched by the current crop of LHD/LPHs. On the other hand it can be used for providing a modicum of CAS and fleet air defence for the LSTs we use since yet again the LSTs have to get perilously close to enemy shores. Although both CAS and air defence will require the continued operation of the jump-jets, @Capt.Popeye can shed light on how much life those birds have left and whether it would be beneficial to look towards extending their life and/or upgrading them to meet the requirements of the future.

 

[Dillinger]

@sancho Btw INS Jalashwa actually has its uses given that it can accommodate a LCAC and be used for amphibious ops without putting it too close to shoe based threats. But we will need relatively larger amphibious transport docks too along with LPHs.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

If we try to use Viraat for amphibious assault in today's scenario then the vessel is going to get written off, being incapable of operating over the horizon means that it will have to get dangerously close to the enemy shores (which means shore based ASMs and naval strike air crafts will have a vicious go at it) to disembark troops unless it is used solely for heliborne ops and that too of a limited nature as dictated by its troop carrying capacity. Not to mention that it can only accommodate light infantry and doesn't have a vehicles hangar. So @Capt.Popeye's idea of using it for VERTREP and vertical envelopment is valid but I can't imagine its worth the cost for just that. It is not going to survive in today's world if it is to be used as the tip of the spear and is easily outmatched by the current crop of LHD/LPHs. On the other hand it can be used for providing a modicum of CAS and fleet air defence for the LSTs we use since yet gain the LSTs have to get perilously close to enemy shores. Although both CAS and air defence will require the continued operation of the jump-jets, @Capt.Popeye can shed light on how much life those birds have left and whether it would be beneficial to look towards extending their life and/or upgrading them to meet the requirements of the future.

LOLL; why in the Good Lord's name do you want the Viraat to carry Heavy Vehicles?????

As is; she can accommodate upto a Battalion of troops; as she once did during the IPKF era. The troops can be landed by an Air-Bridge, SeaKing 42Cs and even Chinooks. Stands to reason then that may well be SF units. Her LCVPs have a secondary role. Apart from that she has all the qualities of a Helicopter Carrier which can embark Attack Helos such as the Rudras, LCH and Apaches to provide the CAS on the Beach-Head. PLUS; Do not overlook the SHARs that can still provide Air-Defence as well as CAS/BAS. No LHD/LPD has that kind of fixed-wing capability as an organic component.

Then, its only the Magars and Gharials that will need to approach close onto the Beach-Head itself. Both Jalashwa and Viraat will be operating in deeper waters; so what on earth did you mean in context of Viraat being unable to operate OTH?

 

[Dillinger]

LOLL; why in the Good Lord's name do you want the Viraat to carry Heavy Vehicles?????

As is; she can accommodate upto a Battalion of troops; as she once did during the IPKF era. The troops can be landed by an Air-Bridge, SeaKing 42Cs and even Chinooks. Stands to reason then that may well be SF units. Her LCVPs have a secondary role. Apart from that she has all the qualities of a Helicopter Carrier which can embark Attack Helos such as the Rudras, LCH and Apaches to provide the CAS on the Beach-Head. PLUS; Do not overlook the SHARs that can still provide Air-Defence as well as CAS/BAS. No LHD/LPD has that kind of fixed-wing capability as an organic component.

Then, its only the Magars and Gharials that will need to approach close onto the Beach-Head itself. Both Jalashwa and Viraat will be operating in deeper waters; so what on earth did you mean in context of Viraat being unable to operate OTH?

I meant if it tried to carry out an amphibious landing using the LCVPs, those tin boats don't have much range and therefore necessitate getting far too close to the shores much like in the case of the ghariyals, which is never a good thing. The Jalashwa obvio is better suited for amphib landings or deploying troops to get a beach-head going. I agree though that the Viraat could be used akin to the America-class vessels with the helos and jump-jets, specially for deploying SF personnel like you stated, but is that role worth the associated costs?

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I meant if it tried to carry out an amphibious landing using the LCVPs, those tin boats don't have much range and therefore necessitate getting far too close to the shores much like in the case of the ghariyals, which is never a good thing. The Jalashwa obvio is better suited for amphib landings or deploying troops to get a beach-head going. I agree though that the Viraat could be used akin to the America-class vessels with the helos and jump-jets, specially for deploying SF personnel like you stated, but is that role worth the associated costs?

C'mon now, with Helos on board; the LCVPs will not get used. Do not make the mistake of considering them even to be "Tin Boats"; they can embark Vehicles apart from men.
Don't let your imagination run wild ; either wrt to Viraat or her LCVPs.

Think at what ranges her respective air-assets will be able to operate and you'll get some idea then at what range She will stand-off from the Beach-Head.

 

[Dillinger]

C'mon now, with Helos on board; the LCVPs will not get used. Do not make the mistake of considering them even to be "Tin Boats"; they can embark Vehicles apart from men.
Don't let your imagination run wild ; either wrt to Viraat or her LCVPs.

Think at what ranges her respective air-assets will be able to operate and you'll get some idea then at what range She will stand-off from the Beach-Head.

So how much life to the jump-jets have left in them? The FCR and A2A missile upgrades did them some good, think they'll be able to handle fleet air defence against say SL? I've always wanted to invade SL, right after mopping up BD.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

So how much life to the jump-jets have left in them? The FCR and A2A missile upgrades did them some good, think they'll be able to handle fleet air defence against say SL? I've always wanted to invade SL, right after mopping up BD.

Much more than SL. Any other fleet or local AF in the region. If you view the picture holistically.

 

[Dillinger]

Much more than SL. Any other fleet or local AF in the region. If you view the picture holistically.

Not Pakistan though, the jump-jets will not be happy if they have to face off with the JFTs, its just that the proliferation of shore based ASMs is going to make life very short and rather interesting for the older vessels, no?

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Not Pakistan though, the jump-jets will not be happy if they have to face off with the JFTs, its just that the proliferation of shore based ASMs is going to make life very short and rather interesting for the older vessels, no?

Do you believe all the stories that you hear?
Maybe yuo did as a kid at your Grandma's knee.
Read again what I said: "If you view the picture holistically."

 

[Dillinger]

Do you believe all the stories that you hear?
Maybe yuo did as a kid at your Grandma's knee.
Read again what I said: "If you view the picture holistically."

Actually it was the assessment of the Antonio class vessels, where it was found that they were going to get pretty badly mauled in the presence of ASM equipped modern ACs and ASM batteries that got me thinking.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Actually it was the assessment of the Antonio class vessels, where it was found that they were going to get pretty badly mauled in the presence of ASM equipped modern ACs and ASM batteries that got me thinking.

There are adversaries and there are adversaries.
Not that I am advocating any recklessness, but threat perceptions while necessarily being realistic are not the final parameter in a battle plan. Audaciousness also gets called upon, or any force will be loath to go on the offensive.

 

[Indischer]

So how much life to the jump-jets have left in them? The FCR and A2A missile upgrades did them some good, think they'll be able to handle fleet air defence against say SL? I've always wanted to invade SL, right after mopping up BD.

Isn't there a question of how many too? I've heard(from those in HAL) that IN at present only has around half a dozen serviceable Harriers. Isn't this too little for any meaningful offensive ops?

 

[Dillinger]

Isn't there a question of how many too? I've heard(from those in HAL) that IN at present only has around half a dozen serviceable Harriers. Isn't this too little for any meaningful offensive ops?

There is that, but limited CAS on the beach-heads can still be provided besides the Captain is thinking more along the lines of a dedicated helo carrier for vertical deployment of light infantry/sf with limited fixed wing assets.

 

[Indischer]

There is that, but limited CAS on the beach-heads can still be provided besides the Captain is thinking more along the lines of a dedicated helo carrier with limited fixed wing assets for vertical deployment of light infantry/sf.

A possibly good option until the procurement of LPDs. But going by how things get done in Def Procurement, is it a better tactic for the IN to decommission the Viraat and then pressurize the Govt to induct LPDs on an urgent basis?