Indian deputy consul general arrested in US on visa fraud charges

[manlion]

US to proceed with Devyani's prosecution; won't apologise - Rediff.com India News

 

[Yeti]

There must be some yanks we can plant with some class A drugs and throw them in Tihar jail and use that as a tool to get our diplomat back. I watched a good move on a yank thrown into a Turkish jail it was pretty messed up what he had to go through to say the least.

 

[anonymus]

Why do many think that it is a god given right for the diplomats to have a maid or a nanny? Not everyone in US can afford a maid - even the people who earn twice or more than what the consular official under question earn. They end up paying $1000-2000 for day care per child and spend additional dollars for the evenings and weekends if they want baby-sitters and do all the remaining household chores by themselves. And men are pretty handy at doing basic fixes at home as the labor is expensive. Even Indians living here in US do the same. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

You seem to be repeating same crap again and again.

Diplomats does not require a maid as a matter of luxury but necessity.Various duties discharged by diplomats in their private capacity are semi official in nature. On top of it, time of a diplomat is valuable enough that he/she should not be made to do domestic work.

Imagine a situation in which an ambassador has to devote 2-3 hours a day for household chores.It would mean that those are 2-3 hours that he has not spent working or socialising which is a "job" of a diplomat.

Diplomats could not afford to pay minimum wages to their maids upfront because they themselves make less than the specified minimum wage. They make less than specified minimum wage because constitution of India states that no public servant could be paid better remuneration than president of India.Indian government has compensated for the handicap by providing facilities in kind to people posted abroad.Similar approach was employed for maids.The complication arose because since 2011, US state government stopped counting perks in salary of a domestic help.

Till now there was a sort of tacit arrangement whereas US embassy did not questioned low basic pay provided by Indian diplomats and in return India did not applied any of it's uselessly stupid law on US Diplomats.Arrest of this diplomat was sort of betrayal of that understanding and tantamount to entrapment. If US wanted to hold the law to letter,it begs a question as to how come immigration department of US okayed the visa application of the maid when her postulated income in US would be more than that of the diplomat.

While the minimum wage in NY may be $4800 a month, the maid was provided with Proper Housing,medical insurance,Food,water, clothing and electricity along with 2 paid ticket to India every year apart from close to $1500. For those who believe that this is an irrational wage, try living at $5000 in NY and see what you are left with after spending out of your pocket on these expenses.( even ignoring that facilities provided by embassies like housing are of much better quality than those of open market.This is not the instance of a single diplomat.If this law is applied in letter, whole of the Indian delegation to US would end up in jail. Not only that delegation of every developing country would follow suit as not even a single country adheres to this law in letter as it is impossible to be adhered to.

Also you an @Solomon2 should define your criterion for slavery.By US's minimum wage criterion, Indian chief justice, comptroller and auditor general, service chiefs, Prime minister, DG's of all states and every government official barring president and vice president would qualify as slaves.This lady was never forced to work as maid and was free to leave for India whenever she wanted ( unless US wanted to give her a working Visa ) and was compensated adequately when non-monetary benefits are taken into account.You people seem to be making a joke of concept of slavery to sound cliche.The reason that the plight of maid has not found traction in India is not because Indians believe that Diplomats have divine right to exploit maids but due to the fact that even the current salary of the maid is higher than that earned by middle class Indians and not to mention while having zero out of pocket expense.



India, till date has not taken any disproportionate action in this matter. The only thing that India has done is that it has withdrawn extra privileges accorded to US diplomats over and above those that are accorded to their Indian counterparts.Since you people are so fond of throwing book at Indian mission, you should be cheering these steps of India.

 

[Sashan]

You seem to be repeating same crap again and again.

Diplomats does not require a maid as a matter of luxury but necessity.Various duties discharged by diplomats in their private capacity are semi official in nature. On top of it, time of a diplomat is valuable enough that he/she should not be made to do domestic work.

Imagine a situation in which an ambassador has to devote 2-3 hours a day for household chores.It would mean that those are 2-3 hours that he has not spent working or socialising which is a "job" of a diplomat.

Diplomats could not afford to pay minimum wages to their maids upfront because they themselves make less than the specified minimum wage. They make less than specified minimum wage because constitution of India states that no public servant could be paid better remuneration than president of India.Indian government has compensated for the handicap by providing facilities in kind to people posted abroad.Similar approach was employed for maids.The complication arose because since 2011, US state government stopped counting perks in salary of a domestic help.

Till now there was a sort of tacit arrangement whereas US embassy did not questioned low basic pay provided by Indian diplomats and in return India did not applied any of it's uselessly stupid law on US Diplomats.Arrest of this diplomat was sort of betrayal of that understanding and tantamount to entrapment. If US wanted to hold the law to letter,it begs a question as to how come immigration department of US okayed the visa application of the maid when her postulated income in US would be more than that of the diplomat.

While the minimum wage in NY may be $4800 a month, the maid was provided with Proper Housing,medical insurance,Food,water, clothing and electricity along with 2 paid ticket to India every year apart from close to $1500. For those who believe that this is an irrational wage, try living at $5000 in NY and see what you are left with after spending out of your pocket on these expenses.( even ignoring that facilities provided by embassies like housing are of much better quality than those of open market.This is not the instance of a single diplomat.If this law is applied in letter, whole of the Indian delegation to US would end up in jail. Not only that delegation of every developing country would follow suit as not even a single country adheres to this law in letter as it is impossible to be adhered to.

Also you an @Solomon2 should define your criterion for slavery.By US's minimum wage criterion, Indian chief justice, comptroller and auditor general, service chiefs, Prime minister, DG's of all states and every government official barring president and vice president would qualify as slaves.This lady was never forced to work as maid and was free to leave for India whenever she wanted ( unless US wanted to give her a working Visa ) and was compensated adequately when non-monetary benefits are taken into account.You people seem to be making a joke of concept of slavery to sound cliche.The reason that the plight of maid has not found traction in India is not because Indians believe that Diplomats have divine right to exploit maids but due to the fact that even the current salary of the maid is higher than that earned by middle class Indians and not to mention while having zero out of pocket expense.



India, till date has not taken any disproportionate action in this matter. The only thing that India has done is that it has withdrawn extra privileges accorded to US diplomats over and above those that are accorded to their Indian counterparts.Since you people are so fond of throwing book at Indian mission, you should be cheering these steps of India.

Sigh - nothing new here except for the same rant which has been discussed numerous times to death in the past couple of weeks. Bring in something new, we will discuss.

 

[Solomon2]

You seem to be repeating same crap again and again.

Repetition appears to be necessary.

Diplomats does not require a maid as a matter of luxury but necessity.Various duties discharged by diplomats in their private capacity are semi official in nature. On top of it, time of a diplomat is valuable enough that he/she should not be made to do domestic work.

Diplomats yes, consuls no.

Indian government has compensated for the handicap by providing facilities in kind to people posted abroad.Similar approach was employed for maids.The complication arose because since 2011, US state government stopped counting perks in salary of a domestic help.

Why should consuls live in Manhattan rather than in cheaper suburbs? I really do know an ambassador who lives in a rent-stabilized one-bedroom apartment himself while his wife and son live outside the city. Metro-North rail service plus the subway are sufficient for their needs.

The reason that the plight of maid has not found traction in India is not because Indians believe that Diplomats have divine right to exploit maids but due to the fact that even the current salary of the maid is higher than that earned by middle class Indians and not to mention while having zero out of pocket expense.

How do you know maid had zero out of pocket expenses?

India, till date has not taken any disproportionate action in this matter. The only thing that India has done is that it has withdrawn extra privileges accorded to US diplomats over and above those that are accorded to their Indian counterparts.

You're talking about two different things. India can withdraw extra privileges yet the action can still be disproportional.

Since you people are so fond of throwing book at Indian mission, you should be cheering these steps of India.

I think the flip side to this Administration is that it may not want U.S. officials to enjoy "extra privileges" abroad. Remember, the prosecutor and president spent their childhood in "Third World" countries, so they may detest such things as much as you do.

 

[Developereo]

Diplomats does not require a maid as a matter of luxury but necessity.Various duties discharged by diplomats in their private capacity are semi official in nature. On top of it, time of a diplomat is valuable enough that he/she should not be made to do domestic work.

Diplomats yes, consuls no.

The US will lose the case.

Apparently, the maid had her visa issued on a diplomatic passport. By issuing her the visa on such a passport, the State department implicitly accepted her duties as being part of the Indian diplomatic mission.

 

[Solomon2]

The US will lose the case.

Apparently, the maid had her visa issued on a diplomatic passport. By issuing her the visa on such a passport, the State department implicitly accepted her duties as being part of the Indian diplomatic mission.

Maid had A-3 visa. The kind of passport India granted her isn't relevant in int'l or U.S. law.

 

[Developereo]

Maid had A-3 visa. The kind of passport India granted her isn't relevant in int'l or U.S. law.

A-3 is the visa for personal assistants of (A-1, A-2) diplomats and her passport was a diplomatic passport.

I believe there is sufficient wiggle room here for a skillful lawyer to squeeze out an immunity defence. Especially since, as I mentioned in the other thread, the State department wants the same thing.

 

[anonymus]

Diplomats yes, consuls no.

It is only a technical difference.A Counsel general and his deputy "is" a diplomat and enjoys immunity except in case of grave crimes committed in personal capacity.Even in these cases, diplomats are usually not arrested and are only expelled with their home country punishing them for their crimes.

Finding loopholes in concept of immunity by innovative interpretation is something which a country does when it deliberately wants to censure or humiliate other country and irrespective of what you believe, this is a simple matter of pay dispute. Even your department of justice is stating it as such.There is no evidence of physical, psychological or sexual abuse whatsoever.

Why should consuls live in Manhattan rather than in cheaper suburbs?

Indian counsel lives in Manhattan in a property "owned" by government of India without paying any rent similarly as your counsel in Delhi lives on a property "owned" by US government which is situated in such a costly locality than even a multi-millionaire could not afford rent in that locality.

And regarding location, you seem to be ignorant of fact that Indian mission to US is 129 years old, a time in which fastest mode of transport was a horse and everyone has to stay close to his place of work.

The counsels do not have a choice as to where they want to live. They could either live in government provided accommodation or try to find an accommodation on your own which would be impossible at a salary which is less than half of minimum wage provided by your host country.

An additional danger of renting an accommodation is that of exchange fluctuation.Diplomats are paid in Indian rupees. In 2011 the equivalent salary along with allowances of the said diplomat was $4100. Due to recent depreciation of rupee, it has reduced to less than $3000.

In India, as in most of the countries, a public servant could not be paid more than head of the state.In India this salary is र150,000/- pm which is equivalent to $2427/- pm at current exchange rate.

http://m.paycheck.in/main/salary/salarycheckers/politicians-vip-paycheck

I really do know an ambassador who lives in a rent-stabilized one-bedroom apartment himself while his wife and son live outside the city.

This is pure baloney. Ambassadors don't live outside embassy. Their residence is contained within Embassy complex. If the Ambassador has chosen to live outside for personal reasons, that is his personal choice and immaterial to topic.

How do you know maid had zero out of pocket expenses?

Because all basic necessities were provided to her. This is the fact that even NYC DA is not contesting. They are simply refusing to count anything except cash payment in wages.

At minimum wage, the best you could aspire for if decent meal and a trailer to live in.Your DA would have had a moral ground of prosecution if there was a genuine exploitation.Currently, he has a legal but no moral ground and even that legality is due to innovative interpretation of immunity and gravity of a case.

You're talking about two different things. India can withdraw extra privileges yet the action can still be disproportional.

The action is certainly not disproportionate. As i have pointed out in previous post and this post too, the action was not borne out of the fact that counsel is a weasel who want to rob maid of her rightful earnings but due to interplay between Indian laws and practical necessities.

It is not a case of this diplomat but that of principles.Should India abandon it's diplomats who are guilty of a crime which took place because it is legally impossible to provide even living wages to Representatives of Country even if governments want to do that, making GoI morally responsible for current quagmire.

And add to this the fact that it is common practice among "all" diplomats of "all" developing countries.Indian deputy counsel was singled out to be made as an example because it would have given a boost to political career of local prosecutor as he could prove that he is more American than Americans by prosecuting diplomat of his country of origin.

I think the flip side to this Administration is that it may not want U.S. officials to enjoy "extra privileges" abroad. Remember, the prosecutor and president spent their childhood in "Third World" countries, so they may detest such things as much as you do.

The extra privileges that your diplomats enjoy are not just personal privileges but official one's too. Your counsel general is accorded full immunity and your diplomats are provided with passes which they can use to directly board a flight without going through security and other clearances.

If this privilege is withdrawn, your diplomats would have to check in 3 hours before a flight departs in case of domestic and 5 hours in case of international like all other passengers.This would seriously curtail mobility of your mission as someone posted in India has to deal with Nepal, Bhutan and Bangladesh due to intertwined politics of these countries. Withdrawal of privilege has already lead to cancellation of Nepal tour of your Ambassador.

Add to it the fact that Indian action could set a precedence for developing countries which would be the primary victim of your " we would go by the letter of law " approach.US enjoys extra diplomatic privilege in every country, not just India.

 

[manlion]

US prosecutor Preet Bharara opposes Devyani's plea - Rediff.com India News