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Featured Indian diplomats left without listening to Jadhav after being given consular access: FM Qureshi

They'd kill him as he is of no use to them anymore, blame his killing on us, and attack us in the winter while Kashmir is snowed out. Someone should take note of this, but with recent statements and stunts from India it is evident they will try to attack in the winter like they always have (1971, Article 370)
Winter is probably the time when most of the wars have happened in sub-continent. However a war for an "ordinary" citizen has never happened nor will happen. If Indians do try to attack they will most likely use a different reason.

Nice post.
A) If option#4 is executed, what would be India's reaction? Is it worth it for Pak?
B) if option#4 is executed, will be better or worse for pak? Specifically, since german ambassador said that Taliban gave KY to pak, and that he is caught in Afghanistan, and not pakistan.

Are there any examples of spies being executed in (modern world) between civilized nations?? Like between USA& USSR? (I can google, but pointers would be appreciated).
You need to expand your line of thinking.

I don't think Pakistan would care about Indian reaction. In this context, the audience is World.
USA & USSR had much more practical approach than Pakistan & India. Emotions play a big part in later relationship.

To answer your question,
A) India does not do any material damage.
B) India does not do any material damage.

But diplomatic cost for Pakistan at world stage is somewhat steep for both option.
 
Simply put, they left without listening to him because, they are forcing him to initiate a review petition against death sentenced, however, he wants to pursue towards mercy appeal against the verdict, which means that he has accepted that he has been found guilty again laid charges, which Endian still isnt ready to accept.
 
I think at this point everything is theatrics. Indians would know details of Jadhav and would not need to talk to him to find out. Being a "guest" this long, Jadhav would not have much left to disclose to Pakistanis. Now this thing can be closed only in few ways. 1. Release his as a swap for another prisoner. 2. Release him unilaterally. 3 Kill him "accidentally". 4. Execute him as per judgement.

None of which are very good options for Pakistan Government. Can't do 1 & 2. If they do 3. it will not look good internationally. For 4 they need World to be satisfied that due process was used. That is why all this noise about consular access, I think.

[For folks who will ask why 3 & 4 are not good options. India is claiming that he was kidnapped from third country. Global community will not be amenable to supporting that for obvious reasons. Emotions aside look up International Court Verdict.
Unfortunately onus is on Pakistan to prove that he is Guilty (without his confession). Unfortunately they have not done a good job in that. It may be to keep their intelligence assets protected. But it does present a pickle for them.
]
Edited : fixed grammar...

I will say my part simply so that much of ambiguity will be gone.

Every power corridor, the players in spy games & all those big players already know & being shared with enough evidence about KY. Not a single player, I mean even the most & closest or reliable partner of India interfered or will try to pressurize Pakistan by any means or even tried to trick Rawalpindi in favour of India at all. You know why? they all knew it and even India knew it. Then comes all the hogwash attempt of India through Media frenzy to twist the facts and utilize the last resort so that could get anything out of situation to prove themselves innocent. Indian Establishment through media played all the tricks to manipulate and even reported the wrong contexts. ICJ did not overturn or overruled the judgment by Pakistan Military Court instead, it is said that to provide fair proceedings and counselor access. The case in ICJ per Indian pleading, is lost as there comes nothing to say that Kalbhushan is Patel let alone the businessman.

Now comes the point of his fate. Well, it will be decided per rules of the games. Kalbhusahan has already cooperated and didn't want the other treatment at all. He knew it since the day he started his journey as such. In my opinion, even he is alive till the natural death; he is a liability & a living example of Indian espionage in the region. If hanged, that will be in-fact done after due process and parties already knew the truth; will be satisfied further as well in view of legal procedure as well as evidences & proofs etc.



Question is: Are you (Pak nation) willing to see same treatment given to a pak spy? As per pak media, India has already kidnapped a former ISI man, and he is in india. Are you willing to see similar treatment to him?

Pakistan Nation has already seen much more worst treatment to the people booked on the false charges of espionage only to blame & malign. And not just that; they were eliminated so quickly and done within no time. If you are really interested to discuss with interest & facts; just don't ignore what has been happening. The so-called former ISI man you referred, was abducted from Nepal as compare to KJ arrested in Balochistan finally after watch of two years.

That Pakistani Retired Officer just landed, shared his picture from Air Port and then gone. The merit of the case such as abducted from Nepal as compare to arrested inside Pakistan after two years tailing, is incomparable however, the point of tit for tat can be discussed. Since we are discussing the swap thing; there is not a single chat about that. India cannot prove that Pakistani Official was arrested inside India or ever traveled India or any other documentary proof. Indian Agency abducted him only to put pressure on Pakistan & hand over the KJ. If you are going to ask question that why Pakistan didn't take the legal route for Pakistani Official being abducted in India; share me a single statement where India officially declared him arrested which strengthen the argument that it was merely to put pressure & for possible swap.

KJ is already compromised along with the whole team.

When Modi became PM, all this stupidity/naivety ended from India. India has been not been always reactive. I think this is what pak leadership is unable to digest.

What if the same is like India was undetected before but since an impatient yet angry/raging Modi came into power; he gave away a lot due to his grudge & enmity against Pakistan. There are several occasions & many of references that Modi has done far more better damage to India himself than the previous government. Since he can monger for war & killings; doesn't mean others find it appealing. Conclusively, he overly reacted and lost more face. However, since Indians are happy with the development; we are good with it.

As long as KY remains in your custody, that ISI guy will stay in India's custody.

Again, what is the proof or reference that the guy is in Indian Custody.
 
To answer your question,
A) India does not do any material damage.
B) India does not do any material damage.

While I agree with most of you response, I do not agree with the above.

No nation will simply watch & accept their citizen (spy or not) kidnapped from another country and hanged.

There is a cost / reaction for every action.

PS: As an indian, my heart goes out for KY. He is doing his duty for nation. Spies / spying has been present from eternity.

My intention is not to troll.
 
I will say my part simply so that much of ambiguity will be gone.

Every power corridor, the players in spy games & all those big players already know & being shared with enough evidence about KY. Not a single player, I mean even the most & closest or reliable partner of India interfered or will try to pressurize Pakistan by any means or even tried to trick Rawalpindi in favour of India at all. You know why? they all knew it and even India knew it. Then comes all the hogwash attempt of India through Media frenzy to twist the facts and utilize the last resort so that could get anything out of situation to prove themselves innocent. Indian Establishment through media played all the tricks to manipulate and even reported the wrong contexts. ICJ did not overturn or overruled the judgment by Pakistan Military Court instead, it is said that to provide fair proceedings and counselor access. The case in ICJ per Indian pleading, is lost as there comes nothing to say that Kalbhushan is Patel let alone the businessman.
There is nothing that I would want to argue in your response. Only thing I would say (which is also in your response) is that. What happens behind the stage and on the stage can be very different (even opposite) in International diplomacy.
Pakistan's diplomatic rivals would love to have a diplomatic handle on Pakistan on any issue fair or unfair. My observation is that Pakistan Government are aware of this and take this into account in their dealing.
 
While I agree with most of you response, I do not agree with the above.

No nation will simply watch & accept their citizen (spy or not) kidnapped from another country and hanged.

There is a cost / reaction for every action.

PS: As an indian, my heart goes out for KY. He is doing his duty for nation. Spies / spying has been present from eternity.

My intention is not to troll.
You are free to disagree. There is always a cost of any diplomatic action, but I don't think India will do anything significant by itself.
 
I will say my part simply so that much of ambiguity will be gone.

Every power corridor, the players in spy games & all those big players already know & being shared with enough evidence about KY. Not a single player, I mean even the most & closest or reliable partner of India interfered or will try to pressurize Pakistan by any means or even tried to trick Rawalpindi in favour of India at all. You know why? they all knew it and even India knew it. Then comes all the hogwash attempt of India through Media frenzy to twist the facts and utilize the last resort so that could get anything out of situation to prove themselves innocent. Indian Establishment through media played all the tricks to manipulate and even reported the wrong contexts. ICJ did not overturn or overruled the judgment by Pakistan Military Court instead, it is said that to provide fair proceedings and counselor access. The case in ICJ per Indian pleading, is lost as there comes nothing to say that Kalbhushan is Patel let alone the businessman.

Now comes the point of his fate. Well, it will be decided per rules of the games. Kalbhusahan has already cooperated and didn't want the other treatment at all. He knew it since the day he started his journey as such. In my opinion, even he is alive till the natural death; he is a liability & a living example of Indian espionage in the region. If hanged, that will be in-fact done after due process and parties already knew the truth; will be satisfied further as well in view of legal procedure as well as evidences & proofs etc.





Pakistan Nation has already seen much more worst treatment to the people booked on the false charges of espionage only to blame & malign. And not just that; they were eliminated so quickly and done within no time. If you are really interested to discuss with interest & facts; just don't ignore what has been happening. The so-called former ISI man you referred, was abducted from Nepal as compare to KJ arrested in Balochistan finally after watch of two years.

That Pakistani Retired Officer just landed, shared his picture from Air Port and then gone. The merit of the case such as abducted from Nepal as compare to arrested inside Pakistan after two years tailing, is incomparable however, the point of tit for tat can be discussed. Since we are discussing the swap thing; there is not a single chat about that. India cannot prove that Pakistani Official was arrested inside India or ever traveled India or any other documentary proof. Indian Agency abducted him only to put pressure on Pakistan & hand over the KJ. If you are going to ask question that why Pakistan didn't take the legal route for Pakistani Official being abducted in India; share me a single statement where India officially declared him arrested which strengthen the argument that it was merely to put pressure & for possible swap.

KJ is already compromised along with the whole team.



What if the same is like India was undetected before but since an impatient yet angry/raging Modi came into power; he gave away a lot due to his grudge & enmity against Pakistan. There are several occasions & many of references that Modi has done far more better damage to India himself than the previous government. Since he can monger for war & killings; doesn't mean others find it appealing. Conclusively, he overly reacted and lost more face. However, since Indians are happy with the development; we are good with it.



Again, what is the proof or reference that the guy is in Indian Custody.
Your post essentially sums up the differences between pak & india thinking:
For Pak:
A) KJ is caught in baluchistan.
B) Modi is a war monger.
C) Pak is a fair nation that has shown humane treatment to prisoners, while India is exact opposite.
D) It is wrong to kidnap former ISI guy from nepal.

For Indians:
A) KJ is caught in Afghanistan by taliban and delivered to Pak.
B) Modi tried to improve relations with pak, but realised that Pak Army will never allow that. Pak Army even made sure Nawaz Sharif is not returned to power (whatever reason). So, Modi stopped making efforts. Modi is the biggest biggest biggest misconception that PDF clings to / desperately wants to believe. Modi's interest is economy, and correcting historical wrongs.
C) Pak has been cruel many times to Indian armed forces. Taking away severed heads as prizes. Brutally torturing young Army officer during kargil etc etc. If India does similar, it is only in response.
D) it is ok to kidnap that ISI official from nepal. He can be swapped or at least pak can be "asked" to treat KJ fairly, as we have a former ISI man in custody.
 
So they wanted to hug (and poison) him?
Wouldn't that be a diplomatic mess?
I am sure they would be ok, if he dies rather than be in prison, since that will give them a diplomatic leverage to say Pakistan killed him in their custody.

However why would they kill him so directly? He lives...he dies..the damage is already done.
 
Wouldn't that be a diplomatic mess?
I am sure they would be ok, if he dies rather than be in prison, since that will give them a diplomatic leverage to say Pakistan killed him in their custody.

However why would they kill him so directly? He lives...he dies..the damage is already done.

You answered the question in the sentence prior yourself.

Hindutva are struggling and looking to cash anything they can.
 
You answered the question in the sentence prior yourself.
Hindutva are struggling and looking to cash anything they can.
Apologies if my earlier post was well not articulated.
There is no diplomatic leverage, if they are implicated in it. If they are not, only then it is a diplomatic leverage.

On second part of your post, not fair of you to use a logical fallacy. I am not going into the inaccuracy or accuracy of that statement. That is a discussion for some other thread.
[Edited a horrible typo :-)]
 
Apologies if my earlier post was well not articulated.
There is no diplomatic leverage, if they are implicated in it. If they are not, only then it is a diplomatic leverage.

On second part of your post, not fair of you to use a logical fallacy. I am not going into the inaccuracy or accuracy of that statement. That is a discussion for some other thread.
[Edited a horrible typo :-)]

We are not going to give Indians any opportunities ... they wanted access, they got it on our terms. That's it. No drama coming from it for us, and a few news articles on Indian media crying have no relevance.
 
We are not going to give Indians any opportunities ... they wanted access, they got it on our terms. That's it. No drama coming from it for us, and a few news articles on Indian media crying have no relevance.

Ok.

The question is - Did pak promise to give access to KJ without video recording & without presence of pak personnel in the same room & not mandating English language as medium of communication, and then did not deliver that?

If Pak did not promise those, then end of discussion.
 
Ok.

The question is - Did pak promise to give access to KJ without video recording & without presence of pak personnel in the same room & not mandating English language as medium of communication, and then did not deliver that?

If Pak did not promise those, then end of discussion.

If Pakistan had made such 'promises, the letter from our FO containing would have been released on Indian media.

End of discussion.
 

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