Indian national priority number one: 28nm Semicondutor fab

[Śakra]

Any body who can't stare into facts with cold objective eyes is a useless nationalist. He may cause more damage than good regardless of his intentions.

I swear u better not insult Comrade Modi. He will open up 10 fab units 7nm max.

 

[Indika]

Various points here:

1. Make in India doesn't need Semiconductor Fabs to succeed. If India even reaches China's manufacturing strength today, where semiconductor manufacturing is minimal, it will be a big deal.
2. 3-4 billion dollars is pretty much the minimum that is required for a fab.
3. India has absolutely no infrastructure, supply chain, and talent in fabs.
4. AMD is not offering anything substantive. Certainly not money.
5. There were two concrete plans to build a fab. One has already ended with JP pulling out. The other may soon meet the same fate.
6. Indian bureaucrats have themselves recognized that putting a fab right now is premature.
7. A 28 nm fab in India, won't create other fabs in China redundant. Smaller node sizes are not a necessity for all kinds of chips, and certainly not economical, or feasible.
8. A lot of semiconductor manufacturing still happens on higher nodes.
9. India has not even finalized the plan, got the money. Even if that would happen, it will take a couple of years to actually get it working.
10. No major chip fab, that runs 28 nm today has signed up. Which includes TSMC, UMC, Intel, Samsung, Gloflo.
11. Where will the required technology and IP come for the 28 nm process?

12. China is not sitting still. It already has a 28 nm fab running at SMIC. SMIC intends to start 14/16 nm trial runs from the next year. TSMC (The 800 pound gorilla) is itself building a 16 nm fab in China which will start operation by the next year. Gloflo is building its own fab in Chengdu which will ultimately operate on 22 nm FD-SOI process.

13. These fabs we are talking about are microprocessor centric fabs. You then need separate fabs for MEMS, Memory, LED, etc.

14. China is running fabs now since at least 2000s, more than a decade. Apart from that China has easy access to all the talent present in Taiwan, which has been the fabrication hub. In fact, China's largest foundry, SMIC, is run by a Taiwanese. A million or more Taiwanese work in China.



They were talking about LCD. Which again, needs a separate kind of fab.



How is R and D shifting to India. Will you like to elaborate?

Its a chicken & egg problem. Unless you have it prices wont come down ,consumption wont increase and no one will invest in creating products based on it. If we start working towards it , things will automatically fall into place only thing is that it will take time.

I swear u better not insult Comrade Modi. He will open up 10 fab units 7nm max.

dude,thats not a reliance refinery to open in a day or two. If it was we would have already done so.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

Its a chicken & egg problem. Unless you have it prices wont come down ,consumption wont increase and no one will invest in creating products based on it. If we start working towards it , things will automatically fall into place only thing is that it will take time.

No! Totally incorrect:

(I like giving long answers in points because it is more readable)

1. There is no chicken and egg problem. All countries in the electronics space start from the bottom of the supply chain and then slowly rise up.
2. China manufacturers more than half of all electronic products in the world. And almost all of its semiconductors was imported. So, manufactures easily come and manufacture without a semiconductor supply base.
3. Semiconductor Manufacturing is a fine art. It requires a lot of stuff. That is the reason why only few companies in the world are able to compete in the fab space.
4. Even if India were to set up a fab. The costs would be higher. Not lower. This is not some restaurant waiter service. India has NO supply base. Even a fab needs a supply base, to supply required chemicals (used in manufacture), wafers, masks, and dozens of things. Apart from that India will have to import a lot of talent to run the fab. Then there is everything from poor infrastructure, to poor electric supply, and on and on we go.
5. India should focus on the lower end of supply chain first. Like China did it. Focus first on assembly. Then on basic components. Then on more components. And keep moving up. Semiconductor fabs are literally the highest end of the value chain.
6. Semiconductor Manufacturing is not a commodity. It is not price sensitive. Technology matters. And it changes too fast. Today people have 16 nm processes already working. By 2021, we will have 3 nm processes in operation.

 

[rcrmj]

No! Totally incorrect:

(I like giving long answers in points because it is more readable)

1. There is no chicken and egg problem. All countries in the electronics space start from the bottom of the supply chain and then slowly rise up.
2. China manufacturers more than half of all electronic products in the world. And almost all of its semiconductors was imported. So, manufactures easily come and manufacture without a semiconductor supply base.
3. Semiconductor Manufacturing is a fine art. It requires a lot of stuff. That is the reason why only few companies in the world are able to compete in the fab space.
4. Even if India were to set up a fab. The costs would be higher. Not lower. This is not some restaurant waiter service. India has NO supply base. Even a fab needs a supply base, to supply required chemicals (used in manufacture), wafers, masks, and dozens of things. Apart from that India will have to import a lot of talent to run the fab. Then there is everything from poor infrastructure, to poor electric supply, and on and on we go.
5. India should focus on the lower end of supply chain first. Like China did it. Focus first on assembly. Then on basic components. Then on more components. And keep moving up. Semiconductor fabs are literally the highest end of the value chain.
6. Semiconductor Manufacturing is not a commodity. It is not price sensitive. Technology matters. And it changes too fast. Today people have 16 nm processes already working. By 2021, we will have 3 nm processes in operation.

lol, you seem not to be only a Chinese picker, but also picking on your own Country```good luck for injecting common sense to your countrymen

everything starts from bottom, I guess this universal consensus is alien to most Indian````India is nowhere to be seen in electronic industry even with a magnifying glasses, and now bragging about becoming a fab hub and R&D?

 

[terranMarine]

lol, you seem not to be only a Chinese picker, but also picking on your own Country```good luck for injecting common sense to your countrymen

everything starts from bottom, I guess this universal consensus is alien to most Indian````India is nowhere to be seen in electronic industry even with a magnifying glasses, and now bragging about becoming a fab hub and R&D?

China has a rooster laying golden eggs so why should we slaughter it

 

[punit]

Stop being anti-nationalist.

what is ant national in his post ? @Bussard Ramjet just ignore the butt hurt false flaggers.

 

[Indx-techs]

@Nilgiri
At first place, it's the problem of management & investment.

Wafer Fabrication Facility at the SemiConductor Laboratory, Chandigarh
Besides that, ever heard of NAVIKA?

​

We have been producing chips without fabs, just not mass producing for civil use, even besides that we've very good design houses outsourcing plenty to foreign firms.

Chinese members seem to obsessed with manufacturing for trolling Indians (not to forget that China license produces British Company ARM's chips itself ), designing houses too matter a lot.
India has many nice design houses who not only served ISRO & DRDO but foreign firms too.
How about having atomic sized semiconductors? Transistors with just 30 silicon atoms?

Pic above: Atomic scale structure of FinFETs and the etching
India is designing chips <7nm and you are taking entire credit away from India because India will need to invest around $100 billions to build manufacturing capability of modern phone chips which it can't afford right now?

Is that fair honestly tell me.
Anyway, OT:
Challenges:

• The initial investment is high, Indian firms won't invest such a big amount without a guarantee for profit.
• The skilled labour issue.

How get over?

• Let the government do entire initial funding! http://m.economictimes.com/industry...al-semiconductor-hub/articleshow/57261190.cms
• As skilled labourers' number has to be increased gradually, you have another solution to make technology parks to concentrate firms (like we did for Software & IT industry, this time for hardware). And simply, it won't make sense if you are making chips in Prantij, screens & cameras in Noida or printed circuits somewhere in Bangalore before you assemble them in New Delhi. Taiwan was successful because Fab & other tech units are side by side.

For all sorts of Noob here, I think I have been tracking the semiconductor issue closer than you since last 5-6 years and may be slightly knowing more than you.

Though, I know that putting link of other forums is violation of rules, I'm still doing it.

http:// defence forumindia. com/forum/threads/indian-electronics-and-semiconductor-manufacturing-industry.77940/page-2

[Remove the spaces and use the link, I hope all of concerns raised by bussard ramjet must have been clarified here].

good luck for injecting common sense to your countrymen

In the similar way by which SinoSoldier injects common sense to Chinese? Isn't that?

This site is littered with false flaggers, specially Pakistanis pretending to be anyone else.
abcxyz, Bharat Muslim, faithfulguy, Bussard Ramjet, Indian Patriot, endyashainin and a lot more.

I trolled some of em in Hindi/Urdu and got the responses, enough.
If you are still willing to hide faces behind em, go.
I left this site because of them and came back just for semiconductor thread.

 

[Kinetic]

28nm is OK, current generation processors from AMD and Intel are 14nm and going to be 8nm in next two years.


We direly need atleast three semi fab before 2020.

 

[Indx-techs]

The Semi fab needs to be the most latest possible. This fab should make the old fabs in China obsolete. Make in India will never be successful without a advanced Semiconductor fab.

Do you know the reason why China is investing in those ten "outdated" 300nm chips plants?
Because new technology for advanced smartphones doesn't affect it's immense applications. You do seriously think majority of Indian buy those latest expensive gadgets?
People still use "button" wala phone to basic calculators, bit games etc. which utilize low end technology.

India has homegrown experience in 800nm, 180 nm &possibly even 90nm chips making, let's apply this and then, try for our 28nm designs.
Hint: My dear friend, 28nm itself is an outdated design and that's the reason China is still spinning around TSMC to have a 10nm chips plant. Modern gadgets use much advanced chips than you think.

The mobile phones which are "MADE in China" are actually "Assembled in China" like we assemble them in India. Taiwan controls biggest share of high end household electronic chips.

Lead Partner Pulls Out of India Fab Plan

One year old news, even older than government's publishing of National Electronics & Semiconductor Policy as well as link I posted above.
Government will invest itself.

Make in India doesn't need Semiconductor Fabs to succeed.

It does.
Because it has immense applications in other fields.

If India even reaches China's manufacturing strength today, where semiconductor manufacturing is minimal, it will be a big deal.

China has become a newcomer in electronics manufacturing while we are still assembling as ToT for low end chips wasn't provided to India due to sanctions.

Now, sanctions are gone. So, not only OEMs are coming to India but India itself holds reasonable experience due to R&D conducted in last decade. It does help to shift people from low end to high end manufacturing jobs further.


As semiconductor market of India will have to be homegrown consumption driven because of India's "outdated" technologies must have to be consumed by Indians so first.

In brief, reaching China's manufacturing level post initiating manufacturing isn't a big deal.

India has absolutely no infrastructure, supply chain, and talent in fabs.

Agreed, a fab without tech park isn't viable, commercially.

AMD is not offering anything substantive. Certainly not money.

Money is issue of Indian Government now.
Regarding AMD, it holds experience in high end techs and lot of talent.

There were two concrete plans to build a fab. One has already ended with JP pulling out. The other may soon meet the same fate.

If privately funded.

Indian bureaucrats have themselves recognized that putting a fab right now is premature.

There are actually two groups, one supporting & other opposing it.
They support a certain type but against the other one.

Like I say that before manufacturing 90-300 mm range chips experience, India must not try for 28nm for now.

9. India has not even finalized the plan, got the money.

I think I have put the report & finalized plan on my thread.

10. No major chip fab, that runs 28 nm today has signed up. Which includes TSMC, UMC, Intel, Samsung, Gloflo.

But it gonna be nice to localize many low end products still in abundance in market.


For example, let's make memory type semiconductors for memory cards.

Where will the required technology and IP come for the 28 nm process?

We do hold one.

How is R and D shifting to India. Will you like to elaborate?

Never shifted, it's been conducted here since long.

China manufacturers more than half of all electronic products in the world.

Not really.

Even if India were to set up a fab. The costs would be higher.

Not really, labour costs in India are a fraction of anywhere else.

 

[Kinetic]

nice replies ^^.

 

[Tangent123]

Anything above 28nm will be a waste, We need a fab to out-date 90% of the fabs in China. This will reduce the trade deficit with China. Improve defense production and quality. Right Now if India wants a Chip we need to design it in a HDL language like Verilog or VHDL then send the design to a semiconductor foundry in Singapore or Taiwan.

We are even importing dolar panels. Semiconductor are miles away. Full ecosystem is to be made

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

@Nilgiri
At first place, it's the problem of management & investment.

Wafer Fabrication Facility at the SemiConductor Laboratory, Chandigarh
Besides that, ever heard of NAVIKA?

​

We have been producing chips without fabs, just not mass producing for civil use, even besides that we've very good design houses outsourcing plenty to foreign firms.

Chinese members seem to obsessed with manufacturing for trolling Indians (not to forget that China license produces British Company ARM's chips itself ), designing houses too matter a lot.
India has many nice design houses who not only served ISRO & DRDO but foreign firms too.
How about having atomic sized semiconductors? Transistors with just 30 silicon atoms?

Pic above: Atomic scale structure of FinFETs and the etching
India is designing chips <7nm and you are taking entire credit away from India because India will need to invest around $100 billions to build manufacturing capability of modern phone chips which it can't afford right now?

Is that fair honestly tell me.
Anyway, OT:
Challenges:

• The initial investment is high, Indian firms won't invest such a big amount without a guarantee for profit.
• The skilled labour issue.

How get over?

• Let the government do entire initial funding! http://m.economictimes.com/industry...al-semiconductor-hub/articleshow/57261190.cms
• As skilled labourers' number has to be increased gradually, you have another solution to make technology parks to concentrate firms (like we did for Software & IT industry, this time for hardware). And simply, it won't make sense if you are making chips in Prantij, screens & cameras in Noida or printed circuits somewhere in Bangalore before you assemble them in New Delhi. Taiwan was successful because Fab & other tech units are side by side.

For all sorts of Noob here, I think I have been tracking the semiconductor issue closer than you since last 5-6 years and may be slightly knowing more than you.

Though, I know that putting link of other forums is violation of rules, I'm still doing it.

http:// defence forumindia. com/forum/threads/indian-electronics-and-semiconductor-manufacturing-industry.77940/page-2

[Remove the spaces and use the link, I hope all of concerns raised by bussard ramjet must have been clarified here].

In the similar way by which SinoSoldier injects common sense to Chinese? Isn't that?

This site is littered with false flaggers, specially Pakistanis pretending to be anyone else.
abcxyz, Bharat Muslim, faithfulguy, Bussard Ramjet, Indian Patriot, endyashainin and a lot more.

I trolled some of em in Hindi/Urdu and got the responses, enough.
If you are still willing to hide faces behind em, go.
I left this site because of them and came back just for semiconductor thread.

These are blatantly incorrect statements:

Some counter points:

1. Producing chips on lab scale is totally different compared to a professional high end foundry.
2. Even here, all the material and equipment to produce chips is imported.
3. India has no fabless company of any standing. NONE.
4. India has design houses yes. Largely of foreign MNCs. But, these design houses usually don't do cutting edge design. And China has more design houses than India, with higher level of talent.
5. You must be kidding when you used China licensing ARM as an insult. The fact is that there are very few architectures and CPU cores that work in the world, and most of the companies go around it. Even Apple, Qualcomm, Mediatek, all license ARM Cores.
6. Even after licensing ARM cores, one needs to design the chip.
7. India already spent 100 million dollars in 2000, for a semi fab, but it all went largely down the drain.

If you doubt any of the above points, do a small google search. Even if you can't find the relevant stats, I will provide you with citations, just ask.

 

[Papa Dragon]

MoUs usually are worth less than the paper they are written on.

Just to illustrate my point about the fraud that a MoU is:

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities...ments-under-Make-in-India/article16776216.ece

Read this very carefully.

The thing is that there are perverse incentives for both sides to sign useless MoUs. Government gets to boast about incoming FDIs and things moving right. About their success. The businesses get to boast about how they are helping the country, and how their businesses are going good. It is a win win.

In fact I believe that they get crores of rupees of free advertisement.

MOUs maybe useless but the TDP government back than was hell bent to bring the fab industry to Hyderabad and they were capable of doing it. How do you think Hyderabad has been an IT even outpacing Bangalore during that period. It was due to TDPs proactive policies to bring in investments, relatively less red tape and providing the ease of doing business. Ever since the Congress came to power in AP, they demanded huge bribes from the companies to set up manufacturing plants. It is pretty much the same reason why Volkswagen shifted its plans from Visakhapatnam to Pune. Thankfully, now there are business friendly governments in both AP & Telangana and many firms have newly started operations in these states. Just need to pursue the South East Asians countries to set up their fab plants ASAP

 

[indiatester]

You also need an R and D in wafer design. How many years of experience you have in VLSI?

I am a designer in this field.

Thats true. I can vouch for him

 

[Srinivas]

28nm is OK, current generation processors from AMD and Intel are 14nm and going to be 8nm in next two years.


We direly need atleast three semi fab before 2020.

Exactly I am working on 14 nm technology.